King Song S18 Discussion

[Rehab1]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Its all moot to me, as mine sold already.

Damn! I feel for ya!

[RockyTop]

I like my S18 more every time I ride it. It takes a little getting used to. I switched back to the XL for 10 miles and could not wait to switch back to the s18. One thing that I have noted is that the pedals on the XL are much firmer in the expert mode than the S18. I prefer the rock hard pedals of the MSX.
    
   That said the S18 has a new to me pedal program that lifts the front of the pedal slightly when you are likely to accelerate and dips when you are about to break? ( I don’t quite have it figured out yet.) I thought it was just Kingsong. I am primarily a GW rider. However when switching back to the XL I found that the XL does not do that. I could easily get used to whatever the S18 is doing. The software is pretty smart. 
 

Ugly or not I am ready for the GW suspension wheel. The S18 will likely beat the GW suspension wheel in several ways but I like my hard pedals and big batteries. 

[Patton250]

What the heck is going on? I have zero problems with my S 18. Now granted I think we’ve only done 50 miles or so but still. What’d I mis?????

[iode]

Nice, some really good points from Chooch laying out the pros and cons of the two big off-roading contenders.

[RockyTop]

31 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

What the heck is going on? I have zero problems with my S 18. Now granted I think we’ve only done 50 miles or so but still. What’d I mis?????

Right now the S18 is my favorite wheel. I think that there are a lot of new things to get used to. You have to take time and dial in the suspension. get used to the higher stance, get used to the pedal movements and find your foot position. The only quality issue that I have is that it came with one broken pedal spring and the second spring broke after a few days. I originally thought that the pedal was not  staying up because I still had the protective sticky bumper on it. I printed two new plastic springs and they are working fine so far. I might make a few small changes to them and put them on Thingaverse. 

I don't know why people are downing the wheel. I jumped off a 8" curb at 27mph It felt like a sidewalk joint. I don't really have anything bad to say about it. 

As a reference, I started an off road trail ride at 100% , 19 miles later I was at 67%.  Not Bad!!

Edited August 2, 2020 by RockyTop

[EUChristian]

A couple lemons out there but good encouragement as well. More to come good and bad I’m sure. Have to admit it’s getting better...getting better all the time. 

[Feynman]

15 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Right now the S18 is my favorite wheel. I think that there are a lot of new things to get used to. You have to take time and dial in the suspension. get used to the higher stance, get used to the pedal movements and find your foot position. The only quality issue that I have is that it came with one broken pedal spring and the second spring broke after a few days. I originally thought that the pedal was not  staying up because I still had the protective sticky bumper on it. I printed two new plastic springs and they are working fine so far. I might make a few small changes to them and put them on Thingaverse. 

I don't know why people are downing the wheel. I jumped off a 8" curb at 27mph It felt like a sidewalk joint. I don't really have anything bad to say about it. 

As a reference, I started an off road trail ride at 100% , 19 miles later I was at 67%.  Not Bad!!

So glad to see some love for the S18!  Seems like most reviewers I've seen prefer the V11.  I've had bad experience with InMotion wheels, so am biased; plus I think the V11 is ugly.  My S18 is stuck in HK for some reason, but I can't wait to get it.  I love my buddy's 16x and am hoping this wheel feels and rides similarly.   

[AtlasP]

On 8/2/2020 at 2:06 PM, iode said:

 

Well that's it then--Chooch the off-roader picks the V11 (in addition to all the primarily-street-rider youtubers who did so). All the arguing about shocks and built-in Kuji pads and such, and $5 worth of foam on the V11 was enough for it to basically close that gap, and all the other specs/details--particularly motor torque/power--push it ahead. (And this is even before/not taking into account the improved shock on the final production version as Chooch was still testing the preproduction model.) Not to mention him blanket praising both the V11 and S18 over any/all non-suspension wheels for off-roading.

Edited August 3, 2020 by AtlasP

[RockyTop]

@Duf just came out with a video explaining what happened to his V11. Long story short InMotion used a bearing that is not water resistant. After riding a short distance in the rain and then letting the wheel sit for a week the bearings developed a noise. ( Trust me when I tell you that bearing noise is not good.) 

On the plus side the rest of the V11 seems....    Nope I ain’t saying it but I am a little impressed. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by RockyTop

[Patton250]

1 hour ago, Feynman said:

So glad to see some love for the S18!  Seems like most reviewers I've seen prefer the V11.  I've had bad experience with InMotion wheels, so am biased; plus I think the V11 is ugly.  My S18 is stuck in HK for some reason, but I can't wait to get it.  I love my buddy's 16x and am hoping this wheel feels and rides similarly.   

