Inmotion V13 Speculation

[mhpr262]

One guy in my country's Telegram EUC group already has the Master. He says torque and speed are really good but build quality is utter garbage. If Inmotion manages to build a quality wheel they should be able to compete with the Master without too much difficulty.

[That Guy]

The only way to compete with Master's performance if InMotion pick the higher voltage, which is not impossible. I may be wrong, but I think I heard somewhere that the new V12 MOSFETs are rated 150V...

Edited May 24, 2022 by That Guy

[AtlasP]

13 minutes ago, That Guy said:

The only way to compete with Master's performance if InMotion pick the higher voltage

I (respectfully) disagree. There are several methods by which one could make a wheel competitive with the Master at the same or an even slightly lower voltage--mostly by focusing on the quality of other electrical components, which in most EUCs are still utter garbage compared to what our existing motors & voltages would be capable of if it weren't for shortcomings of the paired electronics.

Edited May 24, 2022 by AtlasP

[That Guy]

2 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

by focusing on the quality of other electrical components

Maybe. But bear with me... In order to reach greater power/torque from idle state a motor would require to pull more current. The lower the voltage the higher current is required to achieve the same power output. Therefore, electronic componentry needs to be "more robust"/"thick" to hold on without overheating. It would, in turn, require better cooling and in general, more space in the electronic module and in the motor. Lower voltage motors must be heavier because of the amount of copper. 
(I can be totally wrong - I am not into electronics. :-))

That would be very exciting if InMotion match Master's torque - I need torque in the city I live! :-)

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, That Guy said:

That would be very exciting if InMotion match Master's torque - I need torque in the city I live! :-)

I know they haven't gone head-to-head yet, but V12HT and its 16" wheel might be right there with thrust. I was sort of under the impression that V13 was going to be a speed wheel—which when all other things are equal means less thrust. But who knows, now that BG has shown that a torque motor at 134V can go fast as the wind... a speed motor at higher voltage could be a very scary thing indeed. It's all about tradeoffs.

[Tobey]

12 hours ago, Unventor said:

Now since this is a V3 thread I can confirm it will NOT have a dual wheel configuration. 

Inmotion had a wheel like that and it was may fine for its time. But now we have wheels that have the battery and motor power to keep balance. 

Anyone trying a hoover board know what the problem is with a 2 wheel parallel config once one wheel hit an obstical while the other wheel doesn't. 

As for how the V13 will handle I don't know just yet. Except speed is very important in the way it is designed. And that comes at a cost. 

Personally I think this is wrong way to go but apparently Inmotion must be under the impression that speeds will sell otherwise I have a hard time see why to build a very fast wheel. 

It does mean I doubt I will be buying the V13. The "cost" are in so many ways that it is not one I expect will feel like an upgrade to me that is worth the investment needed. 

@Unventor thanks for the follow-up! I did mention two wheels would have to pivot parallel in mutual sync and have independent suspension for the reasons you mention.

I don't quite understand what the point is in even higher speeds. I am learning on an unlocked V8S and it already feels rather unsafe at higher speeds despite my full gear. I think safety should be the primary concern of utmost importance over speed. Including quality suspension as an absolute must-have - otherwise these wheels might not go unnoticed by regulations for much longer if enough people manage to shred themselves at high speeds in public. This is also why I'm exploring the options for a completely balanced solution in all directions. Basically, something impossible to fall off at high speed. I think that is the future of safe transportation - not hoping things will work out.

[Finn Bjerke]

8f is outdated, newer wheels like v12, V11 and Sherman can handle high speed in a, safe and fun way. 

 

This thread is about V 13..?

[onkeldanuel]

14 hours ago, mhpr262 said:

One guy in my country's Telegram EUC group already has the Master. He says torque and speed are really good but build quality is utter garbage. If Inmotion manages to build a quality wheel they should be able to compete with the Master without too much difficulty.

Can you give me Name or Link of the German TG? 

[yoos]

5 hours ago, Tobey said:

I am learning on an unlocked V8S and it already feels rather unsafe at higher speeds despite my full gear.

As you learn you will gradually feel more safe and in control at higher speeds, just as you grow more comfortable with higher speeds learning to ride a bicycle, car, skis, horse etc. I guess most of us have to remind ourselves about the dangers of high speed by watching crash videos. Apart from the training factor, the V8S has a 16"x2.125" tire and low weight. Larger and heavier EUC feel and are safer at higher speeds.

 

5 hours ago, Tobey said:

Basically, something impossible to fall off at high speed.

Impossible -- any vehicle will crash spectacularly when hitting a bump at high enough speed.

