Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[itsmark]

I would like for it to come with a more off-road focused tire (I voted for the 262), but it looks like I'm in the minority on that one.

[UniVehje]

1 hour ago, itsmark said:

I would like for it to come with a more off-road focused tire (I voted for the 262), but it looks like I'm in the minority on that one.

Looks like people on facebook and over here vote very differently. 

But the problem with K262 is sound and more importantly riding feel on smooth roads. It's not a bad tire but probably not best compromise to suit most use cases. These knobby tires tend to turn and carve poorly compared to street or hybrid tires. However, it's a matter of getting used to the feel mostly. Everyone can change the tire to whatever they want. Therefore, KS should use as default a tire that least amount of people would want to change. 

I've used two types of knobby tires as winter tire. Changing the tire is not a fun task. I certainly would not want either pure street tire (that I'd have to change for winter) or pure off-road tire (that i'd want to change for summer to keep it quiet, efficient and turning nicely) as stock. A hybrid like C-6004 I could leave on for most of the usage and if I need something else, I can always change it. 

[fbhb]

35 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

A hybrid like C-6004 I could leave on for most of the usage and if I need something else, I can always change it. 

I totally agree and is part of the reason I recently suggested the CST 6004 as an option to @Jack King Song (at which point they had already sourced one to test), based on my own experience and also my recommendation to other riders to try the tire.

It has stellar performance on road and is also quite capable (although not to knobby standards obviously) off road where it tracks/grips very precisely due to the extra profile along the tires edge (in stark contrast to the similar looking, but much poorer performing Kenda K340A)!

It is not going to be easy to please everyone, as can already be seen by the wildly varying voting between here and Facebook (can't believe that the skinniest of the 3 tires leads the voting there currently, especially as the S20 will have a 100mm wide wheel well!) but the CST 6004 performs so well All round that it makes the most sense IMHO!

Edited September 2, 2021 by fbhb

[Paul A]

Tyre choice is a bit of a minor detail.  User can rectify them self.

Other concerns of quality, testing, seem to be more important.

[.....]

24 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Tyre choice is a bit of a minor detail.  User can rectify them self.

Other concerns of quality, testing, seem to be more important.

Yup, but only if the euc is made to accomodate more than one option. We've seen in the past that VERY close fenders for one kind of tire, makes other options almost impossible. If designed to fit a few choices, I think the exact model that comes with the euc is kind of a moot point. I'd buy a different tire to fit my ride style in a heartbeat and not cry about it. Tires are easy. Connectors, screws, boards, torque, clearnce and others... not so much. Quality and testing first for sure!

Edited September 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[fbhb]

12 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Tyre choice is a bit of a minor detail.  User can rectify them self.

Other concerns of quality, testing, seem to be more important.

I would Not call it a minor detail seeing as the one wheel we have to steer, grip, accelerate and brake is dependant on a high performing tire, but take your point that it can be changed by the end user.

However, you do have to remember that Not everyone is able to get hands on to change tires if they are not mechanically minded and would prefer a good choice of rubber has already been made for them!

Edited September 2, 2021 by fbhb

[supercurio]

4 hours ago, fbhb said:

I totally agree and is part of the reason I recently suggested the CST 6004 as an option to @Jack King Song (at which point they had already sourced one to test), based on my own experience and also my recommendation to other riders to try the tire.

It has stellar performance on road and is also quite capable (although not to knobby standards obviously) off road where it tracks/grips very precisely due to the extra profile along the tires edge (in stark contrast to the similar looking, but much poorer performing Kenda K340A)!

It is not going to be easy to please everyone, as can already be seen by the wildly varying voting between here and Facebook (can't believe that the skinniest of the 3 tires leads the voting there currently, especially as the S20 will have a 100mm wide wheel well!) but the CST 6004 performs so well All round that it makes the most sense IMHO!

Thanks @Jack King Song for adding the CST C6004 to the options considered, I wonder if you heard about it before the comment I left on YouTube!

I didn't expect the C6004 to win any poll since it's a niche tire at the moment, hard to find and which can be ordered only with substantial shipping fees from Ebuy7 or Alibaba, but @fbhb has done a good job popularising his great find here 

I've been using the C6004 on my Sherman V2 (wide 60mm rim) for 1000km+ and it's been my favorite tire so far - all wheels & all tires considered.

