King Song S18 Discussion

[eve]

1 minute ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Not at all surprised to see the V11 vs S18 discussion going the way it is...  

Personally, I bought the S18 because its design carries the majority of the device's weight on the suspension.  In heavy off-road applications, this design *should* work better.  The V11's design, carrying the rider on the suspension, seem to be more noticeable and more forgiving in less demanding circumstances.  I would think that as long as the suspension can isolate the rider from the "business-end" of the experience, the V11's design should win out, but once you cross that threshold, the benefits of the S18's design should become apparent. 

As far as jumping, while the lack of padding can be inexpensively addressed, it doesn't seem like having the weight of the device sitting at the end of the suspension travel will ever be ideal...  But clearly, this can also be managed.    

So far, I'm the only person I know of who bought my first EUC specifically for riding offroad, and the difference in suspension design is the only reason I chose the S18.  It sounds like some of the S18 folks are going to have to get over the fact that for many people, the V11 design is going to work great, especially for a wheel that's going to see a lot of mixed use.  

I bought it because: 
1. It was cheapest. 

2. Best jump wheel.

3. Best off-road wheel. 

So youre definetly not alone since S18 will be my first wheel too and youre right. The main point of suspension is not stress-relieve but increased traction. S18s design is the one best for this.

Same with jumping. S18s suspension is just better because you take the wheel with you, not just a saddle. 

But i think ill buy V11 too just later. 

[ColoradoQuattro]

3 minutes ago, Feynman said:

I'll probably never ride the S18 on any serious trails.  It just looks f@#in cool and I love the 16x.

Well, there's that.  It's an incontrovertible fact that the S18 wins in the "looks f@#in cool" test.

[redfoxdude]

4 minutes ago, eve said:

But i think ill buy V11 too just later. 

I think a stable with both the S18 and the V11 would be a very fun one. =]

[eve]

16 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

I think a stable with both the S18 and the V11 would be a very fun one. =]

When Chooch described how jumping on V11 feels, i knew i had to buy it lol. Its me, Mario!

But i might succumb to 3100Wh battery of the Sherman.  

I could basically use the Sherman to commute to work and back for a whole week and not charge it lol.

Edited August 3, 2020 by eve

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Scottie888 said:

The V11 reminds me of a horse ass saddle

Now ..now. Be kind. 
 

 

I actually did put a saddle on my Z10 just for fun.
 

 

[Feynman]

16 minutes ago, eve said:

When Chooch described how jumping on V11 feels, i knew i had to buy it lol. Its me, Mario!

But i might succumb to 3100Wh battery of the Sherman.  

I could basically use the Sherman to commute to work and back for a whole week and not charge it lol.

The Sherman is tempting because of the stronger motor and giant battery, but 77lbs and $2850 >.<

Just now, Rehab1 said:

Now ..now. Be kind. 
 

 

I actually did put a saddle on my Z10 just for fun.
 

 

The Z10 still looks better even with the saddle than the V11.

[Scottie888]

@ColoradoQuattro Count me in on S18 mainly for not just offroad but MTB trails as well. I'm a newbie wheeler that started with a Tesla V2 1480 this mid spring & fell in love with the hobby/sport almost immediately so much so I sold my 40+mph escooter coz I wasn't riding it anymore. I thought about upgrading the Tesla for a better ride & indeed, was inches away from pulling the trigger on the newest greatest Sherman cos who doesn't love speed!

Then I recalled Kuji's vids showing the Sherm bouncing all over the place & then epiphany struck. Why only one wheel to do it all (maybe) but instead, multiples to do it all & do it well. The Tesla was/is great for paved bike paths, city commutes & even does reasonable on tight packed trails but I wouldn't call that offroad IMO. Heck even the Mten3 is an offroad wheel if we use that term loosely.

I ordered the S18 specifically as a monowheel MTB as it's the best "offroad" wheel currently available for all mountain rides, bike parks & whatnot. While more topspeed is always good, it isn't a priority (or even a necessity) for technical MTB rides.    

FWIW I still don't get why ppl have to "prove" their choices is best as best is very subjective unless one gets technically specific.

[Jon Stern]

2 hours ago, eve said:

Its not people just dont have enough iQ to listen to what Chooch is saying. 

He said "I would take the V11 over S18 ON THIS TRACK!" 

Sadly they only heard "I would take the V11 over S18!"

It's very clear what Chooch said. I don't think many people are taking that to mean that the V11 is the better off-road wheel in all conditions. It's more that it's the better wheel overall (headlight, speed, torque, range, finish), and the off-roading capabilities are better than people assumed, and good enough for one renowned off road rider.

[eve]

Its 2750 on Chickway. In € thats like more then 350€ less then official distributors are selling for. In EU V11/S18 are 2200€. Sherman is 2700€. Official.