Twin wheels on an EUC are more of a handicap to a skilled rider and complicated mechanics with sophisticated geometry, suspension and differential (which is needed if you have a vehicle with more than one powered wheel - either a literal gear train or a setup with two hub motors) would make the vehicle heavy, large, fragile, expensive. Apparently the best way to employ multiple wheels is to build a bicycle/motorcycle/scooter kind of vehicle. 

Anyway, I am convinced that the V13 will be a proper EUC with a single wheel and point of contact  

Edited May 24, 2022 by yoos

[Killface]

I would love to see a v13 this year, if Madpack is correct on that. Master seems very compelling but always great to have options. 

 

[Unventor]

Like I said before I can't give any numbers on how the V13 will be like, but I understand from a meeting I had what they are going to build. 

Key point is very fast. 

And to achieve that some things are not important and other drawback will show too. 

I am very sure it will be "Safe" fast wheel. But now my big question comes how fast can one ride an EUC safely? Keep in mind anyone can have a puncture more or less instant, which isn't easy to handle and at high speed almost impossible. 

Also what do you think you need for reaction radius around you keem in mind every 3.6kmh =1m pr seconds. 

So now we talk safety distance at high speed? 

What can possibly go wrong? Like a Sherman on Hawaii highway? 

Now add the high price tag this must have due to biggest motor yet and big battery... How fast do you think the police will go hmm that is not legal when you are only allowed to ride at 20kmh... So we will take that wheel with us. Plus the fine for speeding too. 

Nope I am not poor but not that rich either. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Unventor
Thanks yoos for correcting me. 😊

[yoos]

1 minute ago, Unventor said:

keem in mind every 1km = 3.6m pr seconds. 

Actually it's the other way round: 1m/s = 3.6km/h. 

Still I agree with the general sentiment  While companies should push the limits for the glory of the sport, even a perfectly reliable wheel with good suspension doesn't guarantee safety. Car accidents do happen after all and mostly at relatively low speeds if we are talking urban areas. I wish EUCs would be firmly legalized in a friendly manner before they become truly monstrous in the public eye.

[mhpr262]

2 hours ago, onkeldanuel said:

Can you give me Name or Link of the German TG? 

The name is "E-Mobilität - Wir stehen drauf!". It is an open group, anybody is welcome.

[techyiam]

 

@Unventor

At the outset, thank you for sharing your thoughts, and dropping tidbits on the V13.

 

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Keep in mind anyone can have a puncture more or less instant, which isn't easy to handle and at high speed almost impossible. 

Slime?

 

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

What can possibly go wrong? Like a Sherman on Hawaii highway?

Do we know enough about this particular incident to use it as an example. You may have made many assumptions that may not hold true. However, I do agree in general, riding in traffic going at freeway speeds probably cannot be mitigated to a safe enough level for 99% of the riders on current crop of euc's. Having said that, I don't think this will become a problem because police themselves, or drivers reporting them will put a stop to it. 

 

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Now add the high price tag this must have due to biggest motor yet and big battery... How fast do you think the police will go hmm that is not legal when you are only allowed to ride at 20kmh... So we will take that wheel with us. Plus the fine for speeding too.

Thanks for sharing some more info. With the biggest motor yet and big battery sounds like a EX20S competitor, or beyond. If features and quality justify it, there still may be demand. I wasn't looking for this class of wheels for my next purchase, but I am still intrigued. Right now I don't doubt there will be a lot of naysayers, but we have to wait and see whether it can do a Sherman, or end up being an expensive flop.

Edited May 24, 2022 by techyiam

[That Guy]

I totally understand the sentiment of some of us about the high speed. I was one of those people who once thought 50kph was everything I would ever need. For a rare exception (which exists in every risky sport), with experience comes understanding of personal capability/skills in specific circumstances. That understanding will guide a more experienced riders to choose the speed adequately. I like that Master has both speed and torque and I will only be excited about V13 if its torque is similar to Master’s. I have doubts that will be the case as @Unventor suggested V13 would be a “Safe fast wheel” - does it mean InMotion may be a little bit too conservative (to beat Master)?

[Paul A]

The Sherman on Highway fatality.

_________

https://ktla.com/news/man-on-electric-unicycle-dies-after-being-struck-by-car-in-hawaii/

December 23, 2021

Man on electric unicycle dies after being struck by car in Hawaii

 

HONOLULU (KHON2) – A 40-year-old New York man is dead after a crash in Hawaii Tuesday night.

 

Police say the man was traveling on Interstate H-1 near the Daniel K. Inouye International Airport in Honolulu when he lost control and was thrown from the electric unicycle he was riding.

 

He then was hit by a Honda CRV driven by a 56-year-old woman.

