King Song S18 Discussion

[Shield]

2 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

After reading the V11 and S18 posts I think that I have figured something out. The S18 people are pessimist  and the V11 people are optimist.  

That must make the Sherman people realists. 

[Feynman]

28 minutes ago, Shield said:

That must make the Sherman people realists. 

 

Doh!

[redfoxdude]

Darn, my low phone battery goofed up the last portion of the tour log of today's ride... But I got about 36 miles (32 without feeling too bogged down by the throttling on the way home, uphill...). Pretty happy with that, especially with all the hills and what not!

[fbhb]

Ecodrift's Kingsong S18. I'm still fighting the wheel.

In the previous part of the story about S18 I ran into a number of problems. The main two: pillows and comfortable shock absorber work. I didn't give up and started experimenting. The most important thing is to deal with pillows that were completely unsuitable for my legs. We need to get rid of the convex face that was pressing me in the leg.

But, first of all, an important note! Be sure to put firmware 2.05! 2.03 is a very insidious firmware. The fact is that if the handle is pulled for carrying, the wheel includes a sleep mode, and at the same time retains the traction! The pull is quite weak and the wheel is not dangerous, but even such traction is enough to get up on the wheel and it does not throw you off. At 2.03 this thrust is high and you can even drive a wheel. As a result, people get up on the wheel with the handle raised, go, try to accelerate and immediately fall. It's unpleasant and even dangerous. To avoid this problem at 2.05 the thrust is reduced to a minimum. So now it is very difficult to get up on the wheel, so it does not go straight, so you will not forget that you have a sleep mode.

The solution was quickly implemented with the help of foamed polyethylene, in which the wheel was packed. I hope that soon there will be some custom more beautiful pillows, and while Kingsong is becoming more and more like Gotway because on any Gotway I just can not ride in the form in which it goes out of the box. Of course, I understand perfectly well that someone's native pillows S18 will seem fit. It's just about my legs. Because you have to torment the suspension, you want to skate, and when you press your feet, this case turns into torture. So if my advice helps anyone, I'll be happy.

The foam from the packaging is glued together in layers, I took two layers to be soft enough. The new "cushions" are very easy to squeeze, so there are no more problems with pressure. But the question remains of sliding feet over the pillows and the lack of "grabbing." But it's a little thing.

The main thing is that it is convenient to stand comfortably, nothing presses and I am ready to ride like this all day long.

He glued new "cushions" on two-way scotch, but the rear "tails" are still treacherously unstuck.

By the way, the photo is a size 43 leg.

I don't know what the width of the pedals can be. That's the stock.

Comparison with Sherman. View from above. The width of the S18, even with the new pillows, is still wide and comparable to Sherman, MSX, etc.

And now we have to go outside right with the shock pump and figure out what I'm doing wrong when setting up.

Last time I forgot to show where the dust is going. Over here.

Another point is related to the axis. It's just open from the bottom. On other monowheels the axis passes inside the pedal, and dirt does not get on it. Here the axis constantly swallows dust, and in the end when riding the pedals are not very pleasantly creaked or crunched.

They also asked to come to the ladder. It was dry, and in such a "Soviet ladder" S18 fits in at all without problems. But grasping at the S18 is not too convenient. The telescopic handle is not suitable for rolling. Therefore, it was necessary to bend down and rest his hand on the upper cover of the body in the area of the taillight. I push down and a little forward and the wheel confidently, easily, without stalling rolls. Personally, I'd rather be carrying him.

Back to the suspension. So, again, what do I want to achieve and what didn't suit me last time? Comfort. I want the suspension to be as comfortable as possible for the urban environment. That is, small curbs, bumps, bumps, jumping off high curbs and, if possible, of course, reclining obstacles. To make all this softer, smoother and did not cause significant problems. Last time, I put a block of kit in the wheel, pumped something, as written in the instructions, went and I did not like it. It turned out that I was doing everything wrong and the instruction was too close. It would be better to open a guide to the shock absorber itself, which, incidentally, also goes in the kit. The essence of the setting boils down to the fact that you need to put pressure in a negative chamber, and then pump up the positive so as to get the right sag. And that's it. What gives pressure in the negative chamber? The thing is, if we only had one camera and we pumped into the main chamber, say 200psi, then when we get on the wheel, nothing will happen. The suspension will not go down because the pressure in the shock absorber chamber will keep it in the top position. We're going to have to put some extra force in to move the shock absorber and the whole suspension with it. If you simply reduce the pressure in the main chamber, the suspension will be too soft and will easily break through. You can increase the size of the camera, it will solve almost all the issues, except the main - dimensions. That's why the negative camera was invented. It is very small and is needed only for the moment of straining the piston shock absorber was easy. We pump some pressure into the negative chamber, it balances the pressure in the main chamber and now the shock absorber starts working.

