Inmotion V13 Speculation

[alcatraz]

My vote is on modular battery packs. You bring as much as you need. That way they can get it to 30-35kg for the shorter rides.

[alcatraz]

The first pack is high current. Add on packs are high capacity.

[UniVehje]

6 hours ago, wstuart said:

I think when you have a motor that powerful, the range depends highly on speed. It lets you either sip those electrons or chug them.

Yes, of course it does, on any motor and wheel. You would compare range riding at same speed. 

Using Gotway’s calculation method, this is just 400Wh or 11% smaller than the biggest batteries out there. The next option is 30s10p, 300 cells and 4000Wh. Another 4.2 kg. That’s a heavy price to pay for claiming another top spec number. Useful for very few riders and very rarely. But everyone would have to carry the weight on every ride. I think they made a good choice on this. 

Actually, I would like to see a 2220 Wh version with a lighter motor and 18X3” tire. Would make sense for majority of potential customers. 

[That Guy]

I agree, I’d rather take a fast charging smaller battery. In today’s battery video the picture of the phone app showed charging current 13.8A, and looks like 80% was reached within 1.5h. I love it!

[Funky]

10 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Then what is? Sherman has the same capacity and it’s definitely a long range cruiser. 18XL is also a long range cruiser and this is double of that. Has the standard for long range increased recently? I bet I will do easily 200 km on V13. 

Sherman Max has more. Same time being 100v motor. I was just saying that 126v motor will eat up the batteries faster.. So it will have less range than OG sherman for sure. ~20% less range i think.

Yeah.. I know 18xl is long range cruiser. (I can get ~60-70km out of mine.) I daily need most ~20km.  (I personally would give 40% of battery capacity for lighter wheel. Because i don't need range.) Sure i could have gotten 18L. But comparing prices, etc.. 18xl was better deal.

[Funky]

43 minutes ago, That Guy said:

I agree, I’d rather take a fast charging smaller battery. In today’s battery video the picture of the phone app showed charging current 13.8A, and looks like 80% was reached within 1.5h. I love it!

Amen brotha.

I think most would like to have lighter wheels, that you could simply charge up fast. You could drive in any restoran eat a diner and in that time wheel has fully charged.. Or ride to job, charge the wheel and in 1-2hrs it's full. -You would not need big capacity batteries anymore, even 1550Wh will do. Heck most city corners have a power outlet. You could stop 10-20min and get 10-20% battery back. <<< That would be dream come true!!!

Also being smaller capacity battery - you could charge it up faster. If 3000Wh goes 1-2hrs. 1500Wh will go 30min to 1hr. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Funky

[UniVehje]

21 minutes ago, Funky said:

I was just saying that 126v motor will eat up the batteries faster.

Will it really? I still haven’t seen a clear explanation of how this works. If ridden with exact same speed, rider and terrain, would higher voltage really consume more? It would use lower amperage and thus have slightly less wasted to resistance. But what else is there to affect efficiency?

[supercurio]

@wstuart could be to reduce the width, but the difference is so minimal. Like when you think that the OG Sherman was upgraded from 18650 to 21700 cells, 3200 Wh class to 3600 Wh class with zero change of external body dimensions.

Possibly when they froze the spec everyone was focusing on the Sherman with 240x18650, and they decided to copy that as the gold standard. Except it shifted since.

The wheel is not out yet and I'm already thinking about waiting for the obvious V13F with 3600 Wh class to buy (or less capacity but at least the same amount of cells, in high drain variant)

Because the battery sag at the top speed of my Sherman Max is pretty significant... and it's only 63 kph! (GPS) 

Edited July 24, 2022 by supercurio

[techyiam]

16 minutes ago, Funky said:

... i don't need range.) Sure i could have gotten 18L. But comparing prices, etc.. 18xl was better deal.

Wait a minute. Let's look at the logic here. You don't need the extra battery capacity, which has a cost of agility when riding, and higher exertion while carrying it up stairs, but you bought it because financially, it was a better deal. I grant you that the 18XL will be better at resale, but value wise from the rider POV, are you sure 18XL is the better value for you, because you don't have use for the extra capacity. Actually, I could see you justifying getting the 18XL if you were worrying about cutouts, though.

[supercurio]

16 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Will it really? I still haven’t seen a clear explanation of how this works. If ridden with exact same speed, rider and terrain, would higher voltage really consume more? It would use lower amperage and thus have slightly less wasted to resistance. But what else is there to affect efficiency?

Typically, a step down converter becomes less efficient the higher voltage conversion ratio is.

So if you have 84V battery and you're driving the motor at 45V to ride at 35 kph, you'll have lower losses than if you do the same from a 126V battery.

But that's the generalities, it might not apply to all designs.

[techyiam]

20 minutes ago, supercurio said:

The wheel is not out yet and I'm already thinking about waiting for the obvious V13F with 3600 Wh class to buy (or less capacity but at least the same amount of cells, in high drain variant)

You don't sound like you have high weight euc phobia, and maybe cost too. 

