Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[DavidB]

10 hours ago, Rawnei said:

What's so vulnerable about it? It seems pretty barebones and robust, batteryboxes, suspension, top part with controller, bumper, no shell, seems like it could be pretty durable to me, the Sherman on the other hand the roll cage is not as protective as you think, it can detach from the shell and even deform, it's not super hard, an unfortunate hit on the sidepanels can cause damage to BMS, looks can be deceiving. 😊

The obvious one for me is the attachment of the kickstand to or near the battery compartment. Not many (any?) will do Leahy type jumps but I can imagine an off-road tumble with the wheel landing on those rigid aluminium kickstand supports. With an approximate 5 to 1 lever ratio I can visualise the top attachment being crushed into the battery case and we know what happens when you crush Li-ion batteries.

The best solution I could come up with over the last year was just a simple tube (carbon or glass) extending horizontally rearwards from the inside of the pedals to just past the tire. Stiff enough to support the wheel as a stand but will flex in a crash. I was concerned about impaling but joining the 2 together solved that and made a more stable stand. Jack, you can use this idea if you want.

Edited August 27, 2021 by DavidB
additional info

[mike_bike_kite]

I really like the info display but is there any info on what it will be able to show? Can the user select what's shown? Will different values be shown in different colours like battery percentage in green? Can the user change the colours and brightness? Could you perhaps show display different things at the same time (perhaps using bars in different colours)? Or perhaps display one thing when moving (speed) and something else when stopped (battery level). 

[FunTech4Real]

3 hours ago, DavidB said:

It would be nice tho' if there was an easy way to reduce suspension travel for road riding so as to lower pedals, CoG and increase stability when you don't need 5 inches of travel.

Put an air shock with lockout on it and you can turn off the shock for street riding (You can do this on the S18).  If you want to lower it for street riding, put an air shock on it and let the air out and you basically have no shock (not recommended). I ride my V11 everywhere and the suspension is still very useful to have on the road as there are still plenty of bumps on the road. I personally love the super high pedal height of the V11 (about the same as S20) even for street riding. It provides incredibly agility and turning at lower speeds. The pedal height is adjustable if you want a lower center of gravity, but the pedals are always going to be high on a suspension wheel.

[FunTech4Real]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I really like the info display but is there any info on what it will be able to show? Can the user select what's shown? Will different values be shown in different colours like battery percentage in green? Can the user change the colours and brightness? Could you perhaps show display different things at the same time (perhaps using bars in different colours)? Or perhaps display one thing when moving (speed) and something else when stopped (battery level). 

They are not done with the display yet and they currently don't know exactly what it will display but they said at least battery level and speed (although perhaps not both at the same time)

[Rawnei]

So having made and paid my pre-order already I did some more thinking about couple of things that are a bit worry-some to me.

On paper the wheel looks great but Jack mentioned that he don't have his own working prototype yet and that there are no prototypes sent out to testers yet (which he estimated would happen "maybe" in September), that means that the wheel exists in theory and probably an early prototype that they do some testing on but that the pre-production prototypes remains to be produced and that the design, software and hardware hasn't been tested fully tested in a larger scale yet, will the S20 really be production ready in November-December?

We all know there's almost always issues of varying degrees with first batch wheels, pre-production prototyping and in-house testing is very important to find issues before the end-user does, if they discover issues I hope they delay production with whatever time they need to fix those issues, rather wait a couple more months than to have problems that could have been avoided.

I also saw a spec sheets circulating already, it mentions a weight of 28kg in the sheets (which seems kinda low to me), meanwhile Jack said on the evx stream that he estimate the prototype they have to be around 35kg, a bit conflicting information here, where did 28kg come from?

These things are red flags to me and maybe pre-ordering goes against my better judgement. 🤔😓

Just some thoughts I hope it will be fine.

[fbhb]

Taken from a recent Facebook post

Edited August 27, 2021 by fbhb

[meepmeepmayer]

11 hours ago, shure2 said:

What's everyone's opinion on the battery. This should be a 4p arrangement with the LG cell realistically outputting 10A

Therefore the battery can provide 40A total. I think the Sherman is nearer 100A? 

Some efficiency gain at 126v vs 100v though.

So far, no 4p wheel has had any problems where the battery turned out too weak. All the 1800Wh wheels are 4p, like the RS or V12, which are immensely powerful wheels. Nobody ever complained. And you can force a pedal dip from standstill even on a Sherman, so that's a firmware limitation and not the battery.

The cutoff seems to be between 3p which isn't enough for "performance" needs (e.g. the S18 had some complaints), and 4p which has always worked so far.

Additionally, the higher voltage means less current (20% less even compared to 100V) plus from that also less voltage drop. So if 4p worked for 84V and 100V, it's certainly going to work for 126V (<- still very impressed that KS are the first to do this).

I have no worries. Of course only reality can tell if everything is one would expect.

