Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Mango]

Inmotion, my body and wallet is ready.

[techyiam]

39 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

To me, the central box on the motor looks like a slider for a (simple, V11-like) suspension. Maybe optional, so you can have the same wheel with or without suspension.

To me as well, but as to the latter, it doesn't make sense to me. Any suspension can be defeated simply by replacing the shock with a steel rod. But that is a very inefficient way to build a non-suspension wheel. Additionally, I personally have no interest in buying a non-suspension wheel with a free-spin speed of 140+ km/h, in the first place.

[techyiam]

19 minutes ago, Mango said:

Inmotion, my body and wallet is ready.

Are you planning to upgrade your gear?

[Funky]

5 hours ago, Finn Bjerke said:

Saw the video very little info so far.

80 kmh is nuts ......
Price will be very very .......
Tis gonna be a heavy wheel ......
I have V 11 nd sherman I dont need this overpriced superheavy wheel .......

You guessed, The most heavy wheel and the most expensive wheel. So "fun"  (I bet it will weight 40-45kg and will cost 4000-4500$ and in some way it still will suck. <<< Mark my words.) 

I wonder what year companies will go back, to releasing new light wheels.. You know - the real "last mileage" wheels.

I can bet my left nut/kidney. They would make much more profits releasing something under 20-25kg weight, ~60kph speed. (For the people who don't come on forums, etc.. Simply use euc as regular bike for small rides to job/store, etc.. People who don't need heavy monsters and big range, people who don't ride with cars.)

 

Yeah.. Yeah.. I know - we got the 2018-2019 year wheels. And we can't really get anything "new". Simply refreshing stock with new models would help a lot.. More options to choose from.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Funky

[alcatraz]

The video mentions 8awg motor cables and how they can handle 160A continuous phase currents.

An MSP can output 250A of phase current and it doesn't even have a hollow motor. Do I want to know what those cables are rated for?

[alcatraz]

I guess the V13 is (at least) a 126V wheel then. It said 124v on the display.

I'm curious how the motor compares to existing motors.

1. thicker windings

2. more windings

3. wider

Do more windings usually decrease top speed? This reached 140km/h.

[Robse]

1 minute ago, Funky said:

You guessed, The most heavy wheel and the most expensive wheel. So "fun"  (I bet it will weight 40-45kg and will cost 4000-4500$ and in some way still suck. <<< Mark my words.) 

I wonder what year companies will go back, to releasing new light wheels.. You know - the real "last mileage" wheels.

I can bet my left nut/kidney. They would make much more profits releasing something under 20-25kg weight, ~60kph speed. (For the people who don't come on forums, etc.. Simply use euc as regular bike for small rides to job/store, etc.. People who don't need heavy monsters and big range, people who don't ride with cars.)

 

Yeah.. Yeah.. I know - we got the 2018-2019 year wheels. And we can't really get anything "new". Simply refreshing stock with new models would help a lot.. More options to choose from.

I would just like to have a Kingsong 16X (design),  with 18" wheel, no suspension,  +2000 watts battery (replace the speakers with battery storage), spiked pedals from store, seat included,  waterproof, and a 70 kmph top speed = a good safety margin from 50 kmph.  a $4000 wheel with a topspeed of +80 kmph is simply over the edge - if i have need for this kind of speed i ride my mc   

[wstuart]

3 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

126V
Hopefully they choose the same charging connector as S22, so the chargers can be generic...

300 N*m
If that's real, it means 241 lb pull-force for the 22" tire. More than any EUC yet. 

Now... can they keep it under 100lb weight?

  

I doubt it will be under 100lbs.  

The 90lb begode EX has a motor with similar dimensions to that one and it has suspension. But that 90lb only has a 2700wh 100v battery

GoGeorgeGo speculated that to achieve the 10kw peak output they are claiming, they would need 4400 wh samsung 50E battery.  If this wheel had that battery and suspension and the 45lb motor from the video it would weigh 135 lbs.  (No way!)  They might be able to get away with 2500 wh or so if they used Molicel, but then the range would be super diminished.

My prediction/hope is that they will have have 2 very different wheels using a similar design (like the EX and EXn)

Wheel #1 will be a suspension wheel with a lighter 2500wh molicel pack.  This wheel will be around 80- 90lbs and will be designed to compete with the master and s22.  This will be the wheel that will be capable of the insane 70mph they are claiming in the video, but will only go 30-40 miles.  I think this wheel will come out first.

