EMA Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 6 hours ago, Nick McCutcheon said: Mickey's beeps at 39 are definitely better than the MSP HT, at least for me (I hit beeps at 34-35) weird, it shoud beep at 38mph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eve Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) On 10/20/2020 at 7:23 AM, gon2fast said: I hope Begode/Gotway updates the firmware on production units to be able to compete with Veteran top speed. Otherwise their $3400 experiment is going to lose them some customers (IMHO). a little better than the HT MSP, I thought that was the role of the RS HS, lol. They wont, EX is a torque wheel. Not a speed wheel. There might be a future Speed version though. Edited October 23, 2020 by eve 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post macrhino Posted October 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 24, 2020 On 9/14/2020 at 12:45 AM, erk1024 said: Totally agree. The thing is, I'm a little hesitant about the V11 motor hauling my gravity challenged 120kg self. Rather have a 100V Gotway motor, and the new 3500w hollow core motor could be a beast. Won't know till we get to try it out I guess. Limited options for suspension wheels right now. MyV11 has been carrying my 126kg butt around for quite a while. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post meepmeepmayer Posted October 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) Pictures and detailed disassembly of the EX. As always from the fantastic guys at @EcoDrift. Pictures: Russian Original - English (Bing Translator) Disassembly (suspension!): Russian Original - English (Bing Translator) Build quality is awful, I think worse than RS. Brittle 3D-printed parts. 1st batch mess. Eww Can't fault Gotway for being innovative, but I wish they would do it less amateurish. There's lots of details about the suspension to be seen! Motor looks awesome, with 40mm wide magnets! Motor plus suspension alone weigh 20kg! (He mentions they got a "HT version of the EX". Is there a HS version? Or does he just call wide magnets HT?) (Can someone explain what the heatsink next to the board is for? Is it connected to the board's backing plate?) Edited October 24, 2020 by meepmeepmayer 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erk1024 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 4 hours ago, macrhino said: MyV11 has been carrying my 126kg butt around for quite a while. Thanks for the info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtlasP Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Pictures and detailed disassembly of the EX. As always from the fantastic guys at @EcoDrift. Pictures: Russian Original - English (Bing Translator) Disassembly (suspension!): Russian Original - English (Bing Translator) ROFL from beginning of translated article: "First the weight. 39kg. No words, emotions alone." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 53 minutes ago, AtlasP said: ROFL from beginning of translated article: "First the weight. 39kg. No words, emotions alone." My favorite quote is right at the start of the second article: "I really do not want to disassemble Begode EX, but it is necessary." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post houseofjob Posted October 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) On 10/23/2020 at 10:25 AM, eve said: They wont, EX is a torque wheel. Not a speed wheel. Not a very good torque wheel at that. Just came back from the NYC EX demo, which I wasn't originally planning on going to, but went along with @chulander and the Queens crew to eat and ride after. Out of my 5 years of EUC-ing, the EX is the worst Gotway I have ever ridden on, and I'm talking primarily the overall ride feel of the unit more than the suspension part. Much of the reaction from the other demo riders were similar to mine, or lukewarm at best. Even on soft mode, the EX was super stiff, which is fine, not my taste. But if it's gonna be all hard modes, the wheel should at least have good acceleration and braking, ala MSP etc., but the EX feels like you're trying to move a huge pickup truck that doesn't have enough motor power for accel (think flooring it but stuck on gear 1 or 2), nor has strong enough brakes to stop in time; everything on that wheel is sluggish, you have to anticipate things way in advance compared to every other wheel on the market. The Shermona isn't even that far off in weight from the EX, and accel/braking is night and day from the EX, smokes the EX in both categories. If you didn't tell me the EX sported a new "3500W" motor I would have never been able to tell it was any different from Gotway's 2-2.5kW existing motors, and a much worse firmware'd one at that. Note that we are not mountain climbers here in flatland NYC, but even the reported king of hill climbing MSP Torque accelerates better on flats than the EX. I am seriously hoping the suckiness of the EX is not indicative of how Gotway is programming the feel