King Song S18 Discussion

[Dogtaoist]

 

 

 

This is a huge upgrade imo, makes this wheel so much more comfortable to manage at all speeds. This is my first attempt, so I'll clean it up more when I see how long this material lasts. The upper element is now much more comfortable in every way. It's easy to use, the 3M tape is the best available and it comes with this material, which is just corner guard foam from Amazon and is superior in every way thus far. I have over 300 miles on the wheel and 30 miles with the new padding. The last 30 miles have the been the most enjoyable by far.

[Beachboy]

15 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Just so all readers understand: While good quality bearings do have a better performance in general, they are not the part that is preventing the S18 suspension from functioning. The middle pivot of the upper arm for example is tightened very hard, linkage arm against another. And the connecting bolt itself rests tightly against the outer arm. The bearings themselves don't get to do much else than to keep the bolt at the center of the hole.

Modifying the hinges to take proper usage of the original bearings would bring ten times more gain than just replacing the bearings could ever do. I'm hoping that the smart and experienced forumeers will come up with and share practical solutions to fix the excessive friction. Waiting for KingSong's solution doesn't feel like the best of moves at the moment.

I’m sorry just a thought, I haven’t received my S18 yet, but got some mind for the middle suspension linkage, I read somewhere that the block that KS suggest to remove makes the suspension arms kind of bending when installed, so that it will cause frictions & tightening, what if we trim the block with sand paper on both sides so that the middle suspension arms bearing holes align perfectly that will make the suspension move smooth & free, while the block also act as a leverage for the frame body and the suspension..

but in the other hand if the blocks removed thus the suspension still cannot move freely, then you will need slightly bigger block in place or you can just add up something to the sides of blocks until the suspension can move nicely.

 

[redfoxdude]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

How the S18 suspension is put together is not about a failure of a few. It’s about how they are all built.

Yawn... The point is that those parts of the joint shouldn’t drag on eachother at all. I know without measuring that yours’ do. Because that’s how they are all built.

Sure. How much force does it take to push and pull the stock system from end to end if the shock is removed? I don’t need to guess, we actually tried. And we wrote about it here.

Um, mine wasn't so stiff out of the box, and I could easily move the suspension by myself. There was stiction, yes, and I nearly eliminated it now with some TLC, but it wasn't "nearly stuck." You handled one that was on the worse end of the spectrum, but not all of them are as stiff like that, as you claim.

That said, mine is now smooth as butter, super cush, and I'm very excited to take her for a spin today 🙂

Edited August 23, 2020 by redfoxdude

[FinRider]

46 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

Um, mine wasn't so stiff out of the box, and I could easily move the suspension by myself. There was stiction, yes, and I nearly eliminated it now with some TLC, but it wasn't "nearly stuck." You handled one that was on the worse end of the spectrum, but not all of them are as stiff like that, as you claim.

That said, mine is now smooth as butter, super cush, and I'm very excited to take her for a spin today 🙂

Yeah, it was mine that @mrelwood has experience with and it was so stiff that we could not get it to move when we pulled with all our might in opposite directions. the main culprit was the misalignment of the slider tubes and a minor culprit was the stiffness of the pivot arms. 
I did not just tap out the block in the pedal hangers, I removed the pedal hangers completely as I wanted to also make sure that the suspension was moving as smooth as possible. Once that was ensured, then I put the padal hangers back without the block and ensured that it was still as smooth as without them as the pedal hangers themselves can pull the slider bars out of alignment. I also put a bearing spacer in between the pivot arms, loosened the through bolt and left it barely snug instead. 
 

Now the suspension is very smooth and I am very happy with it. 
 

I still need to tear the wheel apart though as my inner fender is crooked and rubs on the tire when turning right and on the left inner casing when the suspension is working. I may be able to straighten it, if not then I will ask for a replacement. 

[FinRider]

On 8/20/2020 at 3:31 PM, fbhb said:

@Jack King Song  The suspension on the Left has been worked on by it's owner to vastly improve the severe friction still present with the out of the factory set up shown on the Right!!!  This is how the end result should have been if the correct engineering assembly methods had been used to get the very best out of the linkage arrangement. 

This huge improvement has more than likely been achieved by using correctly dimensioned bearing spacers to clamp only against the bearings inner race, instead of randomly placed flat washers and even worse, spring washers that were previously binding the pivot points. 

Careful attention also needs to be paid on the assembly line to making sure the slider tubes are kept as parallel as possible, with no twisting when clamping up the pedal mounting frames.  Hopefully we will soon see if King Song themselves can achieve at least this level of effortless movement in the improvements that they are currently working on.

 

This is what we want to achieve. I will check how mine moves when I tear it down. 
 