Wheel #2 will be a heavier non suspension wheel with around 4000 wh Samsung pack.  This wheel will have insane range and will be designed to compete with the Monster and Sherman. I bet this wheel's speed will be limited to something like 45mph.  I wouldn't be surprised if this wheel also had a lighter "weaker" motor.  You would basically be trading out the weight of the motor and suspension to get more range with a bigger, heavier battery.  I think the battery will still be 126v though.  With a 4000wh 126v battery the headroom on the system would be insane.... I bet it would be able to go 45mph all the way down to 20% battery....

This is really just my hope.  I have no idea if this will actually happen.   It would be cool though.   

Edited July 15, 2022 by wstuart

[Robse]

6 hours ago, Rolzi said:

 

This "v13" goes from 92% to 86% battery in 27 seconds while performing
free spin = no rider, uphill, drag, wind, road resistance, sloppy wheel etc.
Interesting;  It's 0,14% pr. second .  Not much?  Riding just 5 minutes at top speed
with this need for power will theoretically bring the level down to 56% ...
in 5 minutes.. hmnnn..

[Funky]

41 minutes ago, Robse said:

I would just like to have a Kingsong 16X (design),  with 18" wheel, no suspension,  +2000 watts battery (replace the speakers with battery storage), spiked pedals from store, seat included,  waterproof, and a 70 kmph top speed = a good safety margin from 50 kmph.  a $4000 wheel with a topspeed of +80 kmph is simply over the edge - if i have need for this kind of speed i ride my mc   

Yeah i also like 16x very much. I was choosing between 16x and 18xl. I went with 18xl just because of handle. (Carrying 16x felt awkward.)

Also for 4000$ i could get pretty good car.  All i need is something light, which can do regular bike speeds.  60kph stop speed would be plenty, if you wanna ride ~50kph.

I personally think anything over 50kph is to fast on one wheel device.. If you gave someone a wheel which can do 200kph, i bet some would try riding it.Doh before riding i hope they have set their will in order.  

I personally hate all the new wheels, which are more than 30kg heavy. (Okey, i don't hate them.. - I just don't have any needs of them. They are to heavy and range, speed, performance - are pointless to me.) < And every average joe will say the same.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Funky

[That Guy]

Sounds to me this wheel will be the fastest, the torquiest, the heaviest and the most expensive wheel ever. I think it's weight will be just under 50kg, the battery pack will be just over 3,000wh and the price just below US$5,000...

The biggest challenge is of course, the battery, as usual... Big motors are not the news, but energy density is the real challenge. I predict V13 will be struggling from the same issue as every other high performance wheel - huge range drop at high performance. However, they might be able to achieve greater battery utilisation with thicker wires and stronger internal componentry allowing higher current compensating voltage drop without overheating. (Which will be pushing the weight even higher.) I would be surprised if the range of V13 will be any better than S22 or Master.

Overall, it's definitely a "showcase" wheel. If InMotion manage to take it to production it will definitely prove they "can". :-)

And I personally do like the name and even thought about it in that silly exercise of "naming the v13". Challenger may have some connotations for some... (My personal suggestion was Voyager, but I did hope for the wheel to have a good range...)

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, alcatraz said:

Do I want to know what those cables are rated for?

probably not... they're likely 14AWG stranded. The continuous current ratings can be found here, know that the 200+A currents reported by BG are pulses, not continuous. https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wire-gauges-d_419.html

But there are reasons why EUC manufacturers took to adding fiberglas sleeves to the motor phase wires.

 

 

[techyiam]

I am unsure as to how well the V13 is going to be received. When the Abrams first came out, Afeez Kay of E-rides predicted that the Abrams will be a niche wheel because it is heavy, cumbersome to handle, and needs high effort to operate. It had some early batch issues, and I don't hear much about it anymore. Jack ex-Kingsong even mentioned that he doesn't know why Leaper Kim would bother to build it. Moving on to the next heavy crusier flagship, we see the Begode EX20S. For this wheel, some dealers didn't even want to carry them right off the bat.They didn't feel this wheel will sell well. Even if we go back further to the Monster Pro, it again sold like a niche wheel.

I don't see how the euc rider usage cases have changed that much over the last little while to think that the euc rider masses will accept something that is so big and heavy, even if it has the most powerful motor, and the highest top speed. Will history repeat itself once again for the V13, like the last time when the euc community did gradually accept the then, big and heavy wheel, the Veteran Sherman?

