Inmotion V13 Speculation

[UniVehje]

7 hours ago, That Guy said:

From MADpack's video:

1. The battery will be able to do 200km of range most likely to be no less than 3200wh,

2. Potentially modular design of the battery - ability to connect extra battery (like 1700 base and 3200 top),

3. 160kg maximum weight of the rider,

4. Err.... 34kg (?!?) weight (what the?.... is it for the "base"/small battery configuration?),

5. Suspension only wheel (and no mentioning of "two wheels"),

6. (observed in the teaser video) No cutoff even at 143kph,

7. Maximum (riding?) speed 100kph (43kph safety margin).

Thoughts? :-)

Madpack usually has a lot of bad/wrong info on his videos. I wouldn't trust this too much. He may have had a similar meeting with Inmotion as @Unventor but his info is also different. 

If it's really 34 kg, then Inmotion is pulling a marketing stunt on us. Not the first time companies use this tactic. If the coming product is going to be pretty expensive or heavy, first leak info that it will be extremely expensive/heavy and when its announced at lower weight/price that will not feel so bad anymore. Maybe that's why they didn't actually say how heavy the motor is? To get us to guess the wheel weight at 60 kg and then announce it much lighter? They would need to have some good tech behind making this performance with only a little heavier motor than competitors. One can always hope!

[That Guy]

33 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Madpack usually has a lot of bad/wrong info on his videos. I wouldn't trust this too much.

Oh, you are bursting my bubble! :-) I was hoping to see that wet dream tonight of me riding for 200km on a 34kg 22” wheel at 90kph… :-))

[Freeforester]

32 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Madpack usually has a lot of bad/wrong info on his videos

I have to agree, I’ve always been left with the impression that his presentations are made more for the consumption of the (possibly younger) impressionable, rather than the knowledgeable.       That he doesn’t appear to follow the latest news and/or events as provided either on this site or output by various altogether more serious and knowledgeable sources of such information only serves to reinforce (in the mind of this observer) an image of salesman -type ‘influencer’ rather than anyone with a more refined grasp of the travails of those who are altogether generally viewed as more reliable sources of information of worth.  Season, to taste!

[mike_bike_kite]

10 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

24 * 8 * 3.7V * 5000mAh = 3552Wh

I really appreciate you explaining all that. It helped me immensely. I know I'm being pedantic but using mAh is confusing as the equations don't work. Would it just be better to use Ah in all your equations?

24 * 8 * 3.7 * 5 = 3552.

Edited July 19, 2022 by mike_bike_kite

[yoos]

9 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Would it just be better to use Ah in all your equations?

As a scientist I have to agree, however laymen are used to mAh (as seen on phones, powerbanks, scooters etc) and might not understand that mAh=10^-3Ah. That's why it's more understandable for everyone in mAh. I also would prefer m/s for speed vs km/h and Joules for energy instead of WattHours  (at work I actually use Kelvins or electronVolts for energy). However watthours are more relatable to everyday life (e.g. 40Wh is a 40W bulb working for an hour)

P.S. And by the way @meepmeepmayer's equation do work, so I am not sure why you say they don't. It's just that writing 5000mAh is more cumbersome than the equivalent 5Ah.

Edited July 19, 2022 by yoos

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, yoos said:

P.S. And by the way @meepmeepmayer's equation do work, so I am not sure why you say they don't. It's just that writing 5000mAh is more cumbersome than the equivalent 5Ah.

It works as long as you know you have to use Ah in the equation and not mAh but that's not what the original equation stated.

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, That Guy said:

Oh, you are bursting my bubble! :-) I was hoping to see that wet dream tonight of me riding for 200km on a 34kg 22” wheel at 90kph… :-))

First off at this point the EUC weight is guess work. 

Second a 200km range has historical been messure for 20kmh with a 60-65kg rider at non aggressiv ride style. 

The faster you ride the sooner you deplet the energy aka empty the battery. 