If we catch a big bump, the piston falls deep, then in the main chamber we have pressure increases, and in the negative decreases. Since the"negative"is very small, pretty quickly the pressure becomes not only zero, but also negative, i.e. the negative camera begins to help work and the main, i.e. shock absorber. In general, the most understandable and comfortable pressure of the negative camera is equal to the pressure in the main. But in reality, everything is a little more complicated, and in the case of our S18 is still more difficult. Because we can't just get both cameras pumped up. We are hindered by the very body of the wheel. The manufacturer took care and put the plastic block to facilitate pumping. But. The bar is placed so that the shock absorber is compressed. And as I said above, it means that in the negative chamber most likely there will be negative pressure, and in the main it is increased. That is, it turns out that it is impossible to set up an amortisaor in this way. At least we're going to do it wrong when we pump a negative camera. Therefore, the first thing to do is to pump up the negative camera with a fully pushed stock shock absorber.

The wheel out of the box is completely deflated. That is, the stock is not advanced, but on the contrary moved. So that's the first thing to do. It's to put the bar. Pump up the main chamber to the pressure of 150psi, remove the bars. Stock has cracked at full length, and now we swing the negative camera. The manufacturer recommends 50-80psi.

We've got to figure it out again. If we do higher pressure in the negative, the sag becomes also more, as the lower chamber moves the piston higher. To compensate for the increased sag, you will have to pump more into the main chamber. And I want to achieve maximum comfort, i.e. I need to achieve two things: 1. minimum sag, in the area of 15mm, 2. minimum pressure in the main chamber. It follows that it is necessary to pump the minimum pressure into the negative chamber. So I swing 50psi.

I tried of course generally to lower it and nothing to swing. But I didn't notice any significant difference in the saga, but there were some strange sensations when the shock absorber was working. So I decided to keep the value of 50. If I swing more, the control rubber band obviously quickly begins to go down, i.e. the sag increases, and I just did not want it.

So I leave 50, I watch the sag (at the top we have q/- 150psi). Sagging is something about 20mm (my weight is around 95kg).

That's a lot. And I put the bar again, squeezing the suspension, pumping the upper chamber up to 200psi. I'm cleaning the bar. It's very important! Every time you need to set up the sag, you need to insert a bar, twist the pump, pump, remove the pump, remove the bar and check the sag. It's very long and very tedious. But believe me, otherwise it will only get worse. If you start trying to regulate the sag of the lower chamber, it does not lead to anything good. The suspension becomes too stiff, or vice versa too viscous and you will just hang at the bottom point of the pedals. The lower chamber, of course, can be pumped or lowered, but only for easy adjustment of the suspension. The initial setting is better done with the already exposed pressure in the negative chamber.

So, I put 200, tried, travelled, it seemed all well, but I felt harsh. And I decide to lower the pressure to 170. At 170 it was much more comfortable. But the sag ended up at a critical 15mm. The downside is that when driving we get quite low lower overhangs. But that's how I decide to go for a ride. But we need to check the suspension, so that there was no breakdown.

I jump from the high curbs, pass the reclining at full speed and get this position of the rubber band (see above).

Now I'm trying to break the suspension with all the weight.

Finally, I load it completely. It is evident that the feelings did not deceive me. Until the end of the suspension and before the breakout I could not bring it on my own. So the setting has a right to exist.

But there is another nuance. All of our shock absorber settings are nothing compared to the impact of how the rest of the suspension works. Painted pipes and plastic anthers are not the best pair of friction. The suspension itself has a decent viscosity, which requires extra force to move the guide pipes. And then there is the most important nuance that the suspension is rubbing. After all my experiments, the suspension just got better and easier to move. And this, perhaps, was the main factor that now the wheel began to ride very, very comfortably. If on the first day I understood that the suspension worked, but did not leave the feeling that something was wrong, this time I was already driving and got a huge buzz. The suspension began to swallow all the irregularities. The ride turned into a stunning unimaginable slip. It's very, very cool.

