Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Finn Bjerke]

Inmotion promissed a statement about V13 ------- they forgot about it ....... They could communicate better/ more..... 

Maybe V13 raptor is the deluxe model with AI and shit?

[Unventor]

No Inmotion has not forgotten about it. 

But sometimes things don't go as planned. 

I had a very interesting meeting just around Easter with Inmotion. We were discussing different thing and feedback. 

What Inmotion are making right now are very different to what we have seen in the past. From my perspective it is sad how focus they are on speed this time. Not a good move in my eyes but I also know not all see it like that. 

Now the great news is they learned from V10f V11 and V12. And the way forward for them holds a lot of promise as I see it. Since Inmotion has not gone public I cannot share details. I am pretty sure the price tag will show that we are not talking V8 here.

As of suspension I am a bit unsure but you will get that once Inmotion go public. This is very different approach to anything we have seen earlier. 

Now they didn't give a release time but I suspect it will take a little time. I doubt it is a summer time wheel for EU/US maybe later this year. 

[techyiam]

21 minutes ago, Unventor said:

As of suspension I am a bit unsure but you will get that once Inmotion go public. This is very different approach to anything we have seen earlier.

You mean the V13 suspension isn't going to look like this anymore?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/hongkongeuc/posts/1259788831166463/

 

 

[LeGiroquoi]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

 From my perspective it is sad how focus they are on speed this time. Not a good move in my eyes but I also know not all see it like that. 

I agree with you. I would prefer if Inmotion would continue in branding themselves to be quality-based non performance wheel manufacturers. Leave Gotway be begode.

Like if they only listen to the YouTubers that only believe in speed.

I have 6 kids here, from 6 years old to teenagers. Never would I buy them a Master, and even for me, why such a thing?. Best wheels I bought them are the mcm5 and the 16x, although the 16x has some dust/water issue. And the V12 is way to heavy for them.

I still dream of a small suspension wheel..

[meepmeepmayer]

You don't have to decide between speed and quality/innovation. You can have both.

Now I'm really wondering what new thing they plan. Something feeling closer to a motorbike than an ebike maybe? Well, we will see (eventually... like the new V12 board... some day).

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You don't have to decide between speed and quality/innovation. You can have both.

You can, but history has taught us that quality comes from dedication and iterations, not from the latest and fastest.

And it seems that you do have to decide between speed and weight.

 

[Unventor]

6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You don't have to decide between speed and quality/innovation. You can have both.

Now I'm really wondering what new thing they plan. Something feeling closer to a motorbike than an ebike maybe? Well, we will see (eventually... like the new V12 board... some day).

If you like speed them V13 would be on the list of wheel to consider. But you will see that this will come at a "cost". @mrelwoodput it nicely. It is very clear Inmotion mean business with this wheel.

I don't know any numbers yet. But their way to development and design language has changed a lot. It is not done in the Gotway way, just slapping on a bigger battery and forgetting wires and other things need to be upgraded too. 

I am of course curious about the end result. But the cost of the speed I personally would never tap into is not making this must buy wheel for me. And we still don't know how it will ride or feel yet. 

Some will like it some will not. But the question is if Gotway riders would ever buy an Inmotion wheel to begin with. I doubt it. So what you end up with is a wheel made for Gotway riders and if that will suit riders that liked Inmotion.

I also think it could create problems for EU riders because the design is for speed far above what is legal in EU countries that allow EUCs. So development cost could end up to have fewer customers to be devided towards. Leading to high development cost pr unit. 

But the do have some very smart thoughts on how to mitigate this somewhat. 

[Unventor]

12 hours ago, techyiam said:

You mean the V13 suspension isn't going to look like this anymore?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/hongkongeuc/posts/1259788831166463/

I can't go into detail on this. But I am sure the move will come as a surprise to most. 

My first word was "ohhh ehh hmm" then I thought maybe this is not as bad an idea. As I thought more about it it made much more sense. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Unventor

[meepmeepmayer]

Going by your allusions, I now expect a one-wheeled motorcycle for 5000+€.

[techyiam]

On 5/3/2022 at 3:19 PM, Unventor said:

But the question is if Gotway riders would ever buy an Inmotion wheel to begin with. I doubt it. So what you end up with is a wheel made for Gotway riders and if that will suit riders that liked Inmotion.

I started on a Begode T3, and then bought an Inmotion  V12. I had to go through an adaptation phase first. But after that, a second phase to fine tune the wheel,  which is no trivial task. I now like the V12's smooth and refined feel more, and of course the higher performance. You also may be under estimating the V12 performance when it is well tuned. It is no slouch, at least for many regular riders. I don't need 113 km/h top speed, but 50 km/h top speed is also limiting. 

 

On 5/3/2022 at 3:19 PM, Unventor said:

But you will see that this will come at a "cost".

I have a feeling the costs will include heavier weight, and highest price for an Inmotion wheel.

