Inmotion V13 Speculation

[The Brahan Seer]

I'm not sure what you disagree with maybe the mechanisms involved which ultimately doesn't matter. We don't have to understand everything and why.  I do agree with you that the faster you go the greater the risks and the more likely you are to hurt yourself. If nothing more the reaction times need to be very quick and the strength/skill level immense to avoid an accident. I also agree that having fun on EUC's doesn't need to involve going fast and for most its far more relaxing to go slower and enjoy the ride. Maybe the preoccupation of fast wheels is just because they haven't existed before. Whether they will trend to go even faster remains to be seen.

[Tawpie]

I believe it's not really a disagreement, different falls happen differently. The physics still rule of course, but different falls bring different aspects into play.

Speed is just plain problematic—among other things if you start rolling or tumbling that is no bueno. Still, the height of your fall is the same at all speeds. Stopping with minimum additional impact is always better—do try to slide it out if you can.

I'm not entirely sure about hard backpacks—watched a vid where a rider got clipped and fell backwards. His Boblebee kept his back off the ground and his head whiplashed in, I'm pretty sure he was knocked out for a bit. Plus and minus, he was wearing a moto helmet—plus is better padding, minus is more weight for the whiplash. I'm sticking with a back protector for fall protection, and making sure hard and sharp objects are as padded as I can make them so they hurt less when they're jammed into my kidney.

As always, figure out the risks you're willing to take. There is no shame in being risk averse!

[yoos]

26 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

When a wheel stops balancing its gravity that pulls you down not an additional rotational force. The wheel has literally turned off or stopped producing momentum.

If what you are saying is true then you need to explain what the force is, where it comes from and how it acts on the body. 

None of these things are opinions we are talking about they are facts that have been proved by people a lot smarter than me like newton. Whether you believe the facts or not is up to you. But it doesn't change them.

It's not about the wheel, I am discussing what happens when a person is dropped down at speed vs no speed. Once your feet touch the ground, they experience friction. This friction imparts a horizontal momentum as well as angular momentum. This means the body starts to rotate. When a thing is rotating, the velocity of its extremities is changing direction, i.e. horizontal momentum transforms into vertical momentum. If you wish, I can later draw up a draft of this mechanics problem.

 

32 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

None of these things are opinions we are talking about they are facts that have been proved by people a lot smarter than me like newton. Whether you believe the facts or not is up to you. But it doesn't change them.

Indeed, I speak from my physics knowledge rather than EUC rider experience. I have taught theoretical mechanics to undergrads which is why I am reasonably confident in my understanding  

[The Brahan Seer]

8 minutes ago, yoos said:

 While the (vertical) force of gravity is the same, horizontal friction can drag one's feet back, imparting rotational kinetic energy to the body (since legs go back, upper body goes forward). This rotational movement (angular momentum, technically speaking) ultimately means that the upper body will slam into the ground with extra speed (as compared to what gravity alone would produce). 

In addition to this mechanical effect which translates horizontal momentum from friction into vertical momentum of the upper body, the feet-dragging effect prevents a run-out and means you won't absorb much impact with your legs. In other words, it's very hard to fall efficiently at speed when your feet stick to the ground. This is exacerbated by EUC riders favoring footwear with good grip while motorcycle boots often have flat plasticky soles. I assume that's intentionally made to improve sliding.

In this context I understand the meaning of the potential rotational movement and totally agree. The stickiness is a very valid point. Its very hard to know at what level and what material gives the optimal not too sticky but sticky enough result. So to alleviate the problem ride slower and its less of an issue.  

[The Brahan Seer]

@yoos I'm sorry my reply "i'm not sure what you disagree with.." wasn't aimed at your response but the one before. Crossed lines. We are all friends here. You contribution was very helpful in understanding what was being said. Thank you.

[yoos]

27 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

@yoos I'm sorry my reply "i'm not sure what you disagree with.." wasn't aimed at your response but the one before. Crossed lines. We are all friends here. You contribution was very helpful in understanding what was being said. Thank you.

No worries, it's all good .