Edited August 27, 2021 by meepmeepmayer

[meepmeepmayer]

@Jack King SongYou did a fantastic job selling the S20 and the ideas behind it on the livestream!

[fryman]

I'm thinking the chrome wheel(rim) would add some contrast.

[Rawnei]

17 hours ago, enaon said:

not on latest s18 firmware (2.07), the wheel will not spin, it will only give enouph force to get it up the step. 

Oh really? I would very much like to see a video of this! If it's true it's quite an awesome feature.

[Greg X]

it is interresting, how much client can Pay for a toy, which can be easily destroyed after one crash. 

4k, 5k, 6k, 8k ?

[mhpr262]

2 minutes ago, Greg X said:

it is interresting, how much client can Pay for a toy, which can be easily destroyed after one crash. 

4k, 5k, 6k, 8k ?

Huh? You know a much more expensive car can be destroyed in a single crash too, and last time I looked there was no shortage of those things on the roads.

[Tasku]

Why is no-one talking about the higher effiency on this hollow-motor that is supposed to be new and improved? I wonder for who this 200km range estimate is for(45kg and no wind resistance?). But even for 120kg rider one should expect 100km ride distance if this high effiency rating is reality. Just throwing numbers here. Usually I take atleast 30% away from the estimated range distance of any wheel. I was not worried about the hollow motor per say, but sure hope they finish the water sealing and make it as good as possible.

I had some hope for anti-theft.. I wonder if you can attach bicycle locks into this device to secure it? If not please think of this! (I would prefer using chains to lock it)

[Scoo]

24 minutes ago, Tasku said:

Why is no-one talking about the higher effiency on this hollow-motor that is supposed to be new and improved? I wonder for who this 200km range estimate is for(45kg and no wind resistance?). But even for 120kg rider one should expect 100km ride distance if this high effiency rating is reality. Just throwing numbers here. Usually I take atleast 30% away from the estimated range distance of any wheel. I was not worried about the hollow motor per say, but sure hope they finish the water sealing and make it as good as possible.

Can't find it now but Kingsong wrote somewhere that they used a 60kg rider riding 20 km/h on flat road to manage this.

I think it is not impossible with those parameters. When i was riding my V11 at around 20 km/h during my learning period i was getting similar 11wh/km and i am 70 kg with all protection so similar total weight :P.

But as you say this is not how this will be used. My guess is that range will probably be between 70km(30wh/km) to 130km(16wh/km) depending on average speed and weight of the rider. (Using 2100wh)

Edited August 27, 2021 by Scoo

[jimjam.nyc]

17 minutes ago, Tasku said:

Why is no-one talking about the higher effiency on this hollow-motor that is supposed to be new and improved? I wonder for who this 200km range estimate is for(45kg and no wind resistance?). But even for 120kg rider one should expect 100km ride distance if this high effiency rating is reality. Just throwing numbers here. Usually I take atleast 30% away from the estimated range distance of any wheel. I was not worried about the hollow motor per say, but sure hope they finish the water sealing and make it as good as possible.

I had some hope for anti-theft.. I wonder if you can attach bicycle locks into this device to secure it? If not please think of this! (I would prefer using chains to lock it)

There is just too much "amazing" going on around this wheel for me to believe it all. One of the things is the range claim. I don't know if it can be even close to a real estimate. 

The other thing is, as of now. There is NO WHEEL. it is a render and is very pre-production form. I will reserve judgement until things get closer to release. 

Dont take that as me being negative on the s20. I think it looks like it could be a great wheel. It just seems some of the things being said are a bit pre-mature for the stage that the wheel is in. Also just some of the stuff being said on the live stream seemed a bit manufactured. Ofcourse the King Song rep is going to claim this thing is the holy grail of wheels, and you can ride for 200km, and it can REALLY go 90kmh but we don't feel safe. BLAH BLAH. I ignore all that stuff and look at what is realistic. 

Even cutting through all the hype. I am excited for this wheel. It looks to be a real winner. We will see by the time you can actually get your hands on it, if it is still as exciting lol.. 

[Rawnei]

27 minutes ago, Tasku said:

Why is no-one talking about the higher effiency on this hollow-motor that is supposed to be new and improved? I wonder for who this 200km range estimate is for(45kg and no wind resistance?). But even for 120kg rider one should expect 100km ride distance if this high effiency rating is reality. Just throwing numbers here. Usually I take atleast 30% away from the estimated range distance of any wheel. I was not worried about the hollow motor per say, but sure hope they finish the water sealing and make it as good as possible.

I had some hope for anti-theft.. I wonder if you can attach bicycle locks into this device to secure it? If not please think of this! (I would prefer using chains to lock it)

It says in the presentation that 200km is based on a 60kg rider at 20kmh which in reality doesn't mean much.