Edited May 5, 2022 by techyiam

[Rollin-on-1]

3 hours ago, Unventor said:

I can't go into detail on this. But I am sure the move will come as a surprise to most. 

My first word was "ohhh ehh hmm" then I thought maybe this is not as bad an idea. As I thought more about it it made much more sense. 

Leaf springs?  Mag-lev suspension?  😁

[Unventor]

4 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Leaf springs?  Mag-lev suspension?  😁

I don't know what type or design of it. It is more how they approach this. But once Inmotion makes public announcement you will understand what I mean. 

[Unventor]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

I have a feeling the costs will include heavier weight, and highest price for an Inmotion wheel.

When I say "cost" it is what I view as downside or cons that I would not have in as high degree if we had less focus on top speed. 

I don't know specification numbers, only discussed feedback and design option and direction of development. 

But that said Inmotion have hed head right on to become more competitive on other things than safety alone. 

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Going by your allusions, I now expect a one-wheeled motorcycle for 5000+€.

I doubt it will hit that high a price. But I can't see it being "a" €2000 wheel either. 

[Kekafuch]

20 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I doubt it will hit that high a price. But I can't see it being "a" €2000 wheel either. 

EUCO YouTube interview of Inmotion CEO , he revealed InMotion wants to make an extreme wheel showcasing all the possible technologies of the times. A focus on performance and AI. A wheel that may not be for sale even and would be very high priced. Seemed to hint at upwards of $20,000 USD.  Not saying it’s the V13 but maybe… 
 

He then said V5 14” wheel would also get an update after the “Sherman type performance wheel” which turned out to be the V12.
 

 

[Paul A]

Perhaps active suspension.

[techyiam]

35 minutes ago, Unventor said:

When I say "cost" it is what I view as downside or cons that I would not have in as high degree if we had less focus on top speed.

That is how I understood it. I would consider higher weight and higher price to be cons, and therefore, I thought you would too. I have a feeling now that you are meaning something more con, something that is a direct result of insane top speed?

I do understand that you have to be sufficiently vague in order to keep your integrity (NDA, legal too?), and thus protect the company's product proprietary information, and at the same time provide enough of a tidbit to tease. In doing so, your source won't dry up. A win-win for everyone. Appreciate your efforts. 

[techyiam]

22 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Perhaps active suspension.

Now, that would surely be something no one would be expecting.  But where is the technology coming from, and at what cost? If Inmotion can get the sliders right, a proper sizeed shock, rising rate links, and low stiction and play, I would be happy.

On the topic of outside-the-box suspension designs, how about a suspension mechanism based on a scissor lift, no sliders, just pin joints and links?

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Kekafuch said:

EUCO YouTube interview of Inmotion CEO , he revealed InMotion wants to make an extreme wheel

The interview was already some time ago, and I’m sure they have had to make all kinds of changes to their plans based on the markets and the current trends. I haven’t heard anything about the extreme wheel since the interview.

2 hours ago, Kekafuch said:

He then said V5 14” wheel would also get an update after the “Sherman type performance wheel” which turned out to be the V12.

I personally don’t see the V12 as much of a Sherman competitor, since the clear #1 point of the Sherman is the huge battery. But I could be wrong, and Inmotion could of course see it differently.

 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I do understand that you have to be sufficiently vague in order to keep your integrity (NDA, legal too?)

We’re not under an NDA, except for the mutual understanding that in order for the current communication channels to exist, they must remain private.

If I ever get allowed to share any news from Inmotion (or other manufacturers), I will clearly state so in the announcement.

51 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Now, that would surely be something no one would be expecting.

Already from looking at the competition, even a basic bicycle level suspension is still quite far ahead in the future. An active suspension would be so cool, but since none of the manufacturers have yet to find a good basic sliding system, I think their efforts are much  better directed in getting the basics right, and not reaching for the moon before the rocket even flies.

51 minutes ago, techyiam said:

If Inmotion can get the sliders right, a proper sizeed shock, rising rate links, and low stiction and play, I would be happy.

Me too!

51 minutes ago, techyiam said:

On the topic of outside-the-box suspension designs, how about a suspension mechanism based on a scissor lift, no sliders, just pin joints and links?

Now that would be something! Though, in order for it be stable enough and to be able to bear enough weight sideways the joints and the rods would have to be quite massive. The left and right sides have to perfectly in sync after all. The room for batteries is already at a premium.

 Actually, I think it still wouldn’t get rid of the need for some kind of sliding system. If the top pairs of the scissors are joined through a shock, the lower pairs are connected to the motor. And since they have to be stable front to back, there would have to be a rail or a guiding rod to keep the lower pair horizontal.

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

That is how I understood it. I would consider higher weight and higher price to be cons, and therefore, I thought you would too. I have a feeling now that you are meaning something more con, something that is a direct result of insane top speed?

