King Song S18 Discussion

[EUChristian]

16 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

It's not during normal ride that the beginner would experience something, but back in the day all wheels wouldnt cut off almost until it was laid down. This meant the wheel would tumble, injuring the rider and the wheel. I understand we've now gone into new territory where EUCs are stepping into offroad and skate park like environments but changes must be added at caution. I'm thoroughly thinking about it, and in fact the the team has been thinking about it deeply in the past few weeks. 

Any way you can firmware update to 35MPH above a certain battery percentage sir?  Please consider this. The motor is clearly powerful enough to handle the extra speed no problem. 
 

This. Would. Be. Huge. 

[Scottie888]

16 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

Any way you can firmware update to 35MPH above a certain battery percentage sir?  Please consider this. The motor is clearly powerful enough to handle the extra speed no problem. 
 

This. Would. Be. Huge. 

Absolutely! It would be great & likely generate a lot of goodwill amongst Kingsong fans & would be fans if the company listens to its customers. Afterall, we're not just customers but infact volunteer guinea pigs by pre-ordering your new unproven products. It would be soooo easy to say lets wait til all the bugs are worked out 1st.

So @Jack King Song please listen to your customers (infact I'm a 1st time Kingsong buyer) so that we can help you build a great product to not only keep your present customer base happy but also bring in a new generation of Kingsong fans.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Scottie888

[EUChristian]

14 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

Absolutely! It would be great & likely generate a lot of goodwill amongst Kingsong fans & would be fans if the company listens to its customers. Afterall, we're not just customers but infact volunteer guinea pigs by pre-ordering your new unproven products. It would be soooo easy to say lets wait til all the bugs are worked out 1st.

So @Jack King Song please listen to your customers (infact I'm a 1st time Kingsong buyer) so that we can help you build a great product to not only keep your present customer base happy but also bring in a new generation of Kingsong fans.

I couldn’t agree more!  There is market share to be had with this move. This will attract the Gotway rider (except for the extreme ones) and INMOTION already took the leap. No reason why we can’t have the same and still keep safety a priority!  Just limit it at 75% battery if worried or 60% battery (my best case scenario) and advertise this going forward. 4mph is all I’m asking for. 
 

if we can’t have the battery...let’s at least get the speed. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by EUChristian

[onizukagto]

27 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

I couldn’t agree more!  There is market share to be had with this move. This will attract the Gotway rider (except for the extreme ones) and INMOTION already took the leap. No reason why we can’t have the same and still keep safety a priority!  Just limit it at 75% battery if worried or 60% battery (my best case scenario) and advertise this going forward. 4mph is all I’m asking for. 
 

if we can’t have the battery...let’s at least get the speed. 

Inmotion is killing it with customer interaction and rapid response to communication and changes to it's latest wheel.

If kingsong wants to keep it's customers, it better step up it's game and give what it's riders want. Just my 2 pence worth.
 

[AtlasP]

2 hours ago, EUChristian said:

if we can’t have the battery...let’s at least get the speed. 

These things are related--battery capacity and speed. Trying to go over 30mph on just 3 packs in parallel sounds like a terrible idea. Indeed there are no wheels over 31 mph with less than 4 packs.

Furthermore we've seen King Song's willingness to cut corners/rush to market/etc just to try to try to say they're matching the competition--if they thought the S18 could sustain equivalent speeds to the V11 they would have certainly announced/done it by now. Apparently they know they can't do so safely on their current hardware.

Edited August 4, 2020 by AtlasP

[Rywokast]

13 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

These things are related--battery capacity and speed. Trying to go over 30mph on just 3 packs in parallel sounds like a terrible idea. Indeed there are no wheels over 31 mph with less than 4 packs.

Furthermore we've seen King Song's willingness to cut corners/rush to market/etc just to try to try to say they're meeting the competition--if they thought the S18 could sustain equivalent speeds to the V11 they would have certainly announced/done it by now. Apparently they know they can't do so safely on their current hardware.

agreed, it will never happen.. they made that mistake once already with the 16X

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, eve said:

 The Topic was suspension not "Best Off-Road EUC."