[eve]

4 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

FWIW I still don't get why ppl have to "prove" their choices is best as best is very subjective unless one gets technically specific.

I would like to get an answer to that too. Ive been wondering if there is such a thing as "best" wheel. Why do most rider own multiple wheels? 

3 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

It's very clear what Chooch said. I don't think many people are taking that to mean that the V11 is the better off-road wheel in all conditions. It's more that it's the better wheel overall (headlight, speed, torque, range, finish), and the off-roading capabilities are better than people assumed, and good enough for one renowned off road rider.

Tell us something we didnt know 2 months ago.  Why did it take a word from Chooch to realize those facts?

Edited August 3, 2020 by eve

[EUChristian]

Honestly if INMOTION released the S18 design I would buy it from them. Much more of a head turning design, I’ll take some limitations to get it. I’ll be surprised if Kingsong can get more out of this design...maybe going to a monster sized wheel with S18 design might net more battery?  But then the weight goes up...you can’t win here. I am a “buy this wheel for off-road fun and then 2 years down the road get a Sherman V2 for road/speed/distance” guy. Then I am complete...
 

When buying cars when I was young, I wanted the fastest car, regardless of how it looked. When I got older, I wanted a reliable car that was beautiful, regardless of how fast it was. 
 

I’m feeling the same way about this purchase...

Edited August 3, 2020 by EUChristian

[eve]

@EUChristian Imo. what they fitted into S18 is just scratching the surface. The design will change a little bit but there will be more battery i think, definetly. 

Keep in mind that S18 was rushed. 

In the future iterations the design minght not be as open as it is now but i see a lot of improvement to it. This is just the first try and to be honest they didnt even really try. 

Inmotion tried. They tried very hard and its easy to see. V11 the next-gen cruiser of 2020 while S18 is the prototype off-road/freestyle wheel of 2020.

[EUChristian]

13 minutes ago, eve said:

@EUChristian Imo. what they fitted into S18 is just scratching the surface. The design will change a little bit but there will be more battery i think, definetly. 

Keep in mind that S18 was rushed. 

In the future iterations the design minght not be as open as it is now but i see a lot of improvement to it. This is just the first try and to be honest they didnt even really try. 

Inmotion tried. They tried very hard and its easy to see. V11 the next-gen cruiser of 2020 while S18 is the prototype off-road/freestyle wheel of 2020.

Agreed!  Do you think the only way to do it is to go to a larger wheel?  Or make the wheel taller...neither is particularly advantageous but I think a 22 inch wheel will be less top heavy with small batteries. 

[UniVehje]

Having done a lot of off-roading on wheels and then reading these comments declaring the S18 as clearly better off-roader because of more complicated suspension makes me wonder if people really know what they’re talking about. I’m by no means claiming the S18 to be worse at it, but please remember riding off-road is much more than just suspension. In bike world only downhill riders are all about suspension and we are not riding at those speeds and those trails. Suspension is important for sure but only one piece of the package. I still haven’t tested either one of these wheels but looking at them I see a lot of improvements on both and to me the stock S18 looks more like a street racer.
However, it’ll be a fantastic off-roader anyway, beating at least all the non-suspension wheels and will shine when going over small repetitive bumps. But there will be many situations where the suspension will not cover for other shortcomings e.g. in grip, clearance (sticks getting stuck), torque and breaking. The V11 is not perfect either, but suspension is not the bottle neck. Many other issues would stop me getting over obstacles before the suspension reaches its capability limits. 
 

Which one of these two would you choose for an off-road trail ride? 


The one with more complicated suspension of course!  (Just kidding)

[AtlasP]

1 hour ago, Jon Stern said:

It's very clear what Chooch said. I don't think many people are taking that to mean that the V11 is the better off-road wheel in all conditions. It's more that it's the better wheel overall (headlight, speed, torque, range, finish), and the off-roading capabilities are better than people assumed, and good enough for one renowned off road rider.

Ding ding ding.

[eve]

45 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

Agreed!  Do you think the only way to do it is to go to a larger wheel?  Or make the wheel taller...neither is particularly advantageous but I think a 22 inch wheel will be less top heavy with small batteries. 

Imo it will be possible with roughly the same size. It will just the general shape of the wheel that will change. Well see. 

I doubt S18 is the best result they can get. Its just the best result they got in the amount of time they had.

[eve]

52 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Having done a lot of off-roading on wheels and then reading these comments declaring the S18 as clearly better off-roader because of more complicated suspension makes me wonder if people really know what they’re talking about.

I dont think you understand how suspension works and what is its purpose. 

We have 2: One where only the wheel moves and one where everything but the saddle moves. 

Purpose of suspension is to makes that no matter what elevation your vehicle gets from hitting a big bump your tyre stays in contact with the ground. 