What's with the outage? 0. Anything above zero is absolutely meaningless in the conditions, as I wrote, rubbing the rest of the suspension. Even at zero the reaction rate is very, very low and I want to add more, but the red puck is already at zero. Therefore, for a comfortable ride you just need to put 0. Of course, there are a lot of people who will twist at the temple, try to prove something, start rubbing glasses about the trampoline, swinging and other game. And even when they ride, they'll still say you have to put 10 clicks otherwise you'll get extra aftershocks when the moon passes Saturn. I don't care. Write what you want. Bet what you want according to your religion. In any case, the difference between 0 and 15 clicks is so insignificant and imperceptible that even if you put 15, you will not lose much.

By setting up, I'm still not 100% sure what I'm doing and advising everything right. But at least I managed to achieve under the weight of 90-95 kg really amazing comfort.

And once again, as I personally advise to adjust the suspension.

1. put the bar, the top chamber pumped up to 150psi

2. Remove the bar, the bottom pumped up to 50 (without stock, just 50, do not be afraid of the push when unscrewed)

3. watching your weight. Put the bar. Below 80kg swing 150psi, 80-90 - 160psi, 95 - 170psi, 100-110kg - 180-200psi, etc.

4. Remove the bar check the sag. If something is wrong, then again put the bar and pump the top chamber.

What else do we have left? Overhangs that should be cut off in a good way. I measure the depth of the battery. 23mm.

The battery goes less than half into this frame. I think that it is quite possible to cut down under this level. The only thing that needs to be cut is to protect the solid plastic, which I do not have at the moment.

Here are the dimensions, for clarity.

The length of the pedal.

The approximate width of the case in the top part under the legs.

The height of the handle.

 

Let's sum it up. After I was able to solve the issue with the pillows under my feet, I was finally able to adjust the suspension, which began to work almost perfectly. At least I've never ridden anything so comfortably. It's just amazing. If the V11 punches on the reclining, you feel a rather hard landing from high curbs, then on the S18 the same kerb is like landing in the "washcloths" of the athletics hall at long jump. It's so soft, so comfortable, it's breath taking. I want more and more. The beds become just small pieces. You can not strain and do not climb out of the phone. And the most recent conclusion for me personally, the S18 rides better and more comfortable than any other wheel to date.

PS: I want custom pillows for tests.

Follow the blog: https://ecodrift.ru/2020/08/15/kingsong-s18-prodolzhayu-srazhenie-s-kolesom/

Edited August 16, 2020 by fbhb

[Beachboy]

Did KS sends preproduction unit to ecodrift for reviews before launching it out?

i like ecodrift reviews more than those youtubers except I dont understand russian language..😅😅😅

 

[RockyTop]

STL file for 3D printed Kingsong S18 pedal spring. Thingiverse  

I am also selling them on eBay at cost. eBay S18 pedal spring

They seem to function better than the originals , yet have not been tested over an extended period of time. 

[eve]

9 minutes ago, Denny Lai said:

Did KS sends preproduction unit to ecodrift for reviews before launching it out?

i like ecodrift reviews more than those youtubers except I dont understand russian language..😅😅😅

 

The post here is the production wheel. He didnt liked the thicked padding at the top. I think.

[Feynman]

27 minutes ago, eve said:

The post here is the production wheel. He didnt liked the thicked padding at the top. I think.

I agree with the Russian.  The padding is so thick it's uncomfortable to ride (20" calves).

[FinRider]

2 hours ago, Feynman said:

I agree with the Russian.  The padding is so thick it's uncomfortable to ride (20" calves).

For me its the opposite, i need more width up top as the wheel is barely touching my legs... i am a bit bowlegged from playing too much soccer and too little stretching in my teens...

I also need to make longer footpedals. I have a size 45 foot (11 US) and my toes are hanging way over the front to the point that i can curl my toes over the pedals... need another 2-3cm of comfort.. gotta see what i can fabricate for this.

are there any powerpads available for the s18 yet?

[UniVehje]

14 hours ago, fbhb said:

But there is another nuance. All of our shock absorber settings are nothing compared to the impact of how the rest of the suspension works. Painted pipes and plastic anthers are not the best pair of friction. The suspension itself has a decent viscosity, which requires extra force to move the guide pipes. And then there is the most important nuance that the suspension is rubbing. After all my experiments, the suspension just got better and easier to move. And this, perhaps, was the main factor that now the wheel began to ride very, very comfortably. If on the first day I understood that the suspension worked, but did not leave the feeling that something was wrong, this time I was already driving and got a huge buzz. The suspension began to swallow all the irregularities. The ride turned into a stunning unimaginable slip. It's very, very cool.