Really? Your comment quoted @UniVehje’s post saying “clearly better off-roader because of more complicated suspension makes me wonder...”.

Obviously a S18 style suspension can be made to work better than a V11 style suspension. That has been clear from the start. But isn’t comparing just a single element of a vehicle a bit pointless? It’s not like we can install the S18 suspension on any other wheel.

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

Agreed. Would you also agree suspension is the top “part” that would contribute the most to making a good off roader?

No.

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

And that no wheel without suspension can complete with a comparable wheel with one when off road use is the utility?

Depending on what exactly you mean by “comparable”.

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

 In other words a Sherman with suspension vs one without suspension...Which would be better off road?

Of course the suspension plays a big part, and all else being equal the one with a well done suspension is better on all accounts. But that’s not what you were asking above. Change the tire to a slick road tire on the suspension Sherman, and it has no place competing in any off-road situation.

[gon2fast]

Early S18 owners - are you happy with your purchase and is it living up to your expectations? 

 

[UniVehje]

8 hours ago, eve said:

I dont think you understand how suspension works and what is its purpose. 

I do actually understand it pretty well and that's why I wrote what I wrote. 

8 hours ago, eve said:

We have 2: One where only the wheel moves and one where everything but the saddle moves. 

One wheel or a whole 25kg of EUC?

You might be underestimating the amount of unsprung weight on the S18. Both of these wheels have a lot of it compared to bicycles. The S18 has the same motor as the 16X, which is 10.4 kg, add bigger tire and rim plus pedal hangers and some suspension parts and you are at 12-14 kg, just more than half of the total weight of the wheel. The batteries are really not that heavy compared to the motor. 

We are all aware of the theory behind less unsprung mass being generally better. Nobody is arguing against that. But it's also true that less mass is better because it accelerates quicker, thus returning to the ground faster. This effect is more pronounced at higher speeds. The slower you go the less it matters. And in our application, depending on the trail of course, we usually ride at 15-30 km/h. Only on very fast trail the effect would be noticeable. 

8 hours ago, eve said:

Purpose of suspension is to makes that no matter what elevation your vehicle gets from hitting a big bump your tyre stays in contact with the ground.

Yes, you are correct. Although there are other benefits as well. But at our speeds the benefit from this is so minuscule that a grippy tire is much more important. If the added grip from less unsprung mass is so important for you, you should first look at the tire. You can add much more grip changing the tire than reducing the mass.  

8 hours ago, eve said:

And it doesnt take a genius to know what moves faster/better? 

It doesn't take a genius but it takes some experience to know what is needed for off-road riding. 

7 hours ago, eve said:

 The Topic was suspension not "Best Off-Road EUC."

The topic has been very much about the best off-road EUC. The suspension per se is of course better on the S18 but it doesn't make sense to compare it as a separate part. That was the point with my two pictures. There's a thing called law of diminishing return. The benefits from the suspension system cannot be utilised without all the other parts supporting it, mainly the tire. And off-roading is a very wide term. There are so many different trails, paths, surfaces etc. The S18 suspension benefits really matter only on very specific types of trails. But when the ground is wet or loose and you have to climb a difficult and steep path, the unsprung mass just doesn't matter. 

6 hours ago, EUChristian said:

In other words a Sherman with suspension vs one without suspension...Which would be better off road?

Depends on the type of trail and ground. But in general it's pretty clear that, everything else being equal, the suspension would have very few negatives and many positive effects. But a more interesting comparison would be Sherman with street tire and suspension vs. Sherman with knobby tire and no suspension. This comparison is more difficult and would depend heavily on the trail. On wet ground the knobby would win and on a fast and grippy and bumpy track the suspended street tire would win. 

You could also compare the V11 and S18 as if they didn't have suspension but everything else remains. For me it would be a clear choice, I would take a non-suspended V11 on any track over a non-suspended S18 (based on just looking at reviews). Adding a suspension to one of them would make it a clear winner. And when both have the suspension, the type of suspension will matter only if it becomes the bottle neck. Some trails require quicker acting suspension and vast majority of tracks will benefit more from a grippier tire. 