And it doesnt take a genius to know what moves faster/better? 

One wheel or a whole 25kg of EUC?

@AtlasP 

Edited August 3, 2020 by eve

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Well, there's that.  It's an incontrovertible fact that the S18 wins in the "looks f@#in cool" test.

Hmm. I just did that exact test, and the S18 lost. By quite a margin even.

47 minutes ago, eve said:

I dont think you understand how suspension works and what is its purpose.

Sounds like you haven’t been off-roading very much. Or you missed Chooch’s video.

There was a “best off-road EUC” before suspension wheels as well. While surely very important, suspension is just one part of what makes a good off-roader.

[eve]

1 minute ago, mrelwood said:

Sounds like you haven’t been off-roading very much. Or you missed Chooch’s video.

There was a “best off-road EUC” before suspension wheels as well. While surely very important, suspension is just one part of what makes a good off-roader.

 The Topic was suspension not "Best Off-Road EUC."

 

[Feynman]

1 hour ago, eve said:

 

 

I guess everyone wants to be happy with their choice of wheel and be proven 'correct' in their choice.  I don't think I'll ever find a wheel that I like better than my  Z10.  While I've only ridden the 16x twice, it's so different than the Z10.  10x easier to turn, you can actually turn sharp and carve on the 16x, and the motor has more oompf.   I'd love to own both, but I ordered an S18 because it was the newest gen, basically the same price as the 16x, and it looks cool as $h!t.  I know there are plenty of people who hate the Z10 (Ian from Speedy Feet, for example), but I could care less.  That's kind of how I feel about the S18.  

Edited August 3, 2020 by Feynman
Meh

[RockyTop]

I was playing with speed bumps yesterday. The road that I was on had about twenty speed bump one every 100 yards. I started out slow and because the wheel did so well I increased my speed every speed bump. I stopped at 20 mph, not because the wheel was having problems, not because it was difficult. I just did not want to push my luck. I would have never believed that such was possible. If the V11 can do the same with the unsprung weight ...... I just would not think that is could. 

The more I ride the S18, the more I am impressed. 

[EUChristian]

41 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Hmm. I just did that exact test, and the S18 lost. By quite a margin even.

Sounds like you haven’t been off-roading very much. Or you missed Chooch’s video.

There was a “best off-road EUC” before suspension wheels as well. While surely very important, suspension is just one part of what makes a good off-roader.

Agreed. Would you also agree suspension is the top “part” that would contribute the most to making a good off roader?  And that no wheel without suspension can complete with a comparable wheel with one when off road use is the utility?  In other words a Sherman with suspension vs one without suspension...Which would be better off road?

Edited August 4, 2020 by EUChristian

[EUChristian]

30 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

I was playing with speed bumps yesterday. The road that I was on had about twenty speed bump one every 100 yards. I started out slow and because the wheel did so well I increased my speed every speed bump. I stopped at 20 mph, not because the wheel was having problems, not because it was difficult. I just did not want to push my luck. I would have never believed that such was possible. If the V11 can do the same with the unsprung weight ...... I just would not think that is could. 

The more I ride the S18, the more I am impressed. 

The best part is the faster you go you’ll reach plane off speed - right around where you were at 20mph - where the faster you go the smaller the bumps feel. 

[Electric Dreams]

6 hours ago, eve said:

It does Jack. In offroad situations and some actual roads are tilted sometimes and that 45 degree angle cut off is just a lottery for experience riders and provides no safety for new riders. 

The angle cut-off is there when you crash so your wheel doesnt spin out of control and injure someone or do damage to someones property. I see no other reason for it. 

And what could a beginner do with a 60 degree angle cut off? Nothing. He would ride the same way as usual and no difference noticed. 

Am i missing something here?

It's not during normal ride that the beginner would experience something, but back in the day all wheels wouldnt cut off almost until it was laid down. This meant the wheel would tumble, injuring the rider and the wheel. I understand we've now gone into new territory where EUCs are stepping into offroad and skate park like environments but changes must be added at caution. I'm thoroughly thinking about it, and in fact the the team has been thinking about it deeply in the past few weeks. 

[Mark Wilson]

10 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

It's not during normal ride that the beginner would experience something, but back in the day all wheels wouldnt cut off almost until it was laid down. This meant the wheel would tumble, injuring the rider and the wheel. I understand we've now gone into new territory where EUCs are stepping into offroad and skate park like environments but changes must be added at caution. I'm thoroughly thinking about it, and in fact the the team has been thinking about it deeply in the past few weeks. 

Thanks so much for looking into this. I have the feeling that eliminating, or at least reducing, the chance of a wheel cutoff due to too much lean angle would make riding an electric unicycle off-road much safer as well as opening up the riding possibilities for experienced riders.