of the 24 Pro, because if that's the case, I think my wheel buying might be done for the year. Edited October 25, 2020 by houseofjob 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Wheel Man Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 According 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: Not a very good torque wheel at that. Just came back from the NYC EX demo, which I wasn't originally planning on going to, but went along with @chulander and the Queens crew to eat and ride after. Out of my 5 years of EUC-ing, the EX is the worst Gotway I have ever ridden on, and I'm talking primarily the overall ride feel of the unit more than the suspension part. Much of the reaction from the other demo riders were similar to mine, or lukewarm at best. Even on soft mode, the EX was super stiff, which is fine, not my taste. But if it's gonna be all hard modes, the wheel should at least have good acceleration and braking, ala MSP etc., but the EX feels like you're trying to move a huge pickup truck that doesn't have enough motor power for accel (think flooring it but stuck on gear 1 or 2), nor has strong enough brakes to stop in time; everything on that wheel is sluggish, you have to anticipate things way in advance compared to every other wheel on the market. The Shermona isn't even that far off in weight from the EX, and accel/braking is night and day from the EX, smokes the EX in both categories. If you didn't tell me the EX sported a new "3500W" motor I would have never been able to tell it was any different from Gotway's 2-2.5kW existing motors, and a much worse firmware'd one at that. Note that we are not mountain climbers here in flatland NYC, but even the reported king of hill climbing MSP Torque accelerates better on flats than the EX. I am seriously hoping the suckiness of the EX is not indicative of how Gotway is programming the feel of the 24 Pro, because if that's the case, I think my wheel buying might be done for the year. to this video, the EX made it up a hill FASTER than the MSP....wouldn't this make the EX one of the highest torque wheels in existence, if it can beat even the MSP in torque/hill climbing? If it's slower than other wheels (in acceleration or up hills) I'd LOVE to see something to back that up or prove it....but from the very limited evidence I've seen so far, nothing has beaten the EX yet (in torque) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post houseofjob Posted October 25, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, One Wheel Man said: According to this video, the EX made it up a hill FASTER than the MSP....wouldn't this make the EX one of the highest torque wheels in existence, if it can beat even the MSP in torque/hill climbing? If it's slower than other wheels (in acceleration or up hills) I'd LOVE to see something to back that up or prove it....but from the very limited evidence I've seen so far, nothing has beaten the EX yet (in torque) This video is hardly a scientific race, I don't see anywhere where they state battery level and modes used, and actual start line to finish, stopwatch synched footage (was anyone measuring directly at the start line, not just the finish line? I can't even see the guy who stops the stopwatch on camera. And where is the side-by-side side-view footage to compare the lean angles used on both wheels?). And I dunno what other EX reviews you are referring to. This was just my impressions, echoed by many of the seasoned NYC riders who are predominantly MSX/MSP Speed riders. Consensus was the EX feels super sluggish across modes. I say this as nothing but a rider, no motivation to get you to click my EX review video, as I don't have one! You don't want to believe all this? Then don't! And again, you're not gonna get a true hills opinion from anyone in NYC, we simply don't have them compared to an SF or LA. Edited October 25, 2020 by houseofjob 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMA Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 8 hours ago, houseofjob said: Even on soft mode, the EX was super stiff, which is fine, not my taste. But if it's gonna be all hard modes i've not ridden EX yet, but i find this behaviour related to the torque motor, you know soft mode on a torque MSP is way different from the other gw wheels, a bit stiffer [ imho ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted October 25, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2020 6 hours ago, One Wheel Man said: According to this video, the EX made it up a hill FASTER than the MSP.... Well, the EX didn’t make it up the hill, the rider did. Acceleration tests on self balancing vehicles do not work like they do with cars. You can’t “floor it” and achieve the best acceleration the vehicle is capable of. Acceleration on an EUC depends on how far the rider is comfortable pushing the wheel. The limit of the wheel’s acceleration has been reached only once the rider overleans the wheel. Everything before that is just about how the wheel feels to the rider. You can’t compare accelerations based on that. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, mrelwood said: Well, the EX didn’t make it up the hill, the rider did. Acceleration tests on self balancing vehicles do not work like they do with cars. You can’t “floor it” and achieve the best acceleration the vehicle is capable of. Acceleration on an EUC depends on how far the rider is comfortable pushing the wheel. The limit of the wheel’s acceleration has been reached only once the rider overleans the wheel. Everything before that is just about how the wheel feels to the rider. You can’t compare accelerations based on that. Yup, this too, well said. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Wheel Man Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Quote 18 hours ago, houseofjob said: This video is hardly a scientific race, I don't see anywhere where they state battery level and modes used, and actual start line to finish, stopwatch synched footage (was anyone measuring directly at the start line, not just the finish line? I can't even see the guy who stops the stopwatch on camera. And where is the side-by-side side-view footage to compare the lean angles used on both wheels?). And I dunno what other EX reviews you are referring to. This was just my impressions, echoed by many of the seasoned NYC riders who are predominantly MSX/MSP Speed riders. Consensus was the EX feels super sluggish across modes. I say this as nothing but a rider, no motivation to get you to click my EX review video, as I don't have one! You don't want to believe all this? Then don't! And again, you're not gonna get a true hills opinion from anyone in NYC, we simply don't have them compared to an SF or LA. It's not that I "don't believe it" but with all of those riders making claims, have any of them recorded video of this behavior and posted it? It's very difficult to find any videos of the wheel in general, and I'll take a claim with video evidence over a claim without it. Also, given that the wheel is supposed to be more powerful than others before it, yet it has a lower top speed than the fastest wheels, I'd imagine it would have decent torque, and therefore acceleration and hill climbing abilities. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for the wheel to somehow be more powerful and yet be slower and have worse torque....since power=torque*rpm. I'd really like someone to show a video of the EX being compared in an objective test next to other high end wheels (MSP, RS, Sherman, etc) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shellac Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 The Ex seems like it has all the necessary hardware to be a powerful high torque wheel, so hopefully the issues noted can be fixed with a firmware update. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shield Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 41 minutes ago, shellac said: The Ex seems like it has all the necessary hardware to be a powerful high torque wheel, so hopefully the issues noted can be fixed with a firmware update. I agree and it does seem like Gotway is tweaking things. When I contacted eWheels about the EX and asked for a shipping ETA this is what they had to say... "Joe, We don't have a definitive date on the EX (Gotway is making some last-minute adjustments to the Wheel before full production). As soon as we know, it will be up on the site for *official* preorder." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post houseofjob Posted October 26, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, One Wheel Man said: It's not that I "don't believe it" but with all of those riders making claims, have any of them recorded video of this behavior and posted it? It's very difficult to find any videos of the wheel in general, and I'll take a claim with video evidence over a claim without it. Also, given that the wheel is supposed to be more powerful than others before it, yet it has a lower top speed than the fastest wheels, I'd imagine it would have decent torque, and therefore acceleration and hill climbing abilities. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for the wheel to somehow be more powerful and yet be slower and have worse torque....since power=torque*rpm. I'd really like someone to show a video of the EX being compared in an objective test next to other high end wheels (MSP, RS, Sherman, etc) First, "torque" is a nebulous term that for the EUC world, as @mrelwood so adeptly stated, is super dependent on the riders' lean, and as said before, to keep things consistent, they would have to be superman leaning to the edge of cutout, which no one, not certainly me at my age, is willing to do. Thus, if you re-read what I wrote, I never use the term "torque", I only use acceleration. By design. You ask for a true video test, but I can tell you, watching all these supposed "tests" over 5+ years of EUC-ing, none of them are done scientifically well and unbiased