I have both and like both but to be honest with you I have not ridden either that much because it’s like 80,000,000,000° here in Florida and riding right now it’s not very fun.

[Feynman]

1 minute ago, Patton250 said:

I have both and like both but to be honest with you I have not ridden either that much because it’s like 80,000,000,000° here in Florida and riding right now it’s not very fun.

It's about the same temp here in TX.  Haven't been on my Z10 in days.

[Ben Hatfield]

7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You have GOT to be shitting me. First ride on new firmware and I make it a total of 1' and the fukn wheel falls down, panel pops loose in the front, I step off and drop my camera. The newer firmware has changed how the trolley works. Now if you try to ride off with it barely up, itll let you get moving just enough to drop your ass. TOtal bullshit. I liked it before. SOmetimes i trolley my wheels with the trolley barely up. Try that with the s18 and newer fw and it just slowly drops to its  face. Nice upgrade for sure .Now I have a scratched up side panel and a ruined gopro max lens. I wish we would get firmware notes. Im going back to previous version, as I hadnt fallen off the damn thing with that firmware. Sonofabitch, THIS is why I ask wtf a firmware update entails. What a great fukn way to begin a damn ride.  I think we are OWED an explanation of ALL firmware changes, BEFORE we are instructed to update.

*nevermind, I'm selling it. First come first serve. Hell, Im even taking about a $400 loss.

for what little it is worth thanks for info on that trolly change

on the previous firmware, I did the same thing as you, I would trolly it around in that first position.  I saw nothing wrong with it.

Just updated to 2.05, and it totally does that fall off thing, forwards or backwards after like half a second?  wonder what the logic was there

[Scottie888]

17 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

I have both and like both but to be honest with you I have not ridden either that much because it’s like 80,000,000,000° here in Florida and riding right now it’s not very fun.

U can biaatch again again & again & I still wouldn't feel any sympathy for u Floridians. As for why, come hoof it up to the Great White North in Jan/Feb when its -20c with 2 feet of the white stuff far's the eye can see. Maybe then u bast$^#ds (jokingly ofcos) will understand the beauty of heat😅!

[EUChristian]

46 minutes ago, Ben Hatfield said:

for what little it is worth thanks for info on that trolly change

on the previous firmware, I did the same thing as you, I would trolly it around in that first position.  I saw nothing wrong with it.

Just updated to 2.05, and it totally does that fall off thing, forwards or backwards after like half a second?  wonder what the logic was there

Good thing this is just a firm wear update. I’m surprised as well and this is probably a simple oversight in coding. Just reset that issue to the way it was before, adjust the 45degree cutoff choice mentions (V11 to him seems to feel better in the curves) and adjust the wheel to 35MPH top speed above 75% battery. 
 

three coding changes Jack for next firmware update...can you help us?  This trolley thing is now worse not better. 

[RockyTop]

I just came back from my second 20 mile ride on the S18 today and I have my first complaint. I really enjoyed jumping speed bumps on my MSX. The suspension on the S18 just soaks them up. 

[Rehab1]

2 hours ago, Ben Hatfield said:

Just updated to 2.05, and it totally does that fall off thing, forwards or backwards after like half a second?  wonder what the logic was there

Just performed the update and I have the same issue. Once you extend the handle beyond the 1st notch everything is fine.

Not sure what type of lifting sensor(s) the handle has but there must be more than one sensor that determines the telescopic position.

If the new 2.05 FW update can easily interrupt a wheel‘s momentum in these circumstances I have concerns. Why does the S18 trolley electronics need to be so complicated?

Edited August 3, 2020 by Rehab1

[Rehab1]

3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

 

@Duf just came out with a video explaining what happened to his V11. Long story short InMotion used a bearing that is not water resistant. After riding a short distance in the rain and then letting the wheel sit for a week the bearings developed a noise. ( Trust me when I tell you that beating noise is not good.) 

 

That happened before with the V10F where IM used suboptimal bearings. During their recall they were replacing bearings and waterproofing the batteries. Such an expensive mistake.

[Electric Dreams]

10 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You have GOT to be shitting me. First ride on new firmware and I make it a total of 1' and the fukn wheel falls down, panel pops loose in the front, I step off and drop my camera. The newer firmware has changed how the trolley works. Now if you try to ride off with it barely up, itll let you get moving just enough to drop your ass. TOtal bullshit. I liked it before. SOmetimes i trolley my wheels with the trolley barely up. Try that with the s18 and newer fw and it just slowly drops to its  face. Nice upgrade for sure .Now I have a scratched up side panel and a ruined gopro max lens. I wish we would get firmware notes. Im going back to previous version, as I hadnt fallen off the damn thing with that firmware. Sonofabitch, THIS is why I ask wtf a firmware update entails. What a great fukn way to begin a damn ride.  I think we are OWED an explanation of ALL firmware changes, BEFORE we are instructed to update.