Its most significant characteristics:

• No tram-lining
  It doesn't follow lines, cracks, divots rocks or inclines. The tire doesn't push the wheel on its side or alter the direction by itself.
  IMO a requirement for safe aggressive riding in city and performance off-road.
• Easy turning at low to medium speed
  Nimble wheel which can be turned and leaned without effort, reactive to rider's input. Even at Sherman weights. Fine and precise direction control. Pleasant for casual riding.
• Strong gyro effect gradually increasing with speed
  Starts to get noticeable at 45 km/h. The tire makes the wheel keep its lean angle and direction unless the rider changes them with intent.
  Needs a bit of practice to change direction at high speed (counter steering and weight transfer)
  Makes the wheel safe and relaxing at speed. Very comforting seated also.
• Consistent turning, unaffected by road conditions
  Contrary to some other tires I've tested, the tire keeps tracking its direction regardless of how irregular the surface is, on or off-road.
  It's most helpful in fast turns as the rider can remain confident, without need to correct for unexpected oscillations or direction changes.
• Natural leaning at all speeds
  The tire doesn't fight the rider to keep the wheel upright. The wheel flows and leans with the rider without effort in turns.
  In contrast with some tires which require the rider to hang off the side to get enough steering.
• Very good comfort
  Comfortable at all tire pressures. Running 27 PSI at the moment on Sherman (68kg rider) whereas I couldn't stand more than 22 PSI on Michelin City Pro.
  It becomes more supple at lower tire pressure as expected, with a gradual but moderate loss of steering precision due to its rigid construction.
  I don't understand how it can be so comfortable despite how hard the tire is out of the box.
• Perfect grip so far
  Can't complain here, no loss of traction in 1000km on asphalt or off-road, including high speed gravel and forest tracks. Performed well on wet and muddy off-road too.
  I can't comment on wet asphalt yet.
• Low bounce
  It seems that tire is made of a hard enough carcass and rubber to disperse energy instead of bouncing like a softer tire would.
• Good rim protection
  Thanks to its good comfort at higher pressures, thick rubber (for an EUC street tire), good height and hard carcass.
  Also comparing to Michelin City Pro 80/90-14 which was a disaster here.

Downsides so far:

• Doesn't align or center itself on the rim
  I had to massage the tire deflated, wheel on its side to get it centered correctly after an unsatisfactory experience on the initial setup. In comparison, the Michelin City Pro was 100% centered in all directions right away.
  Fortunately, the tire stayed aligned after that, problem entirely solved.
  Better than the K262 knobby which needed periodic re-seating.
  Factory install should take this into account.
• (not a problem for me): the tire provides too much gyro-like stability for effortless high-speed deep carve.

I'm sure the riding characteristics differ to some extent on wheels with a narrower rim and another weight distribution.

Supporting 100mm wide tires, the S20 should also use a wide rim: 40mm only might lead to the tire losing its expected shape or getting off the rim with very wide rubber.
Could you confirm @Jack King Song?

Edited September 2, 2021 by supercurio
typo

[fbhb]

Thanks @supercurio for the very concise bullet points describing what your personal account of the CST 6004 has been like fitted to the Sherman (could not have put it better myself!).

This will be of great help to riders who, due to the tire being challenging to come by, get a real incite into just how good it is, especially as it does work really well across multiple wheel brands/models/rim widths to my knowledge (4,000kms S18, 40mm wide rim in my case).

I feel sure that it could satisfy a broad cross section of potential S20 owners, on road and also to a certain degree off road!

Edited September 2, 2021 by fbhb

[PourUC]

47 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I didn't expect the C6004 to win any poll since it's a niche tire at the moment, 

I hadn't heard of the tyre. I voted for it because out of the 3 shown it was the most suitable for on-road riding. Whilst I off road a lot, as long as the ground is dry an on-road tyre is the best compromise.

That solid band all the way around the middle... with little bits of tread that will end up making contact if the dirt/mud is soft enough.

[supercurio]

25 minutes ago, PourUC said:

I hadn't heard of the tyre. I voted for it because out of the 3 shown it was the most suitable for on-road riding. Whilst I off road a lot, as long as the ground is dry an on-road tyre is the best compromise.

That solid band all the way around the middle... with little bits of tread that will end up making contact if the dirt/mud is soft enough.

I agree it's likely the best compromise for a factory tire for this reason.

What you highlighted explains the difference between the Facebook poll where only the tire references are listed (therefore favouring something similar sounding) vs the poll on these forums which includes pictures.

Then I'm sure that without picture, there has been plenty of confusion between K262 and K272.

Edited September 2, 2021 by supercurio

[Ádám Szitás]

11 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I agree it's likely the best compromise for a factory tire for this reason.

What you highlighted explains the difference between the Facebook poll where only the tire references are listed (therefore favouring something similar sounding) vs the poll on these forums which includes pictures.

Then I'm sure that without picture, there has been plenty of confusion between K262 and K272.

The same picture is there on facebook too, but I'm not surprised the K262 wins there, it's the most common tire people talk about. 

It's a good tire, way better than the old bycicle tires, but there are drawbacks of it mentioned above. I'm sure way more people use EUCs on road rather than offroad, so the C6004 seem to be the best option.