I do understand that you have to be sufficiently vague in order to keep your integrity (NDA, legal too?), and thus protect the company's product proprietary information, and at the same time provide enough of a tidbit to tease. In doing so, your source won't dry up. A win-win for everyone. Appreciate your efforts. 

You hit the nail here. I am not under a signed NDA as the discussion I participate would only happen because of mutual understanding and that it previously has been seen beneficial to Inmotion. 

Now the feedback are devided into personal views but also collected of opinions from the forum over time. 

This balance seems to bring bigger weight and arguments gets much stronger for all interests. 

A general topics that was suggested is easy service in mind on several levels. 

As an example tubeless tire. This has a benafit to be able to fix punctures without removing the tire and also give more sidewall strength as wheels gets heavier and less risk för snakebite punctures/valve tearing from tube due to torque forces and no battles to get the valve in a good position. It would also give a more mc feel to quality. 

But there are downsides to it too. As a heavier tire means more centrifuge force as speeds get higher making turning move difficult. Inmotion listen but the end decission comes from testing and what impact it has on other things. 

Another thing I have raised on more than one time is use of stainless screws. But I got an explanation to why this is not used now, a very valid reason. One that I never considered before. But as wheels at higher cost tend to live long at the customer and we also tend to ride not just summer season in some areas, service play a much bigger role now. So we will see if they come up with a better solution.

It was a fairly long meeting I had. But I truly thing a lot of good things will come out of this for all riders.

Things at Inmotion is not happening at random. And one thing is very clearly is the V12 mosfet problems are a thing that they take very large steps to avoid in future designs. Which also bring a lot of other benefits due to this. 

Now I am curious on what they create. I like my V11. That weight is no problem riding. And it is manageable when you need to lift it a few stairs or into a car or do service. 

Inmotion know this. But speed is now very high on the list of what sells this upcoming wheel. With the necessary construction to have safety margins too. 

[Rollin-on-1]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Now, that would surely be something no one would be expecting.  But where is the technology coming from, and at what cost? If Inmotion can get the sliders right, a proper sizeed shock, rising rate links, and low stiction and play, I would be happy.

On the topic of outside-the-box suspension designs, how about a suspension mechanism based on a scissor lift, no sliders, just pin joints and links?

I was wondering about something similar to the Dualtron scooter C-type suspension with polymer torsion bands except use two of them (one forward and one behind.  The polymer torsion bands come in different rates and are inexpensive and easy to swap.  They are light compared to air or coil shocks and don't take up a lot of space.  It wouldn't be great for big jumps, but would be decent for street riding which is where I'd image a speed wheel will be anyway.

[Kai Drange]

13 hours ago, Unventor said:

I also think it could create problems for EU riders because the design is for speed far above what is legal in EU countries that allow EUCs. So development cost could end up to have fewer customers to be devided towards. Leading to high development cost pr unit. 

But the do have some very smart thoughts on how to mitigate this somewhat. 

High speed, something different, moves to mitigate EU laws somewhat... Could it be their intent/hope is to make an expensive high-speed wheel that can be legally registered as a motorbike? I don't know what it would take for an EUC to get number plates in EU countries. I know I can't register my V10 in Norway now, but no clue as to why not.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

I was wondering about something similar to the Dualtron scooter C-type suspension with polymer torsion bands except use two of them (one forward and one behind.  The polymer torsion bands come in different rates and are inexpensive and easy to swap.  They are light compared to air or coil shocks and don't take up a lot of space.  It wouldn't be great for big jumps, but would be decent for street riding which is where I'd image a speed wheel will be anyway.

I am not quite sure if I understood you correctly. Are suggesting hanging from the sprung mass (rider, pedals, battery packs, controller, and etc.) a swingarm from the front, and another swingarm from the back so that you can mount the axle of the wheel onto the swingarms axle end?

[Rollin-on-1]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

I am not quite sure if I understood you correctly. Are suggesting hanging from the sprung mass (rider, pedals, battery packs, controller, and etc.) a swingarm from the front

Perhaps referring to the C-type suspension is causing the confusion.  In an EUC config, it would be more of a flattened diamond shape with the sprung weight fixed at the top of the diamond and the bottom of the diamond attached to the axle.  Some sort of horizontal slider support would still be needed to allow the hinge on either side to move as the suspension travel changes.  However, the distance the sliders need to move would be much less than the distance the sliders move on the S22. 

As I think more on the design, it probably introduces too many potential pinch points.  If it were easy to design a simple, light-weight, effective, and cost effective suspension then we would have better options already.

[techyiam]

12 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

In an EUC config, it would be more of a flattened diamond shape with the sprung weight fixed at the top of the diamond and the bottom of the diamond attached to the axle.  Some sort of horizontal slider support would still be needed to allow the hinge on either side to move as the suspension travel changes.  However, the distance the sliders need to move would be much less than the distance the sliders move on the S22.

Thank you for your detailed explanation.