King Song S18 Discussion

[redfoxdude]

2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Update: 

1) I added a small thin washer to the outside of the joint that was pictured and circled above. In my case the two suspension arms were not touching or grinding. ( just need to remove the large screw with large washer, place small thin washer that is smaller than the hole in the arm between the shoulder of the shoulder bolt  and the large washer.) 
2 ) removes slider wipers and sprayed proper oil in the top. Re installed wipers. 
3) adjusted bottom width of sliders by experimenting with the block width. Removed/ milled 0.010 inch from block and added shims. 
 

Results - night and day. I think that it might complete with the V11 on rough surfaces now while blowing the V11 away on the big bumps. 

Awesome! I already saw a huge improvement after doing just the first two things you mentioned. Though, I noticed some slight rubbing on the left side, I'll have to see about shimming the pivot joints or something.

For (3), are you talking about that little block that's wedged in there, that King Song described as a limiter to prevent over-tightening of the bolts? I'm very curious to see how much better I can get the suspension performance. 🙂

[RockyTop]

12 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:
For (3), are you talking about that little block that's wedged in there, that King Song described as a limiter to prevent over-tightening of the bolts? I'm very curious to see how much better I can get the suspension performance. 🙂

Yes, I wanted to be able to adjust in both directions so I started by making the block 0.010 - 0.015 smaller.  

[FinRider]

I removed the pedals with hangers today and shot some videos of the carriage slider. What a difference! Yesterday we could barely move it with two guys pulling on the wheel and now I could easily move it myself. See video.
 This proves that the block between the pipes put outward pressure on the guide railing pipes and cause the friction. 
I reattached the pedals with the hangers and left the block out. Movement is still free and the suspension has really come alive. 
I will still put in the bearing bushings between the pivot arms tomorrow. 

[FinRider]

This is the block that I left out. It is just wedged in between the pedal hanger, can be removed by just tapping it out, I just wanted to see how the adjustment for the pedals work and I could only see 2 positions... default and 1 notch higher. 
 

[fryman]

Did KS give a reason why the block is there?

[redfoxdude]

1 minute ago, fryman said:

Did KS give a reason why the block is there?

Yes, they said it was to prevent over-tightening of the 4 clamping bolts. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by redfoxdude

[FinRider]

1 minute ago, redfoxdude said:

Yes, they said it was to prevent over-tightening of the 4 clamping bolts. 

I cranked down with all my might and the some without the block... no noticable side effect that I could see

[eve]

Lol. When the development of a wheel happens on a forum and not in a factory.  I really hope someone will post a guide on how to fix the suspension since im a potato at doing this stuff. 

Im still thinking about dual piston suspension and if will hit the frame or not. 

The Coilshock can be very likely installed backwards since its oil but dont know about the air one.

Edited August 20, 2020 by eve

[Feynman]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

I removed the pedals with hangers today and shot some videos of the carriage slider. What a difference! Yesterday we could barely move it with two guys pulling on the wheel and now I could easily move it myself. See video.
 This proves that the block between the pipes put outward pressure on the guide railing pipes and cause the friction. 
I reattached the pedals with the hangers and left the block out. Movement is still free and the suspension has really come alive. 
I will still put in the bearing bushings between the pivot arms tomorrow

Do you have any pressure in the shock?  No way I could do that 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

What were the reasons again to buy a KS Wheel?

Design?

Quality ? 

Service ? 

Well, I am speechless (not really, I just don't want to spoil the mood of the buyers even more) 

I no longer see any quality or service. 

Neither here, nor on the official Facebook page are questions answered. 

I'm glad that I ordered an MSP instead of an S18, because it can't be worse than this. 

Only the design is unsurpassed.

I think KingSong is losing a lot of customers right now and they can be lucky that at least fanboys are still enthusiastic instead of banging the wheel around their ears.

[Feynman]

I like the wheel.  Am I the only one?  The suspension makes a big difference on my bumpy ass gravel road out of the box without any mods.  I'm going to follow the suggestions of people here and try to make it even better.

[eve]

I think most people here like the wheel but its a bit disappointing that this needs to be fixed. It really shows that S18 was rushed.

 

[Feynman]

I saw the same conversations when the 16X launched, but it turned out to be a great wheel

[HerotheCat]

6 hours ago, FinRider said:

This is the block that I left out. It is just wedged in between the pedal hanger, can be removed by just tapping it out, I just wanted to see how the adjustment for the pedals work and I could only see 2 positions... default and 1 notch higher. 
 

I was informed via email from Kingsong that there are three positions for the pedal. The lower position does leave one side's screw in a slot and not in a hole, but since they are not there for support, it's fine to use.

To be clear. Are you saying you simply removed those blocks and the suspension improved that much? Have you made other alterations?

Sorry if you're previously stated this, this thread is getting quite long.