@fbhb do you have any info on what the ecodrift guys did to alter the factory setup to achieve this smooth movement? Notice that they have the pedal hangers in place. This is important as they might also cause the slider tubes out of alignment. 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by FinRider

[redfoxdude]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

This is what we want to achieve. I will check how mine moves when I tear it down. 
 

@fbhb do you have any info on what the ecodrift guys did to alter the factory setup to achieve this smooth movement? Notice that they have the pedal hangers in place. This is important as they might also cause the slider tubes out of alignment. 

Mine was almost as smooth as ecodrift's before I put in spacers in to eliminate rubbing at the pivots on the sliders and the pivots at the top of the frame, and after, it behaved like in ecodrift's video. I also used Finish Line Stanchion Fluoro Oil on the tubes (and a drop or 2 on the pivots) to get things nice and slick. Stuff is nice and thin and slippery! A little went a long way.

Edited August 23, 2020 by redfoxdude

[Mark Wilson]

@mrelwood, any chance that you will be able to test out @FinRider's S18 again now that he has improved the suspension? I am curious to see what you think of it now.

[Feynman]

What can I say, you guys were right...

If someone were going to write a case study on how not to use bearings, this would be it.  Why, Kingsong?  Why?

[EUC123]

Hm... I was going to preorder my KS18 but it looks like I should wait for a few more batches before upgrading from my Inmotion V8.

[Feynman]

Chinesium shite.  Fell apart when it came out.  Yeah...  I'm going to have to replace all bearings, the bolts and barrel posts (already two have f'd up threads), add some PTFE bushings or something.  Maybe I'll replace the bearings with round PTFE spacer, I dunno.  It's bad.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Feynman

[Feynman]

Two bearings were shoved in this hole.  Both disintegrated.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Feynman
spelling

[Feynman]

Didn't Kingsong say they were changing to steel parts for the linkage.  This sure looks, smells and tastes like aluminum to me.

[redfoxdude]

12 minutes ago, Feynman said:

Didn't Kingsong say they were changing to steel parts for the linkage.  This sure looks, smells and tastes like aluminum to me.

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

That is surprising. Perhaps they meant the sliding carriages after all?

No, this wasn't made super clear, but what they changed to steel is the sliders. Jack also finally stated this directly in the Telegram a just few days ago.

Edited August 23, 2020 by redfoxdude

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Mark Wilson said:

@mrelwood, any chance that you will be able to test out @FinRider's S18 again now that he has improved the suspension? I am curious to see what you think of it now.

Last I tried it, it had the blocks removed, small washers added, and ample lubrification in all joints and the slider tubes. It was much much more sensitive than the original, and had I not ridden the V11, I would've praised his S18's suspension behaviour through the roof. But knowing how sensitive an EUC suspension can and should be, I know that there is still a long way to go. IIRC he has since added at least the low friction bushings, so it should be better still. I'm sure I'll get to try it at some point, unless my posts have annoyed him enough... 

8 minutes ago, Feynman said:

Didn't Kingsong say they were changing to steel parts for the linkage.  This sure looks, smells and tastes like aluminum to me.

That is surprising. Perhaps they meant the sliding carriages after all?

[Feynman]

49 minutes ago, EUC123 said:

Hm... I was going to preorder my KS18 but it looks like I should wait for a few more batches before upgrading from my Inmotion V8.

Really these are relatively easy things to address.  It's a shame you have to completely disassemble the wheel to get to these parts, though.  It's also a shame that we have to fix them when we just paid $2k for a brand new wheel.  Yeah, I guess I'd wait for KS to fix it on their end if I had to do it over again.

[Rehab1]

26 minutes ago, Feynman said:

Chinesium shite.  Fell apart when it came out.  Yeah...  I'm going to have to replace all bearings, the bolts and barrel posts (already two have f'd up threads), add some PTFE bushings or something.  Maybe I'll replace the bearings with round PTFE spacer, I dunno.  It's bad.

Damn your biting the bullet for a lot of us!  The bearing race just fell apart upon removal? Disgusting!

 @Jack King Song hopefully your engineers are working on a solution as the suspension components used during the assembly are totally unacceptable!

[Feynman]

17 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Damn your biting the bullet for a lot of us!  The bearing race just fell apart upon removal? Disgusting!

No worries.  I'm OCD, so I'd do it regardless.  There are six bearings total.  All six of them fell apart when removed.  I could see chips out of the races on three of them while they were in the linkage before I touched them.  I'd wager that all of them cracked when installed at KS factory.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Feynman
I can't count

[Rehab1]

21 minutes ago, Feynman said:

I'd wager that all of them cracked when installed at KS factory.

I hope Jack is listening!! This sucks!

Have you had time to research compatible  replacements?  

