Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[.....]

18 minutes ago, Blunzn said:

i like the S20 so far. perfect upgrade from my 18xl, as i definitly can use some more range.

some more questions

does it have a USB or USB-c outlet ? where is the chargeport and On/off button located ?

will normal griptape pedals (like the big 18xl) be available ? as a barefootshoe-rider i can't stand spikes  

 

Don't make the mistake of such lofty assumptions. We HOPE its a great wheel, but I have yet to see a single 'upgrade' from the 18L/xl series. Hope springs eternal of course, but don't quit your day job...

[FunTech4Real]

I like to verify that manufacturers are not lying about the power of their motors by doing some calculations with the batteries that power the motor. Its easy to calculate the maximum continuous power rating of the batteries in a device if you know the types of cells and configuration of them. If a device has batteries that can only put out 1,000 watts of continuous power and the manufacturer claims the motor is 2,000 watts continuous then you know the motor rating is BS.

I did the calculations for the new S20. I’m assuming its using LGM50T cells. Kingsong’s info page says it uses “LG50LT 21700” cells, but no such cells exist and every other recent wheel with 21700 LG cells uses LGM50T cells.

 

Conclusions:

1. S20 3,300 watt power rating is realistic with the batteries used in it. Note that the S18 was rated at 2,200 watts but the batteries in it couldn’t produce more than ~1,600 watts of power.
2. The Begode Hero appears to be using the same batteries as the RS19 (same cells and same configuration; the ewheels version will use different cells and cost more). Begode/Gotway claim that the Hero has 2,800 watts of continuous power, which is total BS as the battery pack was already limiting the power of the RS19 to 2,535 watts. Begode/Gotway is just flat out lying to try and make you feel like the new wheel is more powerful than the RS19. To be fair its less of a lie than the power rating of the S18 which is the worst power rating BS I’ve seen of the 20+ wheels and scooters I’ve done calculations for.
3. THANK YOU KINGSONG! If it was not for you I would be in a terrible situation of Gotway making the wheel that best suits my needs (Hero) but I wouldn’t want it because it’s a Gotway and its overpriced. The S20 is so freaking sweet I have zero interest in the Hero, and I’d still feel that way even if it was far cheaper than the S20 (but its not ).
   
   
   
   
   

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Lukasz said:

any info about true weight?

eWheels says 35kg

[Rawnei]

Just now, Tawpie said:

eWheels says 35kg

LOL now we have 29, 35, and 39. 🥳

[Ádám Szitás]

Any idea how you carry this thing? maybe by the front trolley handle with one hand and that's it?

 

[Tawpie]

16 minutes ago, sevin7 said:

If a device has batteries that can only put out 1,000 watts of continuous power and the manufacturer claims the motor is 2,000 watts continuous then you know the motor rating is BS

Nit picking, but the motor's ability to handle power is independent of the power system's ability to supply power. When the batteries are flat and can't deliver any power, the motor is still capable of handling it's rated power (hopefully)! At least that's how I interpret things like "max motor power".

[Tawpie]

2 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

Any idea how you carry this thing? maybe by the front trolley handle with one hand and that's it?

A rider with hex pedals on a V11 said putting your fingers through the holes in the pedals made it easy to lift and carry. Trolley handle in 1 hand, pedal in the other.

[Rawnei]

4 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

Any idea how you carry this thing? maybe by the front trolley handle with one hand and that's it?

Seems many places you can hold onto and carry it with two hands (ala Sherman) but will be interesting to see the "official" version.

[yoos]

2 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

Any idea how you carry this thing? maybe by the front trolley handle with one hand and that's it?

There is another handle (bumper handle) in front of the trolley handle. It would be better suited for lifting because you do not want to stress the trolley mechanism with the full wheel weight. On the other hand, it would then require a lift sensor of its own. So no idea. Perhaps there is something to grip in the rear, as suggested by someone, to lift it Sherman-style.

[FunTech4Real]

2 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Nit picking, but the motor's ability to handle power is independent of the power system's ability to supply power. When the batteries are flat and can't deliver any power, the motor is still capable of handling it's rated power (hopefully)! At least that's how I interpret things like "max motor power".

The S18 claims 2,200 watts and the V11 does. I have both wheels, the V11 has massively more power than the S18. The S18 is limited by the batteries. I've also spent a huge amount of time messing with a VESC controller that I put in my scooter and tested with different motors and batteries. The battery calculations I do line up with changing to higher output battery packs and testing in the real world. BLDC motors are hard to rate consistently and easy to lie about. If a manufacturer is claiming their motor power is far more than the batteries are capable of handling then they are just lying.

[yoos]

2 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

putting your fingers through the holes in the pedals made it easy to lift and carry. Trolley handle in 1 hand, pedal in the other.

Well, let's take this approach to the next level and put your fingers through the rim spokes.

[yoos]

1 minute ago, sevin7 said:

If a manufacturer is claiming their motor power is far more than the batteries are capable of handling then they are just lying.