[supercurio]

10 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

The same picture is there on facebook too, but I'm not surprised the K262 wins there, it's the most common tire people talk about. 

It's a good tire, way better than the old bycicle tires, but there are drawbacks of it mentioned above. I'm sure way more people use EUCs on road rather than offroad, so the C6004 seem to be the best option.

I see, if you scroll down in FB comments you can see pictures there. Pretty hard to find.

The most voted tire on FB is the K272 however for reasons unknown (not the popular K262), and it's not possible to reliably guess the riding characteristics of a tire based on its external appearance.
I've never read someone's experience with it; it must be kind of noisy based on the thread pattern.

Edited September 2, 2021 by supercurio

[EMA]

that's what i wrote on fb :

k262 is the classic knobby, a beast offroad, nothing special on streets, less monouvrability and cornering radius, noisy, with a tilting behaviour that not all riders like

c6004 is solid, great protection for rim, amazing on streets and decent offroad, a bit heavy at 2.6kg

k272 (which i've not ridden) for sure is a good balance and a better option as default tire (remind me the cst c117 stock monster3 tire and the cst c113 that i like)

[Rollin-on-1]

I'd like to see a poll of how rider will actually use their S20.  Primarily off-road trails, ~75% off-road & ~ 25% street, 50/50 off-road & street, ~25% off-road & ~75 % street, ~100% street.  I think this type of poll would be very informative.

[Paul A]

Designing the S20 to make it easier to disassemble, extracting the wheel might be another approach.

Make future tyre/tube repairs/replacements less of a hassle.

[conecones]

An off-road wheel deserves an off-road tire! My vote goes to K262. Why would anyone spec 5” suspension and then slap a street tire on it…keep this wheel off-road focused! Plenty of street specific wheels to choose from…

[RockyTop]

3 minutes ago, conecones said:

An off-road wheel deserves an off-road tire! My vote goes to K262. Why would anyone spec 5” suspension and then slap a street tire on it…keep this wheel off-road focused! Plenty of street specific wheels to choose from…

Yeah!!!…….. I Definitely couldn’t say it better myself  

[.....]

 I would surmise that the bulk of buyers are road riders with a tiny bit of 'off-road'.  Whatever KS feels is the bulk of their riders, is what this wheel should cater too. Sell to the masses but alow it upgradeable for the fringes.

Edited September 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[RockyTop]

12 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 I would surmise that the bulk of buyers are road riders with a tiny bit of 'off-road'.  Whatever KS feels is the bulk of their riders, is what this wheel should cater too. Sell to the masses but alow it upgradeable for the fringes.

Why did you have to go and make scene? 
It reminds me of the three US car companies. Chevy gets you excited about a Corvette and sell you a Camaro. Ford says this is the Mustang you will like it. And Chrysler asks you what you want and gives it to you. The problem is no matter how much you may want a 6 wheel drive mini truck with a 440 Hemi that goes 0-60 in 3.4 seconds. You would never actually buy one. 
My take is that the knobby tire works just fine for me on the pavement. The street tire is almost useless on wet grass. 

[Paul A]

Maybe data from EUC world tour would be more objective and less subjective.

[Tasku]

I hope they go for hybrid tyre as stock.

Street and pure off-road tyres have problems. Street does not hold that well outside paved road and knobby might be wrong to start practicing with. Offroad knobby tyre has noice and some control issues, so there is that. 

A hybrid  tyre between these 2 is obvious choice for stock tyre. Best of both worlds. Just my 2 cents. 

[Paul A]

With specs of:

126V, 70kph top speed, large 20" wheel, approx 200km range,

seems more suited to road.

 

Riders planning on using as predominantly off road might find S18 more than adequate and cheaper.

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, conecones said:

Why would anyone spec 5” suspension and then slap a street tire on it

That 5" suspension might actually cope with some of the pot holes on the road over here. Personally I'd prefer a street tyre as I rarely, if ever, go off road.

[meepmeepmayer]

55 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 I would surmise that the bulk of buyers are road riders with a tiny bit of 'off-road'.  Whatever KS feels is the bulk of their riders, is what this wheel should cater too. Sell to the masses but alow it upgradeable for the fringes.

The S20 is the first wheel with serious clearance for all potential tires. No few mm like so many other wheels!

4 minutes ago, Paul A said:

approx 200km range

We all know that's not happening

[RockyTop]

2 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Riders planning on using as predominantly off road might find S18 more than adequate and cheaper.

Not enough power for me. 5 minutes of action and the batteries are sagging. Good point though. My concern is that once we get enough power, is it going to be too heavy? I keep an eye on the high performers like Mike Leahy. What will it take for him to switch to a suspension wheel?