Edited July 16, 2022 by techyiam

[wstuart]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I am unsure as to how well the V13 is going to be received. When the Abrams first came out, Afeez Kay of E-rides predicted that the Abrams will be a niche wheel because it is heavy, cumbersome to handle, and needs high effort to operate. It had some early batch issues, and I don't hear much about it anymore. Jack ex-Kingsong even mentioned that he doesn't know why Leaper Kim would bother to build it. Moving on to the next heavy crusier flagship, we see the Begode EX20S. For this wheel, some dealers didn't even want to carry them right off the bat, because they didn't feel this wheel will sell well. Even if we go back further to the Monster Pro, it is again sold like a niche wheel.

I don't see how the euc rider usage cases have changed so much over the last little while to think that the euc rider masses will accept something that is so big and heavy, even if it has the most powerful motor, and the highest top speed. Will history repeat itself once again for the V13, like the last time when the euc community did gradually accept the then, big and heavy wheel, the Veteran Sherman?

That's why I think there will be 2 wheels.  I think there are 2 niches here:

One niche are the Marty Backes who never go over 35 mph, but like to go on 100 mile group rides.  I think this is actually a rather large niche.  The Monster pro, Sherman max, and Begode commander all serve this niche.  I think Inmotion will make a non suspension 105lb wheel for this niche.  It will essentially be an abrahms with the bigger battery and higher voltage that it should have come with. 

The next niche are the guys who have the skill and bravery to ride at sustained 50mph + speeds and ride hard in offroad situations.  Really the Master is the only wheel to give these guys what they need.  Maybe a HS Exn with molicel packs or RS19 with molicel will also keep these guys happy.  I think inmotion will make a suspension V13 with molicel packs and that insane motor that will keep these guys happy. 

 

For the remaining 95% of EUC riders, a KS 18xl is really all we need.  Maybe a v11 if we want a smooth ride.  

[Freeforester]

It’s already demonstrating that it’s going to be a bit of a ‘Challenger’ - a mite heavy for off-roading, so limiting the market to speed demons (why else would anyone want to have such a heavy wheel unless it’s their ‘need for speed’ (a tether might not be a good idea, yet neither would such a heavy unit careering into other road users be too swell for those non-users)?     Not an easily handled, nimble wheel for lighter riders, then, and of limited worth as a practical commuter wheel,  but still possible, assuming a great, as opposed to adequate and pretty empty road surface…🤔    
 

I tend to imagine also, that Li-ion batteries are already heading up both the price and demand scale, and already foreseeable inflationary pressures (not talking about the tyre) and the generally anticipated stage of the economic cycle we’re shortly about to enter is going to limit somewhat the affordability, let alone the basic ride-ability: you’ll have to be pretty certain of decent riding surface for a wheel capable of sticking to it at that weight, and plenty of stopping power will also be a requirement, never mind the state of one’s bank balance and sympathies of one’s significant others and/or next of kin near family members.

 

I may well be wrong, and don’t wish to dampen the hype, but for ’the many’ and the less superstitious, it could indeed prove to be something of a ‘challenger’ and may - just -  turn out to be ‘a wheel too far’ -  just sayin’…🤔

[alcatraz]

7 hours ago, Tawpie said:

But there are reasons why EUC manufacturers took to adding fiberglas sleeves to the motor phase wires.

Those are a nice upgrade. They don't go the whole way though 

I actually added some fiberglass tube to my Tesla motor wires to keep them separate. Then I see them scrunch up and go in the motor unprotected. Hmm... 

[mhpr262]

Its great to see how EUC technology is developing and progressing, but I'd really welcome some development for the lower to upper mid-range wheels as well.

I'd absolutely love a  new V10F with a 3'' tire, an integrated V11-like kickstand, cast honeycomb spike pedals from the factory with adjustable cant, better and adjustable headlight, a shell with flat sides that can easily accept power pads, beefed up control board and BMS circuits for charging at 6-8A and a better trolley handle.

Or an 18'' wheel without suspension with the V11 motor, rim, battery pack, control board, kickstand and headlight, the V12 display and charging beefed up to 8A. That would be a BRUTAL competitor for the Kingsong 18XL.

Edited July 16, 2022 by mhpr262

[meepmeepmayer]

9 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Do more windings usually decrease top speed? This reached 140km/h.

Yes (in comparison to the same motor with fewer windings). Essentially, anything that allows the motor to be "grabbed" easily (like lots of windings, wider/stronger magnets) and thus gives you torque will also produce a stronger counterforce (back-EMF) to the rotation, decreasing the top speed. So you have to choose a tradeoff when constructing the motor.

The trick seems to be to have the voltage high enough so even a HT motor gives you plenty of speed. The Master is proof of that. The V13 can do the same.

