King Song S18 Discussion

[FinRider]

1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

OK yes I think you have too much sag.  I think its because using the block to inflate it in the compressed position then decompressing you end up with roughly half the pressure you think you have (upper chamber).  For me to get my blue rubber band down that far I have to jump off a 18" curb (there is one nearby here).  I can't get mine that far down by bunny hopping and normal curbs. 

Also note that you can lower your pedals if you like a lower pedal position while having more travel in your shock (a reason for getting an S18 rather than a V11). 

I dont think the sag is too much. The problem is more likely with a binding suspension. 
 

sag will drop you further down. However, i belive the problem here is that the suspension does not return to the starting position after compression, which has nothing to do with the sag. 
 

what is your rebound set to? This will have a huge effect on the return. Try it out with a 0 setting (full counter clockwise).

also, do you have the block removed from the pedal hanger?

Edited August 28, 2020 by FinRider

[Elliott Reitz]

1 hour ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Ok - check this out...

 

Note the shock travel is 1/2 way down in ColoradoQuattro's video thumbnail with him just standing on.  To me that looks like too much sag.  Why?  Well next my video demonstrates what happens to the pressure when using the block instead of elbows.  Since I have elbows, its easy to demonstrate.  I just had to use a 2" large binder clip in lieu of the block.

57 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

OK here's definitive result of block vs no block shock inflation results.

Highlights:

1. Block vs no-block: Inflated to 200/100 with the block results in 150/150 when the block is removed. Increasing the upper chamber back to 200 increases the lower to 175. see 0:30 to 0:59

2. The removal of the pump lower chamber drops about 1/3 of its pressure due to a very small volume chamber. see 2:30

Corrections to my narration:

0:30 to 0:59 the lower chamber rises from 100 to 150 when the block is removed. I incorrectly said "the lower chamber doesn't look like it changed very much". Actually it did.

 

 

25 minutes ago, FinRider said:

I dont think the sag is too much. The problem is more likely with a binding suspension.

sag will drop you further down. However, i belive the problem here is that the suspension does not return to the starting posission after compression, which has nothing to do with the sag.

what is your rebound set to? This will have a huge effect on the return. Try it out with a 0 setting (full counter clockwise).

also, do you have the block removed from the pedal hanger?

Other than disagreeing about sag - per above commentary, I do also wonder about the rebound wheel setting (full counter clockwise = pushed forward with right hand from behind wheel).  My video proves he's only setting it to about 100 psi after pumping to 150 then removing the block, while his lower chamber will rise.  So he will end up with more in the lower chamber than upper.   No wonder its got visible sag... looks like its not even inflated in his other video of him riding it. 

 

[ColoradoQuattro]

Rebound is set all the way to fast...

So, just checked the pressures and topped off.  The upper chamber, filled to 250+, with the block, was at 185, give or take.  The lower chamber was at about 100.  I forced the shock into as compressed a position as I could and sat on it, and topped it off to 275/200 and gave it a bounce.  Definitely different.  Not necessarily better, but different for sure.. So from there, I did a little messing about and now have it at a confirmed, no block, 250/125.  Of course, it's also started to really rain for the first time in about 2 months, so it'll be a few minutes before I do more than jump up and down on it to test, but I will let you guys know how it goes.

Thanks so much for all the feedback!

[Elliott Reitz]

13 minutes ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Rebound is set all the way to fast...

So, just checked the pressures and topped off.  The upper chamber, filled to 250+, with the block, was at 185, give or take.  The lower chamber was at about 100.  I forced the shock into as compressed a position as I could and sat on it, and topped it off to 275/200 and gave it a bounce.  Definitely different.  Not necessarily better, but different for sure.. So from there, I did a little messing about and now have it at a confirmed, no block, 250/125.  Of course, it's also started to really rain for the first time in about 2 months, so it'll be a few minutes before I do more than jump up and down on it to test, but I will let you guys know how it goes.

Thanks so much for all the feedback!

Since you're weight is less than mine (I'm 200... If i remember right you said you're about 150 lbs)... I think you've now gone to the other extreme.  For me my max no-block pressure good for 2' jump-offs is 230/150.  And normally I run about 200/150 (which per my vid results in 200/100 after removing the pump because the lower chamber volume is so small). 

PS:  Thanks to your vid and under-inflation problems I actually did the block/no-block comparison.  Fully compressed there appeared about 3" space and the blocks are only 2".  That's why the ratio of decompressed to block-compessed is 0.75 (eg: 150:200) rather than 0.5. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Elliott Reitz
150:200

[ColoradoQuattro]

7 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Since you're weight is less than mine (I'm 200... If i remember right you said you're about 150 lbs)... I think you've now gone to the other extreme.  For me my max no-block pressure good for 2' jump-offs is 230/150.  And normally I run about 200/150 (which per my vid results in 200/100 after removing the pump because the lower chamber volume is so small). 