Is it possible that Inmotion found going back to 18650 cells is the more cost efficient route to 10,000 W peak?

Edited July 24, 2022 by techyiam

[supercurio]

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You don't sound like you have high weight euc phobia. 

Hehe you're right, I'm unable to identify differences in riding characteristics between the Max (got in on Friday) and the OG Sherman I've been riding for a year.

Actually there's a some difference but it's because I have a street tire on the OG and still the stock knobby on the Max.

The choice of tire has a huge impact on riding characteristics, whereas a difference of even 30% mass - especially if centered the same - is almost indistinguishable.

Therefore I'd expect the same for a "V13F" vs a V13. It has massive motor, 22" tire... Will be impractical to carry anyway, so might as well have properly dimensioned battery in power and capacity. I'm skeptical the V13 does for the target top speed.

Edited July 24, 2022 by supercurio

[UniVehje]

24 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Typically, a step down converter becomes less efficient the higher voltage conversion ratio is.

So if you have 84V battery and you're driving the motor at 45V to ride at 35 kph, you'll have lower losses than if you do the same from a 126V battery.

But that's the generalities, it might not apply to all designs.

Do you know how big this effect is in practice? And compared to lower resistance due to lower amperage?

[meepmeepmayer]

If you do (slightly) more honest math like Inmotion does with the V12 (saying 1776Wh instead of 1800Wh), then the 3200Wh of the Sherman would be 3108Wh. But here they say 3024Wh, which comes out pretty exactly to 3400mAh cells instead of 3500mAh cells.

Whatever that means. Weird choice? Supply constraints?

[techyiam]

17 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

But here they say 3024Wh, which comes out pretty exactly to 3400mAh cells instead of 3500mAh cells.

But you are using 3.7 V for nominal voltage. For example, for Samsung 35E, the nominal voltage is 3.6 V. And thus, for 3024 Wh, wouldn't 3500 mAh cells be the result.

[meepmeepmayer]

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

But you are using 3.7 V for nominal voltage. For example, for Samsung 35E, the nominal voltage is 3.6 V. And thus, for 3024 Wh, wouldn't 3500 mAh cells be the result.

Yea you are right, that comes out to exactly 3024Wh. That must be what they are doing.

Edited July 24, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[Planemo]

I see people are talking 3500mah. So not using 21700 cells then? I thought all the decent 18650's had dried up at the moment.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

I see people are talking 3500mah. So not using 21700 cells then? I thought all the decent 18650's had dried up at the moment.

That is what I read, in particular, that Leaper Kim was having difficulty securing decent 18650 cells, to the extent that they had to stop their Sherman production line. Then later, they decided to replace the Sherman with an updated version (Sherman  Max) that uses the 21700 cells.

My guess is that now Inmotion must have found sources who can provide enough decent 18650 cells to mass produce the V13.

Edited July 24, 2022 by techyiam

[UniVehje]

These were just posted on Inmotion Telegram channel. 

[Freestyler]

Google translated photo

[UniVehje]

What does non-tracheal shock mean? Sounds fancy.

And electronically self-opening pedals? Really? Sounds over engineered. Never had problems with flipping them open with my foot. Just one thing more to break. 

[techyiam]

14 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

And electronically self-opening pedals? Really? Sounds over engineered. Never had problems with flipping them open with my foot. Just one thing more to break. 

Exactly. I worried about the self-opening pedals breaking down. Just like A.I. I do wish they don't put in unnecessary complications, which could cause headaches down the road.

Edited July 24, 2022 by techyiam

[Funky]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Wait a minute. Let's look at the logic here. You don't need the extra battery capacity, which has a cost of agility when riding, and higher exertion while carrying it up stairs, but you bought it because financially, it was a better deal. I grant you that the 18XL will be better at resale, but value wise from the rider POV, are you sure 18XL is the better value for you, because you don't have use for the extra capacity. Actually, I could see you justifying getting the 18XL if you were worrying about cutouts, though.

I was buying it from walk in store. And 18xl was the "lightest" 18" wheel next to 18L  ~4kg difference in weight was nothing to me. And yeah, i bought it also for safety. 280lbs rider.

Btw price difference where ~300$. 1550$/18L vs 1850$/18XL. It was no brainer to get 18XL.. (I think most would agree.. Even if you don't need range.) Also that moment they didn't have 18L in stock. I would have been pretty happy with 16s - but let's be real here, it literally would be to "small" for me.  

[Funky]

1 minute ago, techyiam said:

Exactly. I worried about the self-opening pedals breaking down. Just like A.I. I do wish they don't put in unnecessary complications, which would cause headaches down the road.

I hope they offer an option in app to disable that shit.. Simply open with foot/hand - much better option. I don't want a ducking lambo with automatically opening "pedals".. 

[UniVehje]

One more