Now at weight guessing. The initial numbers I heard of (from Inmotion) that indicate a heavy wheel. This means more heavy than V11. V11 has a plastic frame/shell structure. The Challanger will be metal. I doubt the will go carbon fiber as it was metal what I saw. 

So there are some practical numbers that are very hard to do anything at right now. 

If you want more power from a motor it will be heavier. You need stronger magnets which means bigger = heavier. Also stronger wiring to withstand the increase of energy in the copper wires inside the motor = more weight.

Then we talk battery. More Wh and a cell configuration to draw from the total numbers of cells mean many cells = more weight. At lease until next battery generation is mainstream. 

So to reduce weight one might miss out trolley/kickstand/speakers/light configuration. 

Bigger tire and that is stronger to support the weight is normally heavy tires. One could consider tubeless to save the tube weight but a 22" vs 18" would mean more weight too. 

So my quess is a wheel that is 30-50% more weight than the V11. It could be more depending on what battery configuration they settle on. That said I doubt a lesser than 3000 Wh batter do not make sense if you force a strong more aggressive and want to avoid cut outs which means 2nd hall sensor would make no sense either. 

Now with raw material prices going up, this is why I seriously doubt the Challanger will become mainstream. 

It is also why I didn't expect Inmotion to go into the top speed competition. Yet they chose to do this. 

Now why I thing they got surprised when I said I love my V11 (s as I have 2) is most Youtubes need clicks and that means sensations. And several love high speed. 

@Marty Backebeing one of the few that in my book talk sensable speed because he cruise about and like range.

I guess it all comes down to having a practical transport that a motor bike cannot give. 

A motorbike have both range and speed and weight matters less as you don't bring it up 4 floors into you hall way. 

One can dream a lot but at some point the valley and physic pull you back to reality. 

 

[That Guy]

Is it true that they are now changing the name from Challenger to something else?…

https://www.facebook.com/groups/inmotioneuc/permalink/2879035295724761/?fs=e&s=cl

[Robse]

7 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Is it true that they are now changing the name from Challenger to something else?…

https://www.facebook.com/groups/inmotioneuc/permalink/2879035295724761/?fs=e&s=cl

Ohh.. i see, it must have some kind of defect then?  I have seen that before, was that in 20 or 22 ? ehhh...

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

So my quess is a wheel that is 30-50% more weight than the V11. It could be more depending on what battery configuration they settle on. That said I doubt a lesser than 3000 Wh batter do not make sense if you force a strong more aggressive and want to avoid cut outs which means 2nd hall sensor would make no sense either. 

Now with raw material prices going up, this is why I seriously doubt the Challanger will become mainstream. 

It is also why I didn't expect Inmotion to go into the top speed competition. Yet they chose to do this. 

I get the impression that Sherman Max is selling well. They are sold out at eWheels, and it is the 2nd best selling euc at EEVEES, right behind the V11. The weight of the V11 is listed as 59.5 lbs, and 86 lbs for the Sherman Max. So, based on your estimate, that gives a weight of ~90 lbs for the V13. The Master weighs in at 79.5 lbs, and the S22 at 77 lbs. They both weigh more than the V11. But yet, I get the impression that the preorders for both the S22 and the Master are doing well. The thing is, based on sales volume, would you consider Sherman Max mainstream? If the V13 does indeed come in at 90 lbs, I would say, weight wise, they could be classified in the same class. Price wise, Sherman Max is up there with the Commander and Monster Pro. In short, the Sherman Max is heavy, and pricey (among the highest priced), yet it can sell well.

I think there is another way to look at the V13. And that is, the Challenger is a Sherman Max class wheel that has more robust components, and more headroom to play with. You can ride the beeps in the extreme, or just enjoy the peace of mind.

Will the V13 sell better than the Sherman Max, only time will tell. But if the V13 can indeed come in at ~ 90lbs, and the price not out of this world, I can see the V13 can become as niche as the Sherman Max.