PS:  Thanks to your vid and under-inflation problems I actually did the block/no-block comparison.  Fully compressed there appeared about 3" space and the blocks are only 2".  That's why the ratio of decompressed to block-compessed is 0.75 (eg: 200 to 150) rather than 0.5. 

Thanks for that info..  I will let you know how it goes.. At this point, I'm just trying to bookend this thing.. I realize that I will end up somewhere in the middle.  Really just want to see what the other side of the coin is like!

One other note...  I do not have the Oh-fish-all KingSong approved universal fitting block (TM) with me, so I used a wood spacer block I use for a variety of home woodworking projects...  Fits the width perfectly, and the height sits exactly at 2.5", so splitting your split difference here exactly.

Sun's coming out again, so more to come shortly.

Edited August 28, 2020 by ColoradoQuattro

[Dave Robert]

https://youtu.be/gpo-AwuUXz0

[Mark Wilson]

9 hours ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Ok - check this out...

 

In terms of suspension travel, that looks much better to me (maybe too much sag but considering you're probably not doing any serious drops, it might be about right). Though it does look like it could be binding a bit too much. Have you removed the spacer block from the pedal hanger?

[ColoradoQuattro]

1 hour ago, Mark Wilson said:

In terms of suspension travel, that looks much better to me (maybe too much sag but considering you're probably not doing any serious drops, it might be about right). Though it does look like it could be binding a bit too much. Have you removed the spacer block from the pedal hanger?

What's a pedal hangar?

 

 

lol..  j/k...  Yeah.. Haven't had a chance to ride it again yet, but will tomorrow.

[Mark Wilson]

2 hours ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

What's a pedal hangar?

 

 

lol..  j/k...  Yeah.. Haven't had a chance to ride it again yet, but will tomorrow.

 

[Elliott Reitz]

6 hours ago, Mark Wilson said:

 

I doubt removing the block makes ANY difference.

An easy way to test the theory is to remove the valve stems from the shock and move the wheel through its travel.  If the block matters it would be getting stuck when nearly at the top of the travel (where the pedal hanger gets closest to the slider).  Even without removing the valve stems, just deflating it should move enough to confirm its getting stuck when extended.  And by the time its at the compressed end of the travel any misalignment would be much less of an issue. OK here's the proof the block removal doesn't help anything.  Its just stiff like there's a lot of friction from the sliders.

Note this is the same ####ing guy that introduced the use of the block for shock inflation without discussing the pressure change effect when the block is removed.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Elliott Reitz
correction, + video proof

[Mark Wilson]

1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I doubt removing the block makes ANY difference.

An easy way to test the theory is to remove the valve stems from the shock and move the wheel through its travel.  If the block matters it would be getting stuck when nearly at the top of the travel (where the pedal hanger gets closest to the slider).  Even without removing the valve stems, just deflating it should move enough to confirm its getting stuck when extended.  And by the time its at the compressed end of the travel any misalignment would be much less of an issue. OK here's the proof the block removal doesn't help anything.  Its just stiff like there's a lot of friction from the sliders.

I don't think that you should make the claim that removing the block won't improve any S18's. There have been several people who have removed the block and have found that it did improve the suspension on their wheel. Maybe removing the block didn't do much for your wheel but, as we have already seen, there are quite a few manufacturing inconsistencies between the wheels on the market. I'm guessing for some, removing this block does in fact make a noticeable difference in the suspension travel of their wheel. That being said, I don't have an S18 myself and I'm only using my best judgement based off what I've read and seen online. And I appreciate that you're showcasing what you have found with your wheel.

[Elliott Reitz]

4 minutes ago, Mark Wilson said:

I don't think that you should make the claim that removing the block won't improve any S18's. There have been several people who have removed the block and have found that it did improve the suspension on their wheel. Maybe removing the block didn't do much for your wheel but, as we have already seen, there are quite a few manufacturing inconsistencies between the wheels on the market. I'm guessing for some, removing this block does in fact make a noticeable difference in the suspension travel of their wheel. That being said, I don't have an S18 myself and I'm only using my best judgement based off what I've read and seen online. And I appreciate that you're showcasing what you have found with your wheel.

I'm finding it necessary to test the BS coming from KSI.  At least for the shock-inflation block, and now the pedal blocks.  The information has certainly been flawed. 