 

The man was taken to the hospital in critical condition where he later died, police say.

 

The woman spoke with Nexstar’s KHON, saying she was about to take the airport exit when the car in front of her tried to avoid something on the road.

 

"The car in front of me swerved to the left. And then just right in front of me, I saw something. It looked…I saw that it was red. And honestly, I thought it was a box or something,” she recounts. “I took my foot off the gas and was going to brake, but I hit it before I could even brake.”

 

She then pulled over to check the damage on her car and to see what she hit.

 

“As I came up on it, I realized it was a body, it was a person. And that was the first time that I realized what had happened,” she explains. “After the police officers got there, they said that I wasn’t the first person to hit it. I was probably the second or third, but that I was the only one that stopped.”

 

She tells KHON she is still in shock trying to process what happened.

 

Honolulu Police say speed, alcohol and drugs do not appear to be factors in the collision.

 

On Thursday, the medical examiner identified the unicyclist as Joel Dort, 40, from New York. Dort’s cause of death was multiple injuries due to impact from the SUV and was ruled an accident.

 

This is the electric unicycle (EUC) the man was riding along the shoulder of the H1 Tuesday night.

[Paul A]

If Inmotion, or any manufacturer, builds a very fast EUC, capable of 60mph/100kph.......

Where is a person going to ride it, if not a highway or freeway?

 

Seems pointless to build such an EUC.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Paul A

[Unventor]

25 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Where is a person going to ride it, if not a highway or freeway?

Seems pointless to build such an EUC.

Now that is why I asked how fast do a rider feel safe to ride? 

It might feel safe and a rider might feel capable and in control. But risk is very different compared to a MC which has a long history and compared to a car too. 

Different King of transport has their purpose and range and speed where they are useful. The sooner riders accept that the better. 

If a person were to pedal a bicycle to 60kmh then he or she know what force it takes to do so. On a unlicensed motor driven transport people tend to forget that. 

I had a faulty control board, why I can't say, but after 500m on first ride it died on me at 30kmh and despite full lvl 2 3D0 mc suit I did feel the impact. 

This why I think we as riders still need to understand a self balancing 1 wheel based transport has a risk no matter what brand we use. Had I been going 60kmh then my fall would be 4x more force to cope for my body. 

My only words to that is good luck with that. 

Now going at 70-90kmh question here is even if you escape a major crash what risk is there to get hit by a car that didn't anticipate a crash. So even if it feels safe that is not the same as it is as safe as the rider think. 

So if we say off road riding. How fast is feasible to go in such situation? 

On a race track well maybe but how many have that option? 

So my argument here is faster wheels is a very blind road in one direction as I see it. 

Riding EUCs can be magical. But you will feel no matter what we think and have opinions about, gravity will veto this any time always. And those that have not "tested" this yet will feel this the hard way. 

So I fully agree with @Paul A I quote here, what is the point of faster wheels but being pointless.

 

[mrelwood]

On 5/25/2022 at 4:15 AM, Unventor said:

Had I been going 60kmh then my fall would be 4x more force to cope for my body.

While I fully agree with everything else you typed, I just wish to correct this part.

 When falling down, the speed of travel has no effect on how hard the gravity pulls you, or how hard you hit the ground. The energy of impact is the same. It would’ve been 4x higher only if you were riding directly into a wall in both cases.

 That of course doesn’t mean that a crash at 30km/h and 60km/h is the same. The higher speed makes you slide for much longer, and the obstacles you can hit make it more severe. Also the friction from the slide burns through the skin without effort, something that even regular motorcycle gear doesn’t always mitigate.

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 When falling down, the speed of travel has no effect on how hard the gravity pulls you, or how hard you hit the ground.

Although this is true, should the rider simply falls off sliding. However, unlike a motorcyclist, for example, an euc rider, often get his feet to land first, or worst, the pedals get caught on something on the ground while the upper body still traveling at speeds. Depending on the relative speed of feet and upper body, there can be a large moment slamming some parts of the upper body into the ground. This is one reason why some riders can get really hurt even going at relatively low speeds.

I sometimes wonder whether it is beneficial to wear a protective backpack (of course with full protective gear), and squat down then fall backwards instead, if a control fall is possible. In this way, the rider can then fall off sliding. Our long limbs can complicate our falls.

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

should the rider simply falls off sliding

I understand what you are saying. If the motorcycle rider falls with the bike he may go down slower due to friction from tyres/bike moving/protection from bike hitting road first. But if the rider high sides and is thrown off he experiences the same force of gravity at any speed. Earths gravity is pretty constant*

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Depending on the relative speed of feet and upper body, there can be a large moment slamming some parts of the upper body into the ground.