I felt similar when testing @FinRider’s S18 briefly. It felt like it’s stuck and not moving freely. It could be that many samples have some initial friction that needs to wear out for the suspension to start working well. There’s a lot of moving parts put together by the Chinese assembly workers and it’s early production. 

[Mark Wilson]

15 hours ago, fbhb said:

Back to the suspension. So, again, what do I want to achieve and what didn't suit me last time? Comfort. I want the suspension to be as comfortable as possible for the urban environment. That is, small curbs, bumps, bumps, jumping off high curbs and, if possible, of course, reclining obstacles. To make all this softer, smoother and did not cause significant problems. Last time, I put a block of kit in the wheel, pumped something, as written in the instructions, went and I did not like it. It turned out that I was doing everything wrong and the instruction was too close.

 

15 hours ago, fbhb said:

If we catch a big bump, the piston falls deep, then in the main chamber we have pressure increases, and in the negative decreases. Since the"negative"is very small, pretty quickly the pressure becomes not only zero, but also negative, i.e. the negative camera begins to help work and the main, i.e. shock absorber.

 

15 hours ago, fbhb said:

And once again, as I personally advise to adjust the suspension.

1. put the bar, the top chamber pumped up to 150psi

2. Remove the bar, the bottom pumped up to 50 (without stock, just 50, do not be afraid of the push when unscrewed)

3. watching your weight. Put the bar. Below 80kg swing 150psi, 80-90 - 160psi, 95 - 170psi, 100-110kg - 180-200psi, etc.

4. Remove the bar check the sag. If something is wrong, then again put the bar and pump the top chamber.

So, as I understand it, to properly setup the suspension you need to inflate the upper/positive chamber to the desired pressure with the block installed (about 150 psi), then remove the block and inflate the lower/negative chamber to the desired pressure (about 50 psi). If you don't remove the block before inflating the negative chamber the pressure will be drastically different to what it was set at? Is this what everyone else is experiencing too?

[Mark Wilson]

15 hours ago, fbhb said:

But there is another nuance. All of our shock absorber settings are nothing compared to the impact of how the rest of the suspension works. Painted pipes and plastic anthers are not the best pair of friction. The suspension itself has a decent viscosity, which requires extra force to move the guide pipes. And then there is the most important nuance that the suspension is rubbing. After all my experiments, the suspension just got better and easier to move. And this, perhaps, was the main factor that now the wheel began to ride very, very comfortably. If on the first day I understood that the suspension worked, but did not leave the feeling that something was wrong, this time I was already driving and got a huge buzz. The suspension began to swallow all the irregularities. The ride turned into a stunning unimaginable slip. It's very, very cool.

This makes me wonder if the people who said the suspension didn't feel as responsive as they'd like simply had over tightened linkage systems from the factory. (We already know some workers at KingSong get overaggressive when it comes to tightening bolts)

[Nifrigel]

Well, it was kinda obvious from the beginning that calibrating the suspension of the S18 would be pain in the ass.

[Ben Hatfield]

8 hours ago, FinRider said:

are there any powerpads available for the s18 yet?

this is my pad solution at the moment.

I opted to put the pedals at the highest setting for max clearance of the bottom bits - even though I have size 10 (American) feet.  I rode at the lowest pedal setting for a while, and while I could dig my feet in better, I hit a few things on the ground when compressing the shocks that took away my confidence when approaching curbs.  With the pedals at the top position, combined with the white pads above my feet - I feel 'locked in' and more confidence with the clearance.  I found with the back pads (top back side of legs), I really liked them tapered so I can rest my leg on them, but having just enough there to provide some extra leverage.  The acceleration pads are in a really good spot for me.  I'm 6'1"/184cm.  I used velcro/glue on the top pads, and double stick tape (plus a little contact cement) to adhere the white neoprene pads on the bottom

random, but anyone ride this with staggered (uneven) pedal heights?  I don't see a reason to recommend it, but if anyone wanted an unsymmetrical feel, the S18 can surely provide it!