[mrelwood]

I agree 110% with @UniVehje’s every single word, and even the spaces between! That is experience taking right there.

Edited August 4, 2020 by mrelwood

[eve]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Obviously a S18 style suspension can be made to work better than a V11 style suspension. That has been clear from the start. But isn’t comparing just a single element of a vehicle a bit pointless? It’s not like we can install the S18 suspension on any other wheel.

What point are you trying to prove here? 

2 hours ago, UniVehje said:

You might be underestimating the amount of unsprung weight on the S18. Both of these wheels have a lot of it compared to bicycles. The S18 has the same motor as the 16X, which is 10.4 kg, add bigger tire and rim plus pedal hangers and some suspension parts and you are at 12-14 kg, just more than half of the total weight of the wheel. The batteries are really not that heavy compared to the motor. 

So you say the difference is negligible because its its like 12kg vs 20kg?

[Rehab1]

10 hours ago, RockyTop said:

The more I ride the S18, the more I am impressed. 

 

3 hours ago, gon2fast said:

Early S18 owners - are you happy with your purchase and is it living up to your expectations? 

 

Extremely happy! Granted I have not had the opportunity to ride the V11.

When I purchased the S18 my expectations were:

1) Excellent off road wheel with a shock system offering both compression and rebound adjustments. 

2) Ability to swap out the shock in the future as suspension R&D is ongoing. 

 3) Medium range is fine as my legs won’t tolerate riding over 30+ miles traversing bumpy terrain.

4) Awesome state-of-the-art appearance with an exoskeletal body that reveals the complex suspension system. 

All of my expectations have been met. 

[mrelwood]

26 minutes ago, eve said:

What point are you trying to prove here?

Dude, what’s your problem? You jump around ridiculing other people’s comments, and when you’re shown that your flamey sting was actually wrong, you duck and jump to the next victim. There’s nothing constructive, informative, supportive, questioning or funny about posts like that. Why post at all then?

26 minutes ago, eve said:

So you say the difference is negligible because its its like 12kg vs 20kg?

Read again. He said “you might be underestimating”. It has a different meaning than “negligible”.

[jimjam.nyc]

I think asking this wheel to be brought up to 35mph is a dangerous game with the battery config it has.. I guess nobody remembers the 16x in the beginning.. BTW i have a 16x,  love it, and even decided it was good enough to wait out the first round of suspension wheels.. So this is not a rip on KS or any brand. 

The s18 was advertised as 31mph.. IF you wanted faster, i think you should have opted for a different wheel.. Waiting for it to release, see a wheel in the same category with more battery and a bit faster output, then start asking the company to match it.. It kind of an unfair request. 

The motor can surely handle it, I am sure the battery can.. but you will lose the headroom to deal with unexpected situations. To me an added 4mph for 15% of an already weak battery is not worth that risk. You will likely get less than 1hr riding time at 35mph, and then less range and time to enjoy the wheel as a whole. 

Besides i dont understand the disappointment with the speed of the s18.. It is not like they advertised faster and released it at lower speeds..  The speed spec is the one thing about this wheel that was 100% known from the start.. Its literally the only spec that never changed for the s18. 

 

 

[eve]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

when you’re shown

The problem is you didnt. You just continued on ignoring what i just said.

Im not ridiculing anyone. 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Read again. He said “you might be underestimating”. It has a different meaning than “negligible”.

So he said what i said but he said it like i didnt say it. Interesting. 

[Feynman]

Who cares about any of that ^^^.   My S18 ARRIVES TODAY!!!!!

[HerotheCat]

3 minutes ago, Feynman said:

Who cares about any of that ^^^.   My S18 ARRIVES TODAY!!!!!

As does mine. I'm like a kid on Christmas Eve!!!

[RockyTop]

30 minutes ago, HerotheCat said:

As does mine. I'm like a kid on Christmas Eve!!!

