King Song S18 Discussion

[fbhb]

Just now, Duf said:

So another "easy" fix would be to remove that larger washer?

Yeah Duf, it just does not serve any purpose and actually binds that linkage point up!

[fbhb]

7 minutes ago, FinRider said:

I added a smaller washer under the big washer to attempt this, and it seems to have worked, but it is only a temporary fix.

I personally would remove it completely, especially if you have already put a smaller one that sits only on the inner race that the bolt can mate up against!

Also, you were correct when you said that we should try and keep all these posts to the S18 suspension overhaul thread!

Edited August 26, 2020 by fbhb

[Feynman]

This is just a guess, but to me it seems like the only purpose of the bearings and the washers on the linkage is to distribute the load from the bolt onto a wider area of the aluminum linkage arms.  Yeah, I guess it reduces friction of the barrel post rotating, but you still have the arm to arm and arm to body connections binding.  I wonder if the linkage arms failed at these points during some testing iteration without the bearings?

[LeGiroquoi]

Thanks Finn for all these info!

As for me removing the metal bloc worked the best for me. 

But one last thing. I feel like when i step on it it lowers a lot and stays down a lot. Not bringing me up after , so leaving me with not a lot of travel for absorbing bumps. 

It does work nice while jumping, as I preload the jump.

But I feel like I'm quite low otherwise.. I've put the shock to many levels. The one that works the best seems to be 180/60. I'm 170 pounds fully geared

Any idea on how to adjust the shock to pull me up a little?

Edited August 26, 2020 by Eric plam

[eve]

That 60 in the negative is too low. Most likely the reason why youre so low.

Just for comparison. Kujirolls settings at 150lbs is 180/150. Dont forget to set up your rebound knob so it isnt at the slowest.

I think his negative is bit too high but i think the low pressure in your negative is the reason to your problem.

Edited August 26, 2020 by eve

[FinRider]

1 hour ago, Eric plam said:

Thanks Finn for all these info!

As for me removing the metal bloc worked the best for me. 

But one last thing. I feel like when i step on it it lowers a lot and stays down a lot. Not bringing me up after , so leaving me with not a lot of travel for absorbing bumps. 

It does work nice while jumping, as I preload the jump.

But I feel like I'm quite low otherwise.. I've put the shock to many levels. The one that works the best seems to be 180/60. I'm 170 pounds fully geared

Any idea on how to adjust the shock to pull me up a little?

It might be binding still if it doesnt rebound you back up. I am about 180 lbs geared up, i currently run 200/100 with rebound at 5 clicks. This is a happy medium for light trails / commute.

I will be starting an excel sheet and post it here where we can track mods/improvements/settings etc. 

[FinRider]

One thing that worried me when i decided to order the wheel was the smallish battery and the range I would be able to get out of it. I commuted with my 680wh KS16C. My commute is 21km to the office and I would have on average 50% battery left. I was riding it on the edge with the constant “please decelerate” notification, so average riding speed was about 22’-23 km/h

with the S18 my batter is at 80% left with the same average speed. When I go a tad bit faster, about 25km/h, then the battery drops to 75%.

Needless to say, it fits my needs. What are your range experiences?

[redfoxdude]

2 hours ago, Eric plam said:

But I feel like I'm quite low otherwise.. I've put the shock to many levels. The one that works the best seems to be 180/60. I'm 170 pounds fully geared

Any idea on how to adjust the shock to pull me up a little?

3 minutes ago, FinRider said:

It might be binding still if it doesnt rebound you back up. I am about 180 lbs geared up, i currently run 200/100 with rebound at 5 clicks. This is a happy medium for light trails / commute.

I will be starting an excel sheet and post it here where we can track mods/improvements/settings etc. 

I agree, it may still be a bit stiff. Otherwise, you just need to try higher positive pressure until sag is satisfactory, and make sure the rebound knob isn't set too slow. I liked 5-10 clicks starting from the most counter-clockwise.

44 minutes ago, eve said:

That 60 in the negative is too low. Most likely the reason why youre so low.