[fbhb]

14 hours ago, FinRider said:

Do you have more information on what exactly was done to achieve this?

I don't have any further information on how he personally achieved this other than the video that I posted here, as the video is I believe from a Russian guy that posted it on the King Song Telegram.  All that can be clearly seen in the video is that he has removed the Flat washer from the side of the middle pivot, so that the bolt is acting on the bearing race (I would imagine that All the other Flat washers and definitely the Spring washers have been removed and discarded too!). 

At this stage, I am still waiting to get my S18, but I have recently made several suggestions/directions directly to King Song from an engineering point of view to try and explain how bearings and proper bearing spacers should have been correctly installed from the outset. The bearing inner races need to be clamped by correctly machined bearing spacers/head of the machined bolts, where necessary!

I just really hope that they take on board All the feedback from the various sources they have been contacted by to properly rectify, what is just poor assembly practice by not including in the design All the correct components necessary to make the linkage work smoothly.  Added to that, It is very plain that there needs to be a dedicated assembly worker putting All the components together, as shown in the video, to confirm/guarantee that each wheel actually has a smooth action to the linkage once fully built up! 

I can confirm that if my S18 arrives before the assembly method has been amended and the New parts fitted to wheels still in production, then I will be completely stripping it down to make All the necessary bearing spacer/slider set up mods myself!

@Jack King Song said: "From recent feedback we are looking at improving the suspension movement. King Song team appreciates everyones feedback and we are investigating and testing the best method resulting in the best suspension ride possible.

We'll keep everyone posted in the next few days!" 

So lets all hope it proves to be fruitful to get the Full potential out of what really should be a great suspension system, considering we are only at the first generation stage! 

Edited August 21, 2020 by fbhb

[FinRider]

2 hours ago, HerotheCat said:

was informed via email from Kingsong that there are three positions for the pedal. The lower position does leave one side's screw in a slot and not in a hole, but since they are not there for support, it's fine to use.

To be clear. Are you saying you simply removed those blocks and the suspension improved that much? Have you made other alterations?

Sorry if you're previously stated this, this thread is getting quite long.

1. There are two holes on one side and 2 holes + the slot on the other. The side that has 2 holes has the top hole not used and the screw in the top position on the hanger. If you move it one notch down, then there is no screw to secure that side to the shell.
2. in essence yes, removing the blocks freed up the movement in my video, (no pressure in the shock), the only thing i did prior to this was to place a smaller washer on under the big washer that holds the pivot arm where the brackets meet, see my pic in the earlier post with the red circle. I also used spray lube (silicone this time)

[FinRider]

7 hours ago, buell47 said:

What were the reasons again to buy a KS Wheel?

Design?

Quality ? 

Service ? 

Well, I am speechless (not really, I just don't want to spoil the mood of the buyers even more) 

I no longer see any quality or service. 

Neither here, nor on the official Facebook page are questions answered. 

I'm glad that I ordered an MSP instead of an S18, because it can't be worse than this. 

Only the design is unsurpassed.

I think KingSong is losing a lot of customers right now and they can be lucky that at least fanboys are still enthusiastic instead of banging the wheel around their ears.

I attribute all the problems to a rushed design of the suspension and their poor understanding of how suspension / bearings work as they probably have no experience with this. The design itself seems fine, the finishing just isn’t there yet.

Anyone who buys a 1st batch EUC should be well aware of these challenges and should be prepared to make adjustments, alterations and modifications on their own. If not, then wait a year or so until the kinks are worked out.

the same applies to the V11. Three 1st batch wheels came to finland. One has a blown board and one needs a motor replacement. Inmotion did seem to get the suspension right though!
 

 

[fbhb]

2 hours ago, FinRider said:

in essence yes, removing the blocks freed up the movement in my video, (no pressure in the shock), the only thing i did prior to this was to place a smaller washer on under the big washer that holds the pivot arm where the brackets meet, see my pic in the earlier post with the red circle. I also used spray lube (silicone this time)

@Jack King Song uploaded this short video a little while ago today, as a help to improving suspension travel.  So this small tweak can be classed as an Officially Approved modification for the sliders Only, but in NO way fixes the pivot point issues. 

There should be more to come soon from King Song, but not sure if All the suspension issues will be addressed to my personal satisfaction!  As I stated previously, I am more than willing to rectify all these concerns properly myself when my S18 finally arrives, should it be necessary!

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by fbhb

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

13 minutes ago, FinRider said:

I attribute all the problems to a rushed design of the suspension and their poor understanding of how suspension / bearings work as they probably have no experience with this. The design itself seems fine, the finishing just isn’t there yet.