[fbhb]

 

[ir_fuel]

A comment under this video :

 

 

 

Arseniy Fomin50 minutes ago (edited)

And NY crush. As for S18, we already have here in Russia a case when on just 25 km/h a guy haven't noticed a bump and broken a metal (!) plate on the top of the wheel (the one where all suspension rails come into) into two parts, it appeared that it is made of a powder metal of a very bad quality. Also, suspension doesn't work good on production S18 due to rails jamming and broken bearings (there are 14 of them inside suspension system btw and as the first owners who has disassambled their wheels say half of the bearings are come in unsafisfactory condition). Thus, looks like there is no much advantage in production S18 having 3kg more weight than preproduction one. After Speedyfit feeback regarding wobbling Kingsong increased the thickness of upper pads. As the result noone likes the new ones and custom designs are already created. I've preorderded S18 and should get the one in about 3-5 days but looks like instead of the riding I will be doing disassambling and fixing the first week or two. So both wheels have a lot of realability and quality problems

 

 

Anyone got pictures/more info about what he is describing?

[B08AH]

Suspension is almost non-functional. There is so much resistance in it, it almost does not work. Only when you drop off a curb, it starts to move. It totally ignores small bumps. Most of ball bearings are broken from the start, there are spring washers instead of plain washers in some of the junctions, sliders are not exactly parallel, probably because the spacer is wider than it should be, and some other issues. KS fucked up really hard there. They might issue a repair kit with replacement parts to deal with those issues. At least i hope they do.

There are few guys in Russia trying to figure out how to fix all that on their own, may be they can jury-rig smth.

Suspension must be fixed one way or the other to function properly.

Edited August 17, 2020 by B08AH

[B08AH]

6 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Anyone got pictures/more info about what he is describing?

Broken silumin (after crash)

spring washer next to already broken bearing

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by B08AH

[Feynman]

5 hours ago, B08AH said:

Suspension is almost non-functional.

Mine works just fine.  You guys are too skinny in Russia.  

[Shield]

Wow, aluminum usually doesn't break like that. It looks more like cast iron to me. Sorry this happened to you.

[Planemo]

5 hours ago, B08AH said:

spring washer next to already broken bearing

 

Looks like a split rubber O ring to me? And how/why is the bearing broken? Looks like a normal bush with a few scuff marks?

[Feynman]

11 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Looks like a split rubber O ring to me? And how/why is the bearing broken? Looks like a normal bush with a few scuff marks?

Maybe.  Honestly it looks like a perfectly normal lock washer to me.  I guess I could take mine apart and see... but that sounds like work.

[fryman]

14 minutes ago, Feynman said:

Maybe.  Honestly it looks like a perfectly normal lock washer to me.  I guess I could take mine apart and see... but that sounds like work.

That's normal; look at the assembly video.

[eve]

20 hours ago, Ben Hatfield said:

random, but anyone ride this with staggered (uneven) pedal heights?  I don't see a reason to recommend it, but if anyone wanted an unsymmetrical feel, the S18 can surely provide it!

To be honest most people have one leg longer then the other so this might not be such a bad idea. 

 

[fbhb]

8 hours ago, Planemo said:

Looks like a split rubber O ring to me? And how/why is the bearing broken? Looks like a normal bush with a few scuff marks?

All the active pivot points of the S18 suspension have sealed bearings pressed into them, as can clearly be seen in some of the photos below from owners uploads and the spring washer is also shown being fitted in screenshots I made from the King Song S18 Assembly video. 

This is definitely a spring washer being used and unfortunately it's being clamped directly against the bearing race surface/seal area leading to, IMHO, possible/inevitable damage and at the very least could very well be the reason some New owners have complained of the S18 suspension feeling stiff/stuck/difficult to move. 

A machined steel spacer or spigot/shouldered spacer etc. should have been used here to safely clamp each pivot point where a bearing is situated!  A hardened spring steel washer clamped against a bearing surface/bearing seal is most definitely an engineering No No!

The very fact that proper bearings are used at all pivot points should mean that the linkage should move very freely indeed, but the use lock/spring washers against bearing surfaces will definitely be working against that freedom of movement or worse causing damage/failure of the bearings!!! 

I have been in contact with King Song directly via Facebook to raise their awareness of this issue and hopefully to have it rectified for future production and if that does actually happen, maybe the necessary parts could be sent out to 1st batch owners.  I really do hope so, this is quite an easy fix but should really never have happened in the first place! 

Unfortunately, all the EUC manufacturers currently seem to be dropping the ball when it comes down to some of the small details/quality control and their choice of components and materials.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by fbhb