Technically, they may be correct about the 2200W rating of the motor per se (so it's shady marketing, not outright lies), it's just that the battery pack indeed cannot sustain this power. So the motor is a proud 2200W, but the wheel as a whole is only 1500W . Which is why the lacking extra battery parallel makes such a difference in the S18. As I said KS plan to upgrade the S18 motor. I hope they also upgrade the pack to 20s4p somehow or find higher discharge batteries to support the 2200W.

[uCmeEUC]

Some more high-res renders of the wheel to gawk at

https://www.facebook.com/groups/kingsongs20/permalink/567941131056333/

Edited August 26, 2021 by uCmeEUC

[Scoo]

3 minutes ago, yoos said:

Technically, they may be correct about the 2200W rating of the motor per se (so it's shady marketing, not outright lies), it's just that the battery pack indeed cannot sustain this power. So the motor is a proud 2200W, but the wheel as a whole is only 1500W . Which is why the lacking extra battery parallel makes such a difference in the S18. As I said KS plan to upgrade the S18 motor. I hope they also upgrade the pack to 20s4p somehow or find higher discharge batteries to support the 2200W.

I agree that the motor continuous rating does not say much except that if the numbers are true then it is very hard to overheat them. It should be what the motor can handle continuous without overheating during standard cooling and operations normally i guess it is at +20°C.

For the s18 to draw 2200w continuous you should have to go at 50 km/h and have average losses of 44wh/km (2200/50=44) which is really high and the motor should not overheat. 

Peak power and torque would be more useful for us since we do not want to peak overpower the motor. 

[meepmeepmayer]

King Song really did everything right with this wheel. Wow. (I just wish they would show real photos.)

I'm confused about the tire size. The website says 2.75-14. Is that the same as all the "18 inch" wheels, or is this a bigger rim than the S18 etc?

[UniVehje]

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm confused about the tire size. The website says 2.75-14. Is that the same as all the "18 inch" wheels, or is this a bigger rim than the S18 etc?

That's exactly the same as all the other 18x3" wheels like Sherman, MSP, EX, MSX, V11 and S18. You can interchange the tires between them. It's just the motorcycle standard of saying the tire size. First width and then rim size. Bicycle tires say first approximate diameter and then approximate width. 

[shellac]

3 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

That's exactly the same as all the other 18x3" wheels like Sherman, MSP, EX, MSX, V11 and S18. You can interchange the tires between them. It's just the motorcycle standard of saying the tire size. First width and then rim size. Bicycle tires say first approximate diameter and then approximate width. 

It’s a weird thing to name it the S20 then isn’t it? What is the number 20 referring to? The 16X has a 16” tire and the S18 has the 18” tire. 

[meepmeepmayer]

2 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

That's exactly the same as all the other 18x3" wheels like Sherman, MSP, EX, MSX, V11 and S18.

Clear now, thanks!

So this is a S18 on steroids with a lot of improvements, and a direct competitor to the Hero. NICE!

(The name S20 seemed like it had a bigger tire/rim).

I'd buy one already if it weren't for the price (and possibly torque considerations). Phew, tempting

[Rawnei]

Live:

 

[yoos]

4 minutes ago, shellac said:

It’s a weird thing to name it the S20 then isn’t it?

Yes, the proper name fitting their own convention would probably be S18X. But increasing numbers is better from sales and marketing point of view.

[Paradox]

Ewheels says it has a 20" tire. 

King Song S20 Eagle. $100 Deposit

$100

 

Starting at $10/mo with Affirm. Prequalify now

 

• Tentative price of $3,200, expected first arrivals in late November
• 3,300W motor, 44.5MPH top speed
• 2,220Wh/126V battery pack, with SmartBMS
• 20″ tire, available in either street or knobby
• DNM Burner RCP-2S 240mm shock, with 130mm of travel
• Estimated weight: 66lb/35kg
• Other highlights: spiked pedals, integrated adjustable PowerPads, up to 10A rapid-charging (6A included), built-in kickstand

[UniVehje]

7 minutes ago, shellac said:

It’s a weird thing to name it the S20 then isn’t it? What is the number 20 referring to? The 16X has a 16” tire and the S18 has the 18” tire. 

Gotway started the trend with 19" and then Veteran came with 20" on the same size tire. It's all about marketing and "bigger number better" on spec sheets. The real size when measured is around 17.5" - 20" on these tires, depending on model. Knobby tires have a bit larger "real" diameter. But we should use the standard ways of marking the tires. So they all are either 18x3" or 2.75-14. Rim size would be best but that doesn't tell much. Tire width also increases the diameter. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by UniVehje

[travsformation]

6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Clear now, thanks!

So this is a S18 on steroids with a lot of improvements, and a direct competitor to the Hero. NICE!

(The name S20 seemed like it had a bigger tire/rim).

I'd buy one already if it weren't for the price (and possibly torque considerations). Phew, tempting

Yeah, seems to be the wheel many of us have been waiting for: an S18XL. 

But I have to admit, this really exceeded my expectations.

Well done KS and thanks for listening to our input @Jack King Song! 

[The Brahan Seer]

[meepmeepmayer]

Damn @Jack King Songsaying all the right things on that livestream

126V is for more torque while keeping a high max speed. And the max speed could even be higher if KS didn't want the 70kph limit.

$3300 MSRP at the moment.