*nevermind, I'm selling it. First come first serve. Hell, Im even taking about a $400 loss.

You are not meant to ride with the handle up as thats 'lift mode'. The video shared about firmware 204 demonstrated how the trolley handle works. 

Heres a breakdown of how the trolley handle in lift position in these firmwares:

2.02

When handle reaches lift position the motor would cut off. Meaning the user needs to go from lowest-highest in one rapid/smooth motion.
2.03
When handle reaches lift position the wheel would still stay upright and you could ride it at a risk of it not offering you enough power, you would be able to reach 5-10km. This presented a safety issue of riders not knowing they were riding with handle being in 'lift position'
2.04/2.05

Dialed back even more, when the wheel reaches lift position the power is limited to the point where you can hardly ride it, this meant that if the rider started riding it in lift position the wheel would stop at 1km/h preventing injury at a higher speed. You can see the motor power difference when you lift up the wheel in 2.03 vs 2.04. This meant the wheel doesnt just drop in it's lift position. 

Please note these are not the only changes to the firmwares, 2.05 should be launched via King Song app this week. If you see the firmwares on the KS app, you can update and I'll put update notes in there. 

Please avoid using Softtuner, its a developer app and includes firmwares that are not fully released. 

[Electric Dreams]

I'll provide 2.05 updates through app, again please update to latest firmwares via app. Not Softtuner. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Jack King Song

[Rehab1]

7 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

Dialed back even more, when the wheel reaches lift position the power is limited to the point where you can hardly ride it, t

Jack should there be any concerns of the S18 shutting down if the trolley handle inadvertently pops up while riding? 

[Electric Dreams]

7 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

Jack should there be any concerns of the S18 shutting down if the trolley handle inadvertently pops up while riding? 

No, as stated in the video. Whilst riding if the handle pops up into lift position it wont change the dynamics of the wheel aka causing you to cut out. The biggest concern I had with 203 was that riders would ride in lift position on purpose/or by accident and cut out at a higher speed than 204+ 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Jack King Song

[.....]

12 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

No, as stated in the video. Whilst riding if the handle pops up into lift position it wont change the dynamics of the wheel aka causing you to cut out. The biggest concern I had with 203 was that riders would ride in lift position on purpose and cut out at a higher speed than 204+ 

My biggest concern was that I had not known wtf firmware updates entailed, and the latest version caused it to drop the rider at slow speed. I was advised to use the soft tuner app to update the 'firmwaer'  and did so, against my own better judgement. If a rider was riding the tiltback of the previous version, they were obviously asking for trouble. If a rider just forget to drop his handle all the way on the new firmware, he'll be reminded so quickly, it will cause a wheel drop. A wheel drop on a wheel that is damn hard to grab as its falling.  It wasnt JUST the firmware bullshit, there was a few things that pushed me to selling at a loss. I wont list the issues here, but a big one is that the wheel affords no more power than the old 18L. Plush ride on the s18, but at too great a loss in other areas. Not being able to mount the thing on a hill and ride off like an 18L is also one of them. It just wasnt meant for me I guess. Oddly, NOW I'm worried for the Sherman I have on order.  DOn't worry Jack, mines sold (at a considerable loss) so you neednt read my opinions on it much anymore.

Edited August 3, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Rehab1]

2 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

No, as stated in the video. Whilst riding if the handle pops up into lift position it wont change the dynamics of the wheel aka causing you to cut out. The biggest concern I had with 203 was that riders would ride in lift position on purpose and cut out at a higher speed than 204+ 

Thanks! I’m relieved! Your basis for updating the firmware is sound. Your detailed breakdown on FW changes was excellent! Please continue providing these important specifics with each new FW modification. Thanks again!

[Rehab1]

1 minute ago, ShanesPlanet said:

My biggest concern was that I had not known wtf firmware updates entailed, and the latest version caused it to drop the rider at slow speed.

Hopefully Jack will continue to provide a full breakdown of the new features applied to each FW update when released.

Shane I could very easily have experienced the same unfortunate outcome you had if I had updated my firmware earlier. I owe you!

[EUChristian]

Here’s the real question. Can the handle accidentally pop up or is it only a possible user error issue?  My KS-16 handle locks down and no amount of juggling or bouncing would open it up. It’s impossible without depressing the button.  I realize this is a different type of trolley. Without hitting the button to raise it - does it seem possible for it to accidentally come loose?