This is kinda untrue. The force is the same going down. Only the forward motion is quicker which is potentially more dangerous due to hitting something. 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

This is one reason why some riders can get really hurt even going at relatively low speeds.

This is the only reason why you can get hurt at zero or incredibly slow speeds going forward. The force of gravity is the same. We can get some comfort in knowing that if we fall off evolution has made us able to take it without dying (mostly). 

 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

sometimes wonder whether it is beneficial to wear a protective backpack (of course with full protective gear), and squat down then fall backwards instead, if a control fall is possible. In this way, the rider can then fall off sliding. Our long limbs can complicate our falls.

It is much better to try and save a fall than bail. There are some motorcycle riders (not many) that think its better to bail and slide than try and mitigate a crash by avoiding it. This is absolutely ludicrous. But I understand your thinking that keeping as much as your body as low to the ground as possible could reduce the velocity slightly (remember gravity is 9.81 metres per second per second) and help you control the slide(good luck with that). Much better to ride defensively and with escape plans involving staying on the wheel and if you f*$k up at least you tried and then slide as a result not because you intended too.

[Unventor]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

While I fully agree with everything else you typed, I just wish to correct this part.

 When falling down, the speed of travel has no effect on how hard the gravity pulls you, or how hard you hit the ground. The energy of impact is the same. It would’ve been 4x higher only if you were riding directly into a wall in both cases.

 That of course doesn’t mean that a crash at 30km/h and 60km/h is the same. The higher speed makes you slide for much longer, and the obstacles you can hit make it more severe. Also the friction from the slide burns through the skin without effort, something that even regular motorcycle gear doesn’t always mitigate.

So this is where we agree to disagree. Once an EUC stops balancing ot either rotates forward because it doesn't get power to balance or the rider might mitigate this but loose balance anyway. Once you hit the ground you will have that forward momentum but also a rotation force. One can get lucky that most energy will disappear as a sliding crash but there is no standard way for a crash to happen. 

So buttom line riding these days I have limited to 40-45kmh on all wheels. And the V13 that I anticipated will be a very fast wheel from what info I have direct and not public yet, does not add to the must but this for me. It is more the opposite actually. 

[The Brahan Seer]

3 minutes ago, Unventor said:

but also a rotation force

When a wheel stops balancing its gravity that pulls you down not an additional rotational force. The wheel has literally turned off or stopped producing momentum.

If what you are saying is true then you need to explain what the force is, where it comes from and how it acts on the body. 

None of these things are opinions we are talking about they are facts that have been proved by people a lot smarter than me like newton. Whether you believe the facts or not is up to you. But it doesn't change them.

[Unventor]

So still we agree to disagree. That said my very clear opinion is riding fast adds risks. And the level of risk I am prepared to take is not above 50kmh on any EUC. Also the further risk riding in areas on highway speeds is so far away in added risk that it will never happen. I have been riding on a 80kmh road but it had the space for bicycles so that was fine to ride 50kmh. But these days I don't want to ride that fast. So this is why a very fast wheel becomes pointless to me very fast. I can handle a 30kg wheel lifting up a few stairs, but 4th floor, I rather not with bad knees and bad back. To lift it into a car or on a table becomes so much harder at 35-40kg. And not having a trolley means no easy supermarket shopping either. 

That said the question is if dare devil's will favour a old-school Gotway design with no limitation build in or they will option for a safe design to handle high speed as the V13 from Inmotion. I think most would choose the spinoff Gotway brands of this target group of customers. 

[yoos]

24 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Depending on the relative speed of feet and upper body, there can be a large moment slamming some parts of the upper body into the ground.

This is kinda untrue. The force is the same going down. Only the forward motion is quicker which is potentially more dangerous due to hitting something. 

In a world with no friction (i.e. falling on ice) @The Brahan Seer would be correct, as a horizontally moving ground would not alter the forces acting on the rider. However, on asphalt friction is strong and @techyiam is correct. While the (vertical) force of gravity is the same, horizontal friction can drag one's feet back, imparting rotational kinetic energy to the body (since legs go back, upper body goes forward). This rotational movement (angular momentum, technically speaking) ultimately means that the upper body will slam into the ground with extra speed (as compared to what gravity alone would produce). 

In addition to this mechanical effect which translates horizontal momentum from friction into vertical momentum of the upper body, the feet-dragging effect prevents a run-out and means you won't absorb much impact with your legs. In other words, it's very hard to fall efficiently at speed when your feet stick to the ground. This is exacerbated by EUC riders favoring footwear with good grip while motorcycle boots often have flat plasticky soles. I assume that's intentionally made to improve sliding.