Anyone who buys a 1st batch EUC should be well aware of these challenges and should be prepared to make adjustments, alterations and modifications on their own. If not, then wait a year or so until the kinks are worked out.

the same applies to the V11. Three 1st batch wheels came to finland. One has a blown board and one needs a motor replacement. Inmotion did seem to get the suspension right though!
 

 

That's the theory. I also have a 1st batch 16X and even a year later nothing has changed except the firmware and a new control board. Instead of improving a existing Wheel, a new wheel is already being put together in a hurry.

This will happen with the S18 in exactly the same way that the end customer is responsible, I am sure.

[redfoxdude]

1 hour ago, fbhb said:

@Jack King Song uploaded this short video a little while ago today, as a help to improving suspension travel.  So this small tweak can be classed as an Officially Approved modification for the sliders Only, but in NO way fixes the pivot point issues. 

I went ahead and removed the little blocks, too. (I did loosen the bolts to do it though 🤫) The suspension got a little smoother, still. I really did like the S18 before, but what a difference, wow! I still need to improve the pivots with some proper spacers and whatnot, but I'm very happy with how it's coming together 🙂

[fbhb]

14 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

I went ahead and removed the little blocks, too. (I did loosen the bolts to do it though 🤫) The suspension got a little smoother, still. I really did like the S18 before, but what a difference, wow!

Yes, according to a conversation I had with @Jack King Song on Telegram and the current topic on there right now, the block was only supposed to be used during assembly to stop the clamping bolts from being over tightened and then they can be removed.  However, if left in place there can be a tendency for the slider tubes to become out of parallel (basically causing a wider dimension at the bottom) which in turn can lead to the sliders jamming/getting stuck at the end of their stroke. 

He has also just stated that the issue with the bearings is being looked into and a solution has been found!

Edited August 21, 2020 by fbhb

[redfoxdude]

On 8/20/2020 at 11:24 PM, fbhb said:

Yes, according to a conversation I had with @Jack King Song on Telegram and the current topic on there right now, the block was only supposed to be used during assembly to stop the clamping bolts from being over tightened and then they can be removed.  However, if left in place there can be a tendency for the slider tubes to become out of parallel (basically causing a wider dimension at the bottom) which in turn can lead to the sliders jamming/getting stuck at the end of their stroke. 

He has also just stated that the issue with the bearings is being looked into and a solution has been found!

Very interesting. Maybe they should invest in some torque wrenches... 🤷‍♂️😅
And that's good news! Hopefully just some spacers or something simple. Luckily I don't mind working on my toys 😛

Edited August 23, 2020 by redfoxdude

[fbhb]

5 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

And that's good news! Hopefully just a some spacers or something simple. Luckily I don't mind working on my toys 😛

Yep, pretty sure they have taken on board the suggestions regarding correct bearing spacers and locking methods.  I'm also more than happy to open up any of my wheels and with the S18 will most likely be looking to change the stock tire anyway!

Edited August 21, 2020 by fbhb

[eve]

Im looking forward to making my Suspension perfect. After that imma buy a good shock.

Can you let us updated if you see any ecodrift updates on this issue? Thanks! @fbhb

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by eve

[mrelwood]

 

3 hours ago, FinRider said:

the same applies to the V11. Three 1st batch wheels came to finland. One has a blown board and one needs a motor replacement. Inmotion did seem to get the suspension right though!

For perspective, the V11 motor issue happened to a hard core off-roader, and is the only one we are aware of of the hundreds of V11s shipped. Inmotion started investigating immediately, and has already reached out to the motor supplier.

The rider with the blown board is much heavier than an average rider, and as a hard core off-roader as well had already blown 3 boards on self-balancing vehicles before this. A new board was shipped under warranty, which is being delivered exactly 1 week after reaching out to Inmotion. I now know of two blown boards in total on production V11s, the other being caused by a battery failure.

The bearings on all future V11s were replaced due to a single bearing issue.

 

As far as we know, every single S18 that has left the factory has:

• Faulty bearing assembly on every suspension joint
• Over-tightening on the bearing joints
• Bearings having been pushed into painted holes, leaving chunks of paint at the bearings
• Assembly blocks left in, which jam the slider tubes

Every single point above alone would disturb or prevent the suspension from working. In addition, the exposed motor cable is susceptible of being worn by a hard edge of the shell, and numerous units have the tire dragging on the fender as well as the fender dragging on the shell.

 

The only issue on all V11s has been the weak saddle attachment points. Which I often forget to screw back anyway, since they do bear load or affect riding in any way. They are being strengthened with metal inserts, and IM has confirmed that the warranty covers all 1st batch units in this regard as well.

 

Comparing a fraction of a percent to a 100 % failure rate is not "the same". I feel very sorry for all S18 owners, since this is an all time low on functional 1st batch EUC issues, which was not expected. Most owners will not be able to fix their new wheels themselves, causing huge trouble due to shipping limitations on batteries for individuals all over the world.