[div]

24 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

One of the things is the range claim

I can get 120Km (70Kg, riding softly) from the 18XLs 1550Wh, so except if this EUC is less energy efficient or the battery min voltage is higher it might be possible..

Edited August 27, 2021 by div

[rexdelmolvo]

Very excited for this wheel, a suspension wheel that touches up everything I was disappointed in in the last generation has me very hopeful. The V11 let me down (literally, mine cut out within 5 minutes of use lol) but I loved riding with suspension while I did. We haven't got any info on the max rider load yet, have we? I've put a on little bit of weight since last I rode, hahaha

[.....]

37 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

There is just too much "amazing" going on around this wheel for me to believe it all. One of the things is the range claim. I don't know if it can be even close to a real estimate. 

The other thing is, as of now. There is NO WHEEL. it is a render and is very pre-production form. I will reserve judgement until things get closer to release. 

Dont take that as me being negative on the s20. I think it looks like it could be a great wheel. It just seems some of the things being said are a bit pre-mature for the stage that the wheel is in. Also just some of the stuff being said on the live stream seemed a bit manufactured. Ofcourse the King Song rep is going to claim this thing is the holy grail of wheels, and you can ride for 200km, and it can REALLY go 90kmh but we don't feel safe. BLAH BLAH. I ignore all that stuff and look at what is realistic. 

Even cutting through all the hype. I am excited for this wheel. It looks to be a real winner. We will see by the time you can actually get your hands on it, if it is still as exciting lol.. 

People confuse hope and reality every day. Im already seeing claims of this being "THE BEST" wheel ever made. Of course, it hasnt even been made yet and best is an opinion. It aint negativity, its being realistic. GO ahead and try to argue that it isnt the best, and some fanboi will get angry and swear it is. I've been duped too many times AND recently. I may not be the brightest bulb in the fixture, but I am capable of learning and remembring things.  I do hope the s20 is a great wheel, but for now, anyone who claims much at all, is simply full of shit. These 'influencers' are overflowing with the bullshit as well. Same ole thing, sell people hope and what they want to hear. Truth doesnt sell as much as hope. At the end of the day, Kingsong and influencers are merely selling tickets. Telling you what you want to hear is a good way to do that. I mean hell, it worked for the colleges in usa too. People will believe almost anything. Makes it much easier to empty their pockets too.

Edited August 27, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[fryman]

21 minutes ago, rexdelmolvo said:

Very excited for this wheel, a suspension wheel that touches up everything I was disappointed in in the last generation has me very hopeful. The V11 let me down (literally, mine cut out within 5 minutes of use lol) but I loved riding with suspension while I did. We haven't got any info on the max rider load yet, have we? I've put a on little bit of weight since last I rode, hahaha

Thought I heard 120kg

[I_Must_Bust]

10 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

Meant December for you guys to get your hands on one. Misspoke sorry 

This is probably a good thing for me. Gonna start setting some cash aside to buy one in spring.

[RockyTop]

17 hours ago, itsmark said:

I noticed the pedals seem to hit the power pads when they are folded up. I am fine with this as long as the pedals have some way of staying up even though they aren't flush with the side of the wheel. It would bother me though if they don't stay put and just flop around instead.

It is very easy to keep the pedals in this position. You just raise the bump on the spring. I have made a few custom order springs for the S18 that do this. 

[Paul A]

Range approx 200km.

"Range test conditions, full power, 60kg load, ambient temperature of 25C, measured at a speed of 20 km/h, on a flat hardened road at a constant speed, the actual range varies according to speed, number of starts, stops, ambient temperature etc..."

 

 

[UniVehje]

5 hours ago, Tasku said:

Why is no-one talking about the higher effiency on this hollow-motor that is supposed to be new and improved? I wonder for who this 200km range estimate is for(45kg and no wind resistance?). But even for 120kg rider one should expect 100km ride distance if this high effiency rating is reality. Just throwing numbers here. Usually I take atleast 30% away from the estimated range distance of any wheel.

KS 18XL is pretty much still the gold standard on weight/range ratio. I crossed the 100 km mark carrying 10 kg bag pack and riding 25-27 km/h on country roads (GPS). That's with 1558 Wh battery. KS is very efficient already and this promises to make that even better. Plus KS is the only brand that allows you to ride down to 3V per cell and that gives maybe 20 extra kilometres(?). So the S20 will most definitely have amazing range. I'm expecting to get 150-160 km on my travels. I might use all the range once but most importantly this allows 100-120 km daily travel without ever carrying heavy fast charger or thinking about places where you can charge. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by UniVehje

[mrelwood]

 

12 hours ago, DavidB said:

It would be nice tho' if there was an easy way to reduce suspension travel for road riding so as to lower pedals, CoG and increase stability when you don't need 5 inches of travel.

Don’t know how easy it is to adjust, but the spring preload will do just that, both lower the riding height as well as make it stiffer.