[Feynman]

The bearings in the linkage connected to the sliders are in much better shape.  Maybe the lock washers raunched tight against the seals on the lower linkage bearings caused the others to fail?

Edited August 24, 2020 by Feynman

[Feynman]

8 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Have you had time to research compatible  replacements?  

 I measure an OD of exactly 3/4", an ID of just under 7/16" and thickness of almost exactly 0.2".   @FinRider is correct; they're 10x19x5mm (ID,OD,thickness); which seems to be a common size; unfortunately not the standard skateboard bearing, though.   I'm thinking of:

- Replacing all the bearings with high quality ones of same size

- If I can find some speed washers with ID of 10mm and OD of 15 or 16mm, I'll add those next to the bearings to keep force on the inner race.  That's a weird size, though, so not hopeful.  There are some copper ones, but not sure how copper would hold up.

- Replacing all of the bolts and binding posts with good quality stainless ones.  The binding posts are 10mm OD and I'm guess the bolt is standard m10 (correct me if I'm wrong).  I'll post a link for these when I find some that I think might work.

- I ordered some PTFE washers (3/4 x 1/2 x 1/32"; OD, ID, thickness) to go between the linkage to slider and linkage to linkage connections.  The ID is a little big, but I can't find 10mm ones. https://www.ebay.com/itm/392789577456

- Going to cut down the spacers on the shock connectors a bit and add a PTFE spacer.  I got some thrust bearings, but they'd be exposed, get dirt between the bearings and races, and probably fail quickly.

 

All of that said, I'm a scientist, not an engineer; so any advice from an actual engineer is welcome and appreciated.

[Rehab1]

31 minutes ago, Feynman said:

The bearings in the linkage connected to the sliders are in much better shape.  Maybe the lock washers raunched tight against the seals on the lower linkage bearings caused the others to fail?

After seeing your bearings this lock washer fiasco has changed my mind about ripping into my S18. I was going to wait for a KS solution but now realize there are no quick fixes to resolve this matter other than follow your lead. 

[eve]

Whew. Seems like the combination of paint on bearings a overtightenet screws pretty much destroyed those bearings. 

Wouldnt something like this be better or nah? 

Edited August 24, 2020 by eve

[Electric Dreams]

On 8/23/2020 at 12:18 AM, Feynman said:

Does anyone know if Jack said the block (he told us to remove) needs to be in place when tightening the pedal hanger assembly back onto the sliders; then tap it out again?  I guess this is to keep things square when clamping on the pedal hanger?

If you are experiencing suspension travel issues you can knock out the block without loosening the screws. 

The block prevents people from over tightening the base and causing the lower battery base to bend inwards. 

On 8/23/2020 at 12:18 AM, Feynman said:

Does anyone know if Jack said the block (he told us to remove) needs to be in place when tightening the pedal hanger assembly back onto the sliders; then tap it out again?  I guess this is to keep things square when clamping on the pedal hanger?

If you are experiencing suspension travel issues you can knock out the block without loosening the screws. 

The block prevents people from over tightening the base and causing the lower battery base to bend inwards. 

[Electric Dreams]

On 8/22/2020 at 5:43 AM, Mark Wilson said:

Check out @Hsiang's review of the S18. It shows that while the cosmetic side panels may not be the most durable, the internal structure of the wheel is. Also, at 12:20 he says the app has been updated to allow the lean cutoff angle to be adjusted? Is this true? It's the first I'm hearing of it. If so, that would be awesome!

 

 

 

On 8/22/2020 at 7:17 AM, fbhb said:

As far as I know, the Android app is supposed to be getting upgraded and being made available through the Play Store shortly.  Jack has mentioned on Telegram, that there is always a hold up with Google authorizing apps on the Play Store, so users need to be patient!  I cannot comment on the iOS equivalent, as I'm not and NEVER will be an Apple user!

 

The newest consumer app has the function however does not save every time, it will work but needs some fiddling around. Our APP engineers are working on it. 

 

Google Play app is up, I will post an update. 

On 8/22/2020 at 10:10 AM, eve said:

I though i was asking too much when i mentioned 60 angle.  70 will be amazing. 

No fears of cutout on tight track turns. This is a necessity on a wheel like this! 

You guys ask, I deliver. 
Even though its on the app, the command does not fully send through right now, it's being refined and we'll update both android and ios 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Jack King Song

[Electric Dreams]

15 hours ago, FinRider said:

Wow, that looks way better than mine!

i will fix it when i tear down the wheel to fix my rubbing fender.

You can place a piece of fabric and using a rubber mallet or the plastic of part of the screw to hammer down the motor cable to ensure its snug against the slider. Due to the metal used the metal motor cable stays at an angle so this should help keep it down.