33 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Its very hard to know at what level and what material gives the optimal not too sticky but sticky enough result.

I remember one lucky landing by chooch where he managed to land on his knee guards (leatt dual axis) and slide it out without rolling. Perhaps there is a way to train this kind of landing to avoid gripping asphalt with the shoesoles. I tried falling on my knees with the leatts on and it's quite comfortable, the impact is completely dampened. It's just that this is not a natural reflex reaction to falling.

[Paul A]

Maybe consider an extreme example of speed.

If an EUC rider was travelling at three hundred mph (300mph), has a cut out, and falls....the vertical force would be the same as for a stationary person falling over.

Gravity is the only vertical force acting on both persons.

 

If the rider at 300mph was travelling over smooth ice and slid, the crash would probably be harmless.

 

If the rider at 300mph was travelling over a conventional bitumen road with greater friction, causing the rider to tumble, the crash would probably be more harmful than at 10 mph.

 

Every comment seems to be correct in isolation.  

[Tawpie]

12 minutes ago, yoos said:

Perhaps there is a way to train this kind of landing to avoid gripping asphalt with the shoesoles

WrongWay Adam is quite good at that now... but he's cutout pretty much every wheel he's been on, and done it at max speed "a lot". He's experienced enough to keep his fingers raised and everything!

I hope I never get that good.

BTW, if you're really zooming on your V13 and you do crash and can't stay on your plastic hand and knee sliders, expensive moto gear is rated for its ability to not burn you and not tear in a slide. Regular clothing (including shoes)—instantly shredded when you're going quickly.

[yoos]

1 minute ago, Tawpie said:

expensive moto gear is rated for its ability to not burn you and not tear in a slide

Indeed, but for most EUC riders basic A rated mc gear is completely sufficient. Any decent leather shoes will also withstand a slide. At my speeds (self-imposed 40kmh cap at the moment) road rash is a minor issue compared to breaking things (I do wear an AA mc jacket, mc gloves in addition to wrist guards, knee guards, helmet and leather ankle boots).

Funny how in a few years EUCs went from "you're too slow to be on the road, it's dangerous and ridiculous" to "please stop overtaking cars recklessly and start observing traffic rules". Perhaps V13 riders will become the Mercedes-S-class drivers of EUCs: using a brilliant and powerful machine to commute lethargically but with prestige.

[Paul A]

Cycling road rash.

 

[Eucner]

5 hours ago, yoos said:

Indeed, but for most EUC riders basic A rated mc gear is completely sufficient. Any decent leather shoes will also withstand a slide. At my speeds (self-imposed 40kmh cap at the moment) road rash is a minor issue compared to breaking things (I do wear an AA mc jacket, mc gloves in addition to wrist guards, knee guards, helmet and leather ankle boots).

Do you also have your butt covered? Speed wobble or emergency braking might make you fall on your butt. At 45 km/h you would need at least AA rated pants.

[Unventor]

6 hours ago, Tawpie said:

WrongWay Adam is quite good at that now... but he's cutout pretty much every wheel he's been on, and done it at max speed "a lot". He's experienced enough to keep his fingers raised and everything!

Yet at one time he did break his arm. I stopped watching his stuff as I am no fan of speed devils. 

[Grimm10]

21 minutes ago, Eucner said:

Do you also have your butt covered? Speed wobble or emergency braking might make you fall on your butt. At 45 km/h you would need at least AA rated pants.

At that speed, it all Depends

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Eucner said:

Do you also have your butt covered? Speed wobble or emergency braking might make you fall on your butt. At 45 km/h you would need at least AA rated pants.

Just curious, are you speaking from experience? 🙂

With the popularity of 134V wheels or V13's, How to Gear Up for a Big Crash, and How to Crash an EUC may become a thing.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Yet at one time he did break his arm. I stopped watching his stuff as I am no fan of speed devils. 

I have to say one thing, Adam does not seem to mind high relative speeds while traveling by pedestrians traffic or car traffic.

Edited May 26, 2022 by techyiam

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Eucner said:

Do you also have your butt covered? Speed wobble or emergency braking might make you fall on your butt. At 45 km/h you would need at least AA rated pants.