-

What is the free-spin speed of the Sherman? If we compare it to these 140kph of the V13 and the Sherman's usable top speed, we know how fast this V13 usable top speed should be.

[zege]

28 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Yes (in comparison to the same motor with fewer windings). Essentially, anything that allows the motor to be "grabbed" easily (like lots of windings, wider/stronger magnets) and thus gives you torque will also produce a stronger counterforce (back-EMF) to the rotation, decreasing the top speed. So you have to choose a tradeoff when constructing the motor.

The trick seems to be to have the voltage high enough so even a HT motor gives you plenty of speed. The Master is proof of that. The V13 can do the same.

-

What is the free-spin speed of the Sherman? If we compare it to these 140kph of the V13 and the Sherman's usable top speed, we know how fast this V13 usable top speed should be.

My OG Sherman has a free-spin of 106 kph but some of the newer ones are around 98 kph i think. It is a big step up. I think the suspension will be key here. I have never been able to push the Sherman to its limits due to the lack thereof. So if the Sherman can do 70 kph sustained, this one should in theory be able to pass 100 kph all else equal. In practice I think the difference will be smaller due to windresistance etc but still a substantial bump up in speed.

[meepmeepmayer]

9 hours ago, That Guy said:

I predict V13 will be struggling from the same issue as every other high performance wheel - huge range drop at high performance.

Wind resistance will always be there. You'll always get a huge range drop when going fast vs. going slow. Nothing the manufacturers can do against that. Whatever Wh/km (at speed x) we get from the current wheels we can expect from this V13. Or did you mean something else?

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

Will history repeat itself once again for the V13, like the last time when the euc community did gradually accept the then, big and heavy wheel, the Veteran Sherman?

The Sherman offered unprecedented performance, range, and speed at safety for that long range (due to the low voltage drop from the big battery) in a maximally compact, stable, tanky, popular "18" (aka 20) inch tire size package. Plus that new and cool, robust looking roll bar.

That's why I don't think it's directly comparable to these huge monster wheels like the V13 (presumably), Monster Pro, Abrams, and maybe the crazy heavy EX20S. They do seem more niche. They are just "big" to me, somehow the Sherman is not.

I never really understood these wheels (hated the Monster whenever I tried it, nimble like a freight train). But apparently many people seem to like them (and buy, always surprised at the number of Monster Pros in random videos). Maybe just because they are the biggest and baddest, but I guess enough just seem to like the drive characteristics. Big comfy and stable tire plus seated riding, who needs torque (without having to lean a million pounds) or effortless nimbleness?

So to me, Inmotion are just completing their wheel portfolio. The market seems to be there in general.

The dangers I see are that people will be a bit wary of IM quality after their latest fiascos, which has always been part of their selling point. More important for such a fast and (presumedly) expensive wheel. Also, can they beat Begode on performance? I almost expect BG to clone-improve this (after more info is available) and release their wheel (with more performance) and possibly it's successor before the V13 releases.

Well, I'm happy they are trying. I'm not going to buy this (zero interest in a 22 incher), but I hope it will be good and will find its fans. And maybe there is something new about it we don't know yet.

Edited July 16, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[meepmeepmayer]

12 minutes ago, zege said:

My OG Sherman has a free-spin of 106 kph but some of the newer ones are around 98 kph i think. It is a big step up. I think the suspension will be key here. I have never been able to push the Sherman to its limits due to the lack thereof. So if the Sherman can do 70 kph sustained, this one should in theory be able to pass 100 kph all else equal. In practice I think the difference will be smaller due to windresistance etc but still a substantial bump up in speed.

So if 70% of free-spin speed is a good rule-of-thumb for the sustainable top speed... 70% of 140 is 100

You're right, the limit might no longer be how crazy the rider is (well that is never going to go away), but plain wind resistance and physics. That's a step forward for EUCs.

[Forwardnbak]

well i’ll have a go, seems fun 

[techyiam]

I think perhaps we have reached the point where the battery pack modules should be designed so that battery packs can be swapped, or more packs can be added. More and more riders are now demanding more range, and/or more torque. Either of these requires more p's. Depending on a particular ride, a rider can then choose the right mix of packs, giving him the option to best make the compromise between range/torque, and weight/maneuverability. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by techyiam

[UniVehje]

28 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I think perhaps we have reached the point where the battery pack modules should be designed so that battery packs can be swapped, or more packs can be added. More and more riders are now demanding more range, and/or more torque. Either of these requires more p's. Depending on a particular ride, a rider can then choose the right mix of packs, giving him the option to best make the compromise between range/torque, and weight/maneuverability. 