Just for comparison. Kujirolls settings at 150lbs is 180/150. Dont forget to set up your rebound knob so it isnt at the slowest.

I think his negative is bit too high but i think the low pressure in your negative is the reason to your problem.

Negative pressure actually aids the compression, so a higher negative pressure will cause you to sag even lower. Though I do agree that a higher negative pressure would be good, to improve suppleness!

[Elliott Reitz]

I'm 200 lbs riding weight. With 90 degree elbows on both shock valves I've gotten to play with pressures quite easily.  I've come to like 230 psi upper and 150 lower.  Note there's very little volume to the lower chamber so pumping it to 200, I see 150 when reconnecting the pump, so I pump to 230/200 and end up with 230/150.  

Per the shock bearing dialog, all my shock-assembly bolts turn easily (both sides without coming loose, I can't get an Alen wrench on the back side anyway).  This is how bicycle shock mounts are so I don't think I'm having any bearing issues in the shock mount assembly. 

Meanwhile, the main wheel bearing still clicks 1x/revolution and I'm concerned about deep-compression making the main wire rub the tire (on curb shots & jumps).  Thus I'm soon going to saw the inner fender into left, center, and right pieces and install at least the left side to support the main wire. 

I included a side-pic to highlight my cutting of the upper pad and the side-plate rear (shows more suspension).  Also, notice the shock-valve elbows in the other pic!

 

 

 

{edit+} I just found the click!  Its the spacer on the right hand side.  I can reach my finger in over the plate and duplicate the sound by pressing on the spacer directly.  There seems to be a mm or so of slack in it between the wheel and the slider-mount. The other side doesn't click and doesn't have any play in it. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Elliott Reitz
+pics, improve description, Found the click!

[FinRider]

1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

With 90 degree elbows on both shock valves I've gotten to play with pressures quite easily. 

I do not understand the need for the 90 degree elbows. Could you please elaborate why you use these?

To my understanding, you have to have a reference point when adding/removing pressure to the shock. For this we have the magic block that goes between the sliding frame and the pedal hanger. When you use the block, you know 100% that the shock is every time in the same position. Without it the shock will be pre-compressed and the position will vary based on its current pressure. Also, when the block is put in place, both valves are very easy to access.

 

[Elliott Reitz]

32 minutes ago, FinRider said:

I do not understand the need for the 90 degree elbows. Could you please elaborate why you use these?

To my understanding, you have to have a reference point when adding/removing pressure to the shock. For this we have the magic block that goes between the sliding frame and the pedal hanger. When you use the block, you know 100% that the shock is every time in the same position. Without it the shock will be pre-compressed and the position will vary based on its current pressure. Also, when the block is put in place, both valves are very easy to access.

That's a PITA and I lost my block when I unboxed my wheel.  I also got my pump stuck the 1st time I pumped my shock and buggered some of the threads on both the pump and the shock.  With the elbow, that's not an issue.  Also, pumping from 0 pis to 230 psi takes too much work.  But its very easy to go from 200 to 230 or something like that.  I can also use my electric pump for settings up to 150 psi such as 150/100 up/lower.  

And my "reference point" as you call it is that when I exceed the pressure of about 100 in the upper chamber the shock fully extends.  If I ever doubt that its amazing how little air comes out the lower chamber sending it to 0 psi (lol, I keep typing pis). 

Meanwhile, if you're pumping with the shock compressed you probably only have half the psi I'm running.  Like if you pump to 230 then remove the block you probably only have 115 in the upper chamber.  No f'king wonder you have sag issues.    Using the elbow, I still have some sag at 150/100 (that is easy via electric pump).  And with my pedals in the lower position, I like the 230 upper.   The lower doesn't matter near as much, so 150 psi seemed pretty nice tonight.  And notice the rubber band went from fully up to about 1/2 way down while I only did a couple curb-shots tonight.  I think the biggest curb I did tonight was about 7".  There's one nearby that's about 18" so for me that's about right.

{+} The elbow on the lower chamber also makes it easier to detach the pump faster, more confidently of loosing less air in the process.