enough, truly objective, to demonstrate and quantify apples to apples power numbers for comparison, esp if the input is a rider who is applying arbitrary force each time. And did I say there was no power to the EX? Nope. There is no wheel coming out on today's market that is as weak as the EUCs of 5+ years ago. They all can do the job well enough, it's just a matter of to what degree and how they compare relatively to the competition / market v price IMHO Thus, again, I repeat, if you give me the MSP and the EX, and tell me they were using the same motor, I would believe you. In NYC, really trying to punch with all my weight force the EX at speed and pump/slam the brake in traffic, all I felt was everything was super slow/sluggish to respond, as I said before. The MSP, when I did the same actions, was not to this degree of sluggishness. It has been stated over and over in these forums that motor power spec numbers is an approximation of the motor's power, not a standardized and regulated spec. There are soooo many factors to motor power: from different power signatures vs different current draw; vs different speeds, high and low; firmware tuning to address overall handling. EUC companies are notorious for rounding up specs and overstating numbers like power and battery for marketing hype, so all this is a rough estimation, not an exact math written in stone. There is no national Chinese regulatory agency to standardize EUC/motor specs. Now, was I surprised that the supposed "3500W" nom EX motor had little difference in power feel compared to the "2500W" nom MPS motor? You best believe it. But taking a minute to think back on everything I stated above regarding EUC history regarding such specs, I'm less shocked. And you keep quoting hills, and I keep telling you, I have no answers for you on hills, we do not have proper hills in NYC! Who knows, maybe this EX does amazing uphill, but on flats, which is NYC's specialty, I can say it performs poorly. Edited October 26, 2020 by houseofjob 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post houseofjob Posted October 26, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, shellac said: The Ex seems like it has all the necessary hardware to be a powerful high torque wheel, so hopefully the issues noted can be fixed with a firmware update. 35 minutes ago, Shield said: I agree and it does seem like Gotway is tweaking things. When I contacted eWheels about the EX and asked for a shipping ETA this is what they had to say... "Joe, We don't have a definitive date on the EX (Gotway is making some last-minute adjustments to the Wheel before full production). As soon as we know, it will be up on the site for *official* preorder." FWIW, I believe Gotway has already missed 2 estimated release dates for the EX, plus the motor manufacture for the EX hollow bore was switched to QJ (vs the RS using Gotway's old faithful partner in HB for the RS's hollow bore motor), so outside looking in, it does seem like they are having issues with this new motor FW, and IMHO, it showed in the demo. And curiously, per the ecodrift teardown, the EX hollow bore uses 40mm magnets for the outer rotor & 33mm mags for the inner stator (windings are apparently more numerous, which falls in line with high torque); vs the MSP, which uses 38mm mags for the outer rotor & 30mm mags for the inner stator. Also, the EX and the 24Pro are the only Gotway new wheel models I can remember not releasing shortly after announcement. Also, if you look at the timeline, the ex-Gotway team members that jumped ship for Veteran did so in the middle of the would-be development of these 2 new wheels. Edited October 26, 2020 by houseofjob 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, EMA said: i've not ridden EX yet, but i find this behaviour related to the torque motor, you know soft mode on a torque MSP is way different from the other gw wheels, a bit stiffer [ imho ] I tried/rode now both EX and MSP first run FW wheels, both on soft, and yes, they feel basically like hard modes. But FWIW, they changed the latest MSP FW to be spongier than the original MSP FW, but unfortunately I only felt it on hard mode on that riders' MSP. Edited October 26, 2020 by houseofjob 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post AtlasP Posted October 26, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) Agree with houseofjob, but just one very important fact to add--the EX is literally 50% heavier than the MSP (like one whole MSP with half of a second MSP glued to the side of it). So the EX's motor could even be 'somewhat' more powerful than the MSP motor, but the point is it's nowhere near 50% more powerful/enough to make up for the massive weight difference. Edited October 26, 2020 by AtlasP 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsiang Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 26 minutes ago, AtlasP said: Agree with houseofjob, but just one very important fact to add--the EX is literally over 50% heavier than the MSP (like one whole MSP with half of a second MSP glued to the side of it). So the EX's motor could even be 'somewhat' more powerful than the MSP motor, but the point is it's nowhere near 50% more powerful/enough to make up for the massive weight difference. also that at 40lbs, the motor plus wheel assembly on the EX is nearly the weight of the entire MSP (52lbs)!! also that motor weight is further out from its centroid due to its hollow core. so it'll take even more power to spin up this wheel. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post erk1024 Posted October 26, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, AtlasP said: So the EX's motor could even be 'somewhat' more powerful than the MSP motor, but the point is it's nowhere near 50% more powerful/enough to make up for the massive weight difference. You have to factor in the rider's weight. The total weight of a 200 pound person on a 86 pound wheel is not 50% heaver than the total weight of a 200 pound person on a 50 pound wheel. So a heavier, more powerful motor should be a win. Of course, you have to also consider the rotational inertia of the larger motor. It seems like if the motor is actually as powerful as it's claimed to be (a big 'IF'), then adjustments to software / control-board could possibly fix what @houseofjob is feeling. Hard to say. And the V11 seems to do fine with a hollow core motor. Whenever you make a big change, there are bound to be teething issues. And Gotway is not amazing at testing products beforehand. So we have to see how this develops. Edited October 26, 2020 by erk1024 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted October 26, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2020 19 hours ago, AtlasP said: it's nowhere near 50% more powerful/enough to make up for the massive weight difference. I’m not sure if it makes much difference. Simplifying the acceleration event: 1) Rider leans forward. 2) Wheel tries to catch him. If the wheel A doesn’t have enough power to catch the lean as quickly as the wheel B, the rider would keep falling forward on the wheel A, and the pedals would feel soft. Based on @houseofjob‘s description, this is not at all what happened. He said the EX feels “sluggish”, not “underpowered”. With the huge amount of experience he has, I’m confident that he can easily tell the difference much better than most people can even understand the difference. Btw, the nerd heavy topic “What determines wheel zippyness” goes through the physics of this exact topic. 18 hours ago, Hsiang said: so it'll take even more power to spin up this wheel. Lift up any EUC with two hands, from the handle and the pedal, and tilt it violently forward. The tire spins to maximum speed in an instant. Waaay faster than any acceleration any human can perform on an EUC. This shows that the mass of the motor doesn’t make a noticeable difference when riding. Despite the EX motor having the most mass out where other 18” wheels only have spokes. Again, if it would matter, the wheel wouldn’t feel sluggish, it would feel underpowered. One thing that can make a noticeable difference though is the weight distribution. The EX is a very tall wheel, and my guess is it has a lot more weight high above the axle than below. What that mass does is pull the wheel backwards while accelerating, fighting against the rider’s forward lean. It’s like a small guy standing at the back of the pedals while you try to accelerate. No matter how many gigawatts of power the wheel has, if the rider’s acceleration input doesn’t reach the wheel unobstructed, the wheel will surely feel sluggish. The V11 is an interesting wheel to handle by lifting it up and moving it about on the table. It has practically all its mass at the very centre of the wheel. I don’t think it feels particularly sluggish while accelerating, compared to other 18x3” EUCs. Coincidence? I don’t think so. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Geometry, weight distribution, and firmware matter. Not motor specs like weight or (mostly meaningless) power rating. To me it sounds like Gotway might make some firmware revisions. I can't see a reason why the EX has to be sluggish per se. The Sherman has a similar battery distribution and nobody complains about it being sluggish. Maybe it just has bad geometry, or the suspension somehow influences that negatively? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gon2fast Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: To me it sounds like Gotway might make some firmware revisions. I can't see a reason why the EX has to be sluggish per se. The Sherman has a similar battery distribution and nobody complains about it being sluggish. I would hope, but usually they repackage the firmware updates as an entirely new model. Hopefully consumers will not buy into that nonsense now that the other manufacturers are upping there performance stats and closing the gap. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.