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

Now why I thing they got surprised when I said I love my V11 (s as I have 2) is most Youtubes need clicks and that means sensations. And several love high speed. 

@Marty Backebeing one of the few that in my book talk sensable speed because he cruise about and like range.

I guess it all comes down to having a practical transport that a motor bike cannot give. 

Your posts in this thread give me the impression that you prefer Inmotion to build a new, or an upgraded V11 class wheel. You need another communication channel to convey this to Inmotion. Inmotion has decided to build the V13, and it is not a V11 class wheel. The CEO of Inmotion was interviewed by Rose at Euco in 2020. They are more or less following that roadmap hinted in the interview. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by techyiam

[meepmeepmayer]

5 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It works as long as you know you have to use Ah in the equation and not mAh but that's not what the original equation stated.

Offtopic: The equation always works, it's just

battery energy content = number of cells * energy per cell, which expands to (number of p's * number of s's ) * (nominal voltage of a cell * capacity per cell),

you just need to keep track of your units everywhere so things end up being Wh, because that's what you want in the end.

E.g. 5Ah = 5000mAh = 5000 *(1/1000)*Ah [that's what milli means], 1V*1A=1W, 30*8 cells * 5000mAh/cell ("per cell") cancels out the "cell" unit. Treat units like numbers. The V comes from the nominal cell voltage, the A from the cell capacity, the h too, there's your Wh, and the other units cancel out (they better, the little beasts, or you need to fix it with the appropriate conversion factor).

I also dislike the mAh specs instead of Ah, but that's what people do.

Edited July 19, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[Freeforester]

2 hours ago, That Guy said:

Is it true that they are now changing the name from Challenger to something else?…

https://www.facebook.com/groups/inmotioneuc/permalink/2879035295724761/?fs=e&s=cl

This is about the best idea about the new wheel I’ve heard so far, Challenger was always, but always going to have negative connotations and resonance, especially in the US market, possibly the largest of all the marketplaces.
 

My choice would be ‘Conqueror’, which has a more positive and ‘aspiring to greatness’ feeling to it, and carries much less baggage in the near historical context; thereafter it is merely up to the company to deliver, which they seem rather keen to do.

Let’s see!

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Freeforester

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

13 hours ago, wstuart said:

I think Wrongway makes a good point:  Who would ride like this and where?  There's videos of brave folks who cruise at 45mph on mountain roads, but I think thats the exception.  Also those guys usually like to jump off of stuff and do stunt offroad riding.  I agree with wrongway that this would be too big and heavy for thar. 

 

I think the distinction between riders has been visible in group rides.  I've been on a couple large group rides where most of us stay in the bike lane.  A handful of riders take their Commander HS wheels out into the street and go 40mph with traffic.  That's just not me.  I guess there are some roads that are empty and long enough where 40+mph is fun and useful, but I agree with Adam that the 16x 18xl and V11 meets the needs of most of the market.

Now I'm being a total hypocrite.  I'll probably want one and might even get one, just not the first batch.  

 

I’m one of them after coming from riding sportbikes for many many years I want something faster than the 45 mph that I currently hit on my wheel ..70-75mph will be perfect !!!

🤘🥳🤘

[techyiam]

42 minutes ago, Dosingpsychedelics said:

I’m one of them after coming from riding sportbikes for many many years I want something faster than the 45 mph that I currently hit on my wheel ..70-75mph will be perfect !!

If you want 75 mph top speed, you may need a faster wheel (higher free-spin speed, and perhaps even more power)l for more headroom. You have to factor in aerodynamic drag, bumps, emergency braking, and hills etc.

Edited July 19, 2022 by techyiam

[Paul g]

Commenter: 

InMotion:

[Whalesmash]

These names are all too serious. Eagle? Master? Commander? How about something a little more lighthearted? I vote for Inmotion V13 Sausage. Nothing quite like a 88mph sausage.

[wstuart]

What if we named it the "V13" ?....