After Christmas was delayed a week. 

Just remember that getting the suspension dialed in is a process. The wheel has many adjustments that take time to adjust ( suspension and pedal hight) along with the regular things like tire pressure and foot position. It took me several days to get mine the way I like it. Also it does better with the big bumps than the smaller ones. 
 

[HerotheCat]

11 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

After Christmas was delayed a week. 

Just remember that getting the suspension dialed in is a process. The wheel has many adjustments that take time to adjust ( suspension and pedal hight) along with the regular things like tire pressure and foot position. It took me several days to get mine the way I like it. Also it does better with the big bumps than the smaller ones. 
 

You mean three weeks! A Tuesday delivery works well for a week-end ride. 

[B08AH]

On 8/3/2020 at 5:33 PM, iode said:

V11 the spiritual successor to the Z10

As Marty said in his first look, it is rather a cheap ripoff, than spiritual successor.

[RockyTop]

1 hour ago, HerotheCat said:

You mean three weeks! A Tuesday delivery works well for a week-end ride. 

The first two weeks were normal delay for a first addition wheel. I think early spring translates to end of summer in Chinese. 

[B08AH]

custom vinyl film makes it look so cool

 

[ColoradoQuattro]

11 hours ago, gon2fast said:

Early S18 owners - are you happy with your purchase and is it living up to your expectations? 

 

I've been super happy with mine, but have nothing to compare it to.  I picked it over the V11 on the basis of the suspension design, and the fact that I will never ride this thing at 30mph.  For what I'm doing with it, it's been awesome.  Very nimble, and I'm starting to get the "skiing" feel that I was hoping for while riding it in and out of pot holes, drainage ruts, over rocks, etc.  I think I've got it up to the point where I can take some video to post.  Possible teaser for tomorrow or maybe later in the week.   

 

4 hours ago, Feynman said:

Who cares about any of that ^^^.   My S18 ARRIVES TODAY!!!!!

Congrats!  That is awesome!  What's your first mission?

[dsd317]

4 hours ago, Feynman said:

Who cares about any of that ^^^.   My S18 ARRIVES TODAY!!!!!

Nice!  Do you have any nice trails to test this beast out?

I'm in Sugar Land, and if all goes well, I should receive mine mid-end of August (hopefully sooner).  I'll be testing this at bike trails in my area.  Can't wait!

[iode]

5 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I think asking this wheel to be brought up to 35mph is a dangerous game with the battery config it has.. I guess nobody remembers the 16x in the beginning.. BTW i have a 16x,  love it, and even decided it was good enough to wait out the first round of suspension wheels.. So this is not a rip on KS or any brand. 

The s18 was advertised as 31mph.. IF you wanted faster, i think you should have opted for a different wheel.. Waiting for it to release, see a wheel in the same category with more battery and a bit faster output, then start asking the company to match it.. It kind of an unfair request. 

The motor can surely handle it, I am sure the battery can.. but you will lose the headroom to deal with unexpected situations. To me an added 4mph for 15% of an already weak battery is not worth that risk. You will likely get less than 1hr riding time at 35mph, and then less range and time to enjoy the wheel as a whole. 

Besides i dont understand the disappointment with the speed of the s18.. It is not like they advertised faster and released it at lower speeds..  The speed spec is the one thing about this wheel that was 100% known from the start.. Its literally the only spec that never changed for the s18. 

 

100% this. Folks here think it's "just a measly 5 mph" without understanding that the S18 is literally missing an entire parallel (3p vs 4p) of battery for voltage redundancy, and therefore top speed margin. Not to mention if they do give into whimsical customer demands, they could potentially do irreparable harm to their brand when someone inevitably cuts out and smashes their face in. I'm sure the owners and engineers are KingSong don't want their brand associated with cutouts and grisly morbid injuries (we already have Gotway for this heh).

We've known the top advertised speed for months and months now; we put our deposits where our mouths were, why would anyone complain now?

Edited August 4, 2020 by iode