While some find this funny, others learned a few lessons the hard way and respect speed. Search the forum for my crash history. 

There is a reason behind my limits to risk I take these days. Not all of us are 25 year old immortals with super healing powers. 

And the next bit to consider is how long does it take for 70km+ lonely wheel to bounch/tumble/euc ballet to a stand still and how many will it hit on the way. 

Is is t just your speed that impact you as a rider it can have consequences for people in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

Like the cutout at rany night by WrongWay on a bridge. 

[Paul A]

EUC crash at 39 mph/63 kph, tumble.

 

[That Guy]

Reading the last couple of pages about this future V13 I feel increasingly anxious... No thanks, I no longer need that dangerous wheel! Should probably stick with Master... 

Edited May 27, 2022 by That Guy

[Forwardnbak]

i am still pretty keen to look at this wheel if it ever shows itself 

[Eucner]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

Just curious, are you speaking from experience? 🙂

With the popularity of 134V wheels or V13's, How to Gear Up for a Big Crash, and How to Crash an EUC may become a thing.

No, so far I have only fallen forward. Some other riders have fallen backwards and we should be able to learn from their experience. The butt is too underrated place to get protected. With new big suspension wheels it easier to ride fast. The road rash protection should be on the level of speed. The jacket and pants should also be connected for good coverage.

[yoos]

42 minutes ago, Eucner said:

No, so far I have only fallen forward. Some other riders have fallen backwards and we should be able to learn from their experience. The butt is too underrated place to get protected

Indeed, the butt is often overlooked. In icy-snowy weather I do wear armored shorts under my pants, but I do not have any motorcycle pants sadly. I hate buying pants as I need to try on many pants before I find a good fit, so I need to visit multiple physical stores, wait in line for the changing room and then unlace and lace my shoes all the time. With mc pants the selection is even narrower and there are even more demands on fit for protection to be in the right places. They are also expensive. As a commuter I also like the convenience to simply wear Leatt Dual Axis over my work pants (which are usually chinos). 

I have fallen backwards ~10 times, always below 10kph: once when learning, and many times on ice or offroading (typically on slow descent of steep crumbling hills). The armored pants help nicely [but I only had them on in winter], they also save hips in a side-fall which happened to me when the EUC slided out of a turn on icy stone. 

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, Eucner said:

No, so far I have only fallen forward. Some other riders have fallen backwards and we should be able to learn from their experience. The butt is too underrated place to get protected. With new big suspension wheels it easier to ride fast. The road rash protection should be on the level of speed. The jacket and pants should also be connected for good coverage.

The reason I asked is because I have never fallen backwards either, and I don't normally hear or see others fallen back either. I have almost fallen backwards twice during emergency braking. This was during the time the braking on the V12 was absmal without pads. Hsiang fell backwards on a V11 while going over a man hole cover in a spectacular accident he had in New York City. He speculated that the stuff in his backpack saved him. He did not mentioned about his butt suffering from abrasion. 

However, it is good insight that you brought this up. I have two one-piece motorcycle suits. But I don't think to wear them while riding euc's. But once I get riding at those elevated speeds, I will have have to rethink that. 

[The Brahan Seer]

19 hours ago, Unventor said:

I stopped watching his stuff as I am no fan of speed devils. 

He has moderated his speed and riding over the last few months. We all (mostly) grow up eventually. He even has a big go at Begode and its safety issues. Maybe worth giving him another look. 

[Tobey]

Reading the history of posts after a while - just wanted to thank you all for the safety discussion inspired by the V13 topic. I mean riding EUC is a unique amazing experience but I think we have a lot to work out before building even faster wheels and focusing on speed instead ever asking what will that translate to when things don't work out well even for a top rider with a lot of experience. I hope the recent tragedy will inspire more caution for all. I'd like EUCs to be legal and find their place in the transportation realm.

[Robse]

Secret: New leaked photo from Inmotion "brainstorm and development division" x-name: Rectractable wheel 12.997½