And in prior pages to this discussion people were even replacing bearings in the suspension parts.  Most aren't using the elbows on the shocks and that makes it hard to tell where the BS begins.  If I go further into suspension movement I may disconnect one end of the shock and see how it moves.  The resistance I'm seeing (per my vid) feels like even friction such as tight with 0-rings, in the fork-sliders and not any sort of bearing bushing or bolt tightness.  There certainly wasn't any sense of binding or getting stuck at the top, bottom, or mid-way.  So I hope anyone removing a block will test the motion before just doing it.  Same with replacement bearings.  Otherwise, they would probably be introducing a misalignment not solving one.  To be certain I would remove one end of the shock and see if it slides any easier too (the removed shock valves still have air resistance).

[Feynman]

9 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

And in prior pages to this discussion people were even replacing bearings in the suspension parts.  Most aren't using the elbows on the shocks and that makes it hard to tell where the BS begins.  If I go further into suspension movement I may disconnect one end of the shock and see how it moves.  The resistance I'm seeing (per my vid) feels like even friction such as tight with 0-rings, in the fork-sliders and not any sort of bearing bushing or bolt tightness.  There certainly wasn't any sense of binding or getting stuck at the top, bottom, or mid-way.  So I hope anyone removing a block will test the motion before just doing it.  Same with replacement bearings.  Otherwise, they would probably be introducing a misalignment not solving one.  To be certain I would remove one end of the shock and see if it slides any easier too (the removed shock valves still have air resistance).

I'm fat enough that I wasn't having a problem moving my suspension either.  However, when I took off the shock and saw how terrible the linkage connections were done I felt compelled to replace everything and do it right.  It might make no difference in performance for my fat arse, but my OCD demands I fix it.

[Elliott Reitz]

2 minutes ago, Feynman said:

I'm fat enough that I wasn't having a problem moving my suspension either.  However, when I took off the shock and saw how terrible the linkage connections were done I felt compelled to replace everything and do it right.  It might make no difference in performance for my fat arse, but my OCD demands I fix it.

When you took off the shock did you still have the even resistance through the travel?  If so, do you agree its likely in the tube-slider-O-Rings?  I do think that resistance is excessive and makes it much less fidelity for little bumps.  Sure the tire will absorb most of that anyway, but like you things that aren't done right can bug me... especially the things that effect the performance the most.  Like I'm ok with the bearings as long as they're not introducing major friction along the travel. 

[Feynman]

1 minute ago, Elliott Reitz said:

When you took off the shock did you still have the even resistance through the travel?  If so, do you agree its likely in the tube-slider-O-Rings?  I do think that resistance is excessive and makes it much less fidelity for little bumps.  Sure the tire will absorb most of that anyway, but like you things that aren't done right can bug me... especially the things that effect the performance the most.  Like I'm ok with the bearings as long as they're not introducing major friction along the travel. 

Actually, yes.  The linkage was very VERY (almost impossible) hard for me to move by hand with no shock - which shouldn't be the case.  I didn't really test the sliders with and without the block in place, but I understand the logic that it might push the rods out of parallel.  

I can say definitively that several of the bearings were cracked before I removed them.  Some had lock washers tightened hard against the seals, causing the bearings to bind.  

The real issue for me, though is just the poor design.  Regardless of the bearings, the linkage arm connections are raunched down super-tight and the linkage arms are binding against each other and the gray slider carriages.  No spacers, thrust bearings, or any other such parts were used.  

[dsd317]

Keep in mind that everyone's experience with the S18 will vary.  So removing the infamous "block" may/may not help with suspension movement.  One of the first things I'm going to do as soon as mine arrives is to remove the shock and inspect entire linkage and slider assemblies.  If all performs well and looks good, then I'll setup and ride and most importantly....HAVE FUN!!!

Here's an example of why/how everyone's experience will vary.  This person ordered 2 S18's and arrived with differences with the infamous "block":

 

[Elliott Reitz]

2 hours ago, Feynman said:

Actually, yes.  The linkage was very VERY (almost impossible) hard for me to move by hand with no shock - which shouldn't be the case.  I didn't really test the sliders with and without the block in place, but I understand the logic that it might push the rods out of parallel.  

I can say definitively that several of the bearings were cracked before I removed them.  Some had lock washers tightened hard against the seals, causing the bearings to bind.  

The real issue for me, though is just the poor design.  Regardless of the bearings, the linkage arm connections are raunched down super-tight and the linkage arms are binding against each other and the gray slider carriages.  No spacers, thrust bearings, or any other such parts were used.  

Ok so I removed the bottom pin from the shock and loosened the pins that hold the 2 suspension arms togeather.  It became just a little looser but still about 80% of the resistance is still there.  My impression of the 20% resistance removed is that the rubber bushings each side of the shock mounts are so damn tight they can't be moved even with pliers.  So I still have the impression that most of the resistance is in the sliders on the fork tubes.  I may try some WD-40 on them since I'm starting to wonder if they are just dry o-rings in there.  The dust caps lift easy enough... so off I go to buy some WD-40 now.