Definitely this is the way to go. It is impossible to make a wheel variant suitable for every need. A modular design would be much better. Everybody can choose battery configuration for their weight/price/range needs. Tire, suspension and pad needs are also very personal and could be chosen by the user. 

---

I get the feeling there are quite a few people reacting with a sense that they are going too far with the motor. I do agree. For me these wheels are still something that are comparable to e-bikes and ridden on bike paths. 50 km/h is already enough for me and everything beyond that is wasted. However, I do think there are much more good things in the motor video than just more speed. 

I guess this wheel is there to make Inmotion known for performance. I do think they know the market is limited. It will be expensive but will still sell well because there are so many people who just want biggest and best no matter if they need them or not. It's for American market. They are used to buying big trucks for daily usage also. 

My dream wheel has not been made yet but all the components have already been made. Nobody just hasn't put them all in one wheel. 

Battery: 2400-3200 Wh, done by Begode and Veteran

Tire: 18x3" done in most wheels

Suspension: done in many versions, they're all good enough

Speed: 50 km/h, done in many wheels

Reliability: done in some wheels

Comfort: done in many narrow wheels

Good light: V11 has nailed it 

Big pedals: most are fine already

Seated riding: Many wheels offer good options

Just upgrade the V11 with bigger battery, better reliability and maybe up the voltage for those who want it. Suspension could be upgraded also. That's it. That's the wheel I want. V13 will be awesome for some specific use cases but will also have too many compromises for most use cases. It will compete well with Monster, Abrams and EX20S. For V11, 18XL, MSP, Sherman and S22 riders it will feel too heavy and be too expensive. To upgrade from these to V13 you will lose many benefits from the smaller wheels just to have the potential speed of +70 km/h. Inmotion would be wise to offer a lighter version limited to 60 km/h for those who don't need more and want a lighter wheel. This version could have an 18x3" tire also. The top version would function as a halo product and the lighter version would be the one most people choose. 

The 22" (or maybe it's a 20x3"?) tire might be ok for me if they get it feeling somewhat reactive. But this might be a mistake. Bigger is not better and I think we already have reached the sweet spot with 18x3". But I will have open mind to this. 

I have a feeling @Unventor is right and this wheel will offer some wild new ideas. It will not be just bigger numbers. Maybe we see some new solutions that we've not seen before. 

[Unventor]

12 hours ago, alcatraz said:

I guess the V13 is (at least) a 126V wheel then. It said 124v on the display.

I'm curious how the motor compares to existing motors.

1. thicker windings

2. more windings

3. wider

Do more windings usually decrease top speed? This reached 140km/h.

I can give you what it compare to. This motor they use is the biggest serial production motor in the spring. No other EUC maker have something similar. As I understand this is also a wider motor to allow for stronger magnets in the motor. 

As I said before it is build for speed and be able to do this in a "safe way" aka headroom and other component to match it.

I will share a little hint here that at those speeds suspension will not be safe this is from the testing Inmotion did. it will be prone to vibration and I suspect it could add into wobbles. Also to keep wight down there are things that will not be added from factory, but that leaves room for 3rd party mods. It also comes into play wil vibration and safety. You will see this in the up coming reveals.

So what do they do as they know the most would need suspension at "middle" speeds. Knowing at top speed it is not helping the rider. I know what the planed to do in the spring but how they execute this I do not know. I can say my first thought, ehh okey..I wounder...can you really do that ? But Inmotions have been first with other things before so stay tuned for their next reveal video is all I guess we can do.

I now I guess we have either a new speed wheel for some or a very over engineered wheel for most. It depends how much you are willing to pay in features and money.

I seen some talk modular design. I can say that looking at other previous Inmotion wheels, the design language is to keep wheel at slim and slick as possible. They are stepping away from that. So lets say they wanted to make a V10f x2 they couldn't because they couldn't increase either battery or control board or motor in a simple way. And that meant they need to redesign everything every time.

So I were in a meeting for like a few hours where we discussed feedback. This was back at Easter, so I don't know all directions taken or changes since then.

We will see if a wheel that will feel like an upgrade to Sherman can sell and if they can make profit from that.

But I am on the same page with the other member that wrote they likely make more profit from a V12/V11/V10F mixed size/cost wheel. I also thing they know this at Inmotion. I think that is why they made this survey:

Should We Develop a Light-weight EUC in 2023? https://forms.gle/a7b29gW9FCDXfZGa8