It worked for the v8, v10, v11 and v12.....

Edited July 19, 2022 by wstuart

[Mango]

They should hold a naming contest. Give away a free V11 as prize for the winning entry.

[onizukagto]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

Commenter: 

InMotion:

I didn't understand why the name "Challenger" was considered negatively by Americans, the name always gave me the image of a tough fighting machine, so thanks for the context. 

I like the suggestion of "conquer", that would work, a name of a couple of tough battleships and a famous nuclear boat. 

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

47 minutes ago, Mango said:

They should hold a naming contest. Give away a free V11 as prize for the winning entry.

How about they give away a v12 with a blown board 🤣

[wstuart]

9 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I really appreciate you explaining all that. It helped me immensely. I know I'm being pedantic but using mAh is confusing as the equations don't work. Would it just be better to use Ah in all your equations?

24 * 8 * 3.7 * 5 = 3552.

Ah I get it!  Thats what I was doing.  I was thinking of Wh as though they were Ah.  With wh you take the Ah and multiply by the voltage, so with a higher voltage pack, you would need less cells to achieve the same Wh.  

 

Wh is a more useful measure than AH with PEVs because voltages vary quite a bit even within the same family of PEVs.  Wh gives you a way to compare the total stored potential energy of a battery without having to consider differences in voltage 

[conecones]

If the reason to change the name was because of the space shuttle, then that's really disappointing. Challenger was a good fit - it successfully captures that cheesy marketing that a lot of Chinese companies use because of the language barrier. Ex: "Eagle. The Eagle has Landed."

Here's my guesses on what Inmotion's marketing team was brainstorming:
Challenger. A New Challenger has Arrived. Are you Ready for the Challenger? Challenge Yourself. 

Nothing says "made in china" better than some cringe branding but we don't take it seriously and love it all the same. Either way, the space shuttle is nothing similar to an EUC. Companies that are confident in their product don't care for such irrelevant associations. Ex. Bombardier Challenger is a successful lineup of jets. Dodge Challenger is a very popular and successful lineup of muscle cars with a long history - in fact it pre-dates the Challenger shuttle incident. Inmotion should avoid knee jerk reactions.

[techyiam]

19 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Ah I get it!  Thats what I was doing.  I was thinking of Wh as though they were Ah.  With wh you take the Ah and multiply by the voltage, so with a higher voltage pack, you would need less cells to achieve the same Wh.

I think you have changed context to the original conversation. As @yoos pointed out, @meepmeepmayer got it right in the first place in his equation, since he did indeed use the correct units [mAh].

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, conecones said:

If the reason to change the name was because of the space shuttle, then that's really disappointing. Challenger was a good fit - it successfully captures that cheesy marketing that a lot of Chinese companies use because of the language barrier. Ex: "Eagle. The Eagle has Landed."

Here's my guesses on what Inmotion's marketing team was brainstorming:
Challenger. A New Challenger has Arrived. Are you Ready for the Challenger? Challenge Yourself. 

Nothing says "made in china" better than some cringe branding but we don't take it seriously and love it all the same. Either way, the space shuttle is nothing similar to an EUC. Companies that are confident in their product don't care for such irrelevant associations. Ex. Bombardier Challenger is a successful lineup of jets. Dodge Challenger is a very popular and successful lineup of muscle cars with a long history - in fact it pre-dates the Challenger shuttle incident. Inmotion should avoid knee jerk reactions.

Or just V13. Less to typing. 🙂  Additionally, Inmotion V11 and V12 are already well established model names in their lineup.

[Paul g]

2 hours ago, onizukagto said:

I didn't understand why the name "Challenger" was considered negatively by Americans, the name always gave me the image of a tough fighting machine, so thanks for the context. 

I like the suggestion of "conquer", that would work, a name of a couple of tough battleships and a famous nuclear boat. 

Well, if you see it in the context of V12 cutouts and if V13 would end up having the same problems, it makes sense for them to stay away from the name Challanger.