[redfoxdude]

23 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Ok so I removed the bottom pin from the shock and loosened the pins that hold the 2 suspension arms togeather.  It became just a little looser but still about 80% of the resistance is still there.  My impression of the 20% resistance removed is that the rubber bushings each side of the shock mounts are so damn tight they can't be moved even with pliers.  So I still have the impression that most of the resistance is in the sliders on the fork tubes.  I may try some WD-40 on them since I'm starting to wonder if they are just dry o-rings in there.  The dust caps lift easy enough... so off I go to buy some WD-40 now.

I really liked the result of stanchion oil on the sliders. WD-40 is a solvent, and makes a pretty poor lubricant, so I wouldn't recommend it.
Most of the friction in mine came from the sliders, and the upper and lower pivots. Almost no resistance on the other pivots after I took off the outer washers.

[Elliott Reitz]

6 hours ago, redfoxdude said:

I really liked the result of stanchion oil on the sliders. WD-40 is a solvent, and makes a pretty poor lubricant, so I wouldn't recommend it.
Most of the friction in mine came from the sliders, and the upper and lower pivots. Almost no resistance on the other pivots after I took off the outer washers.

Thanks.  I wil need to order some stanchion oil since there aren't any good sources nearby.  I just shot some WD-40 on it.   After lunch I may test it a bit more.

{+} Well bouncing on it its waaaay more responsive now! So that's affirmation that the sliders were dry rubber on metal.  WTF KS?  No lube on the forks?  I sprayed a little on the spacers along the axil each side laying over too... in case I might add a tiny bit of lube to the bearings in there.  I have the impression nothing was lubricated on this wheel. 

{++} Just got back from an 8.5 mile ride with Loki... did lots of grass and curb shots along the way.  The suspension was waaaaaaay softer feeling.  Nicer!  and it still absorbed the curb shots nicely.  I used 200/150 shock pressure.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Elliott Reitz
{+}{++}

[ColoradoQuattro]

FInally!  At long last!  The follow up to my weak ass shock testing and riding videos!

lol...

Saved some dope-ass tracks for this one though, and this is definitely my best video so far.

Rode this am on the 250/125 and it was pretty good.. Let a little air out - don't actually know how much...  It's very good.  Not night and day different, but very good.  

Anyway, without further ado...

 

[eve]

Can you stop riding with your handle not in place pls?  @ColoradoQuattro

[ColoradoQuattro]

26 minutes ago, eve said:

Can you stop riding with your handle not in place pls?  @ColoradoQuattro

Nope!  lol...  This thing already gets dropped like a bad habit... It's a real testament to the build quality actually - especially for this "flaky" handle!  Maybe one day, but not today... and probably not tomorrow either!

[Elliott Reitz]

4 hours ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

FInally!  At long last!  The follow up to my weak ass shock testing and riding videos!

lol...

Saved some dope-ass tracks for this one though, and this is definitely my best video so far.

Rode this am on the 250/125 and it was pretty good.. Let a little air out - don't actually know how much...  It's very good.  Not night and day different, but very good.  

Anyway, without further ado...

{video}

The height/sag looks about right.  Though it still looks stiff.  Have you lubricated the suspension slider tubes?  That made a big difference for me tonight.  Added to my endurance too, like I just did over 2 hours mostly at 4 mph with lots of grass along the way... its way more responsive since lubricating the tubes.

4 hours ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Nope!  lol...  This thing already gets dropped like a bad habit... It's a real testament to the build quality actually - especially for this "flaky" handle!  Maybe one day, but not today... and probably not tomorrow either!

I looks like you have it in the lift position(?).  Thus I'm guessing you've got the lift-handle function switched off in the software... right?

[RockyTop]

With the old software you can ride with the handle in the lift position as long as you stay below 15mph. It starts to lean forward around 15mph. You can get up to about 20mph before it becomes too difficult to ride.

[Elliott Reitz]

It occurs to me the pedal mount position directly impacts pressure setting with the block method.  This video (from prior post) was with the pedals in the lower position.  Those using the block with pedals in the upper position will have a yet-bigger effect (upper pressure drop) when releasing the block.

The lubricated sliders made a huge difference in the smaller bumps.  Way more responsive, and definitely more comfortable on grass. Curb shots were about the same. Also, here's my video from tonight's ride (8.5 miles with Loki, highlights on the video including the house I hope to rent at the beginning of it). 

{+} Some nice grass riding at 3:49.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Elliott Reitz