{++} https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-PC-45-Degree-Tyre-Valve-Extension-Adaptor-Motorcycle-Car-Tire-Stem-Extender/263488559466?hash=item3d5924596a:g:y00AAOSwPOhafncN

{+++} Note to get the sharpest bend.  In this pic its the one called 45 degree, though sometimes they're called 90 degree

Edited August 27, 2020 by Elliott Reitz
{+} {++ link} {+++ pic}

[Mark Wilson]

I found this random video of someone who replaced their board and two things happened: first off, they said the new board looked different; and second, until the speed unlock was gone, the app said the tilt-back speed was 37mph (went back to 31mph after the unlock). What do you guys think about either of these findings?

 

[mrelwood]

On 8/26/2020 at 4:00 AM, Elliott Reitz said:

What is this noise from my S18

That sounds like it could be the same we heard on @FinRider’s S18. It was very quiet and noticeable only on certain seemingly a bit random shock psi / sag level / rider weight / leg pressure combinations.

3 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

{edit+} I just found the click!  Its the spacer on the right hand side.  I can reach my finger in over the plate and duplicate the sound by pressing on the spacer directly.  There seems to be a mm or so of slack in it between the wheel and the slider-mount. The other side doesn't click and doesn't have any play in it. 

The spacer on the wheel axle?

[fbhb]

18 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The spacer on the wheel axle?

@mrelwood King Song calls the Axle spacer's "silver rings" in these screenshots I took for you from their Inner Tube Replacement video

Edited August 27, 2020 by fbhb

[Tinkererboi]

16 minutes ago, fbhb said:

King Song calls the Axle spacer's "silver rings"

Didn't know those things come off! Any possibility of centering the motor more precisely with those? On my 16x and at least one other user's there was a 4mm offset that could only be noticed if you looked closely enough. This 4mm makes a difference when slapping on knobby or other unusually large tyres.

[.....]

Looks like Locksong needs to sell these as 'kits'. I mean shit, if you have to rebuild the damn thing before its even thru its first battery charge.....  I can't help but follow this thread and grin like a little boy. I'm oddly happy I don't have an s18 and now all of this information is merely entertainment.. Good luck guys!

[fbhb]

20 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I mean shit, if you have to rebuild the damn thing before its even thru its first battery charge.....

Pretty much par for the course with All the brands wheels when their 1st batches reach the early adopters, unfortunately!  Not saying it's right and slowly they are all getting a little better, but it's inevitable that issues are gonna come up with New EUC models hitting the market place. 

All 3 brands EUC's to hit the market in 2020 so far have had their fair share of drama and we still have GotWay's 2 offering's to come yet!  So definitely more of the same can be expected IMHO especially when the Ex starts dropping riders with their "wrong way around" suspension catching on the slightest road irregularity/curb drops etc. (don't even think about taking it off road)!!!

Edited August 27, 2020 by fbhb

[FinRider]

3 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

And my "reference point" as you call it is that when I exceed the pressure of about 100 in the upper chamber the shock fully extends.  If I ever doubt that its amazing how little air comes out the lower chamber sending it to 0 psi (lol, I keep typing pis). 

Meanwhile, if you're pumping with the shock compressed you probably only have half the psi I'm running.  Like if you pump to 230 then remove the block you probably only have 115 in the upper chamber. 

I dont have sag problems on mine, but this for sure is worth looking into. 
 

I use the Locksong method with the block and set it up at 200/100. It is hard to check the pressure with the pump as the hose in the pump for the positive chamber sucks in about 10-15psi. 
 

i have a cheap little electronic gauge that I use for my car tires to check them. I wonder if it has range enough to measure the 200+ psi bc then I could use my method, remove the block and check the pressure at the shock extended level. Granted, I would need the elbows to do this as the upper chamber can not easily be reached when extended..

Edited August 27, 2020 by FinRider

[Chriull]

Hi @All!

Please take a look at our following suggestion regarding this megatopic:

Here are many important informations and suggestions gathered - but hard (to impossible) to get them all/find relevant stuff!

Hopefully this can be improved so members interested can more easily get posts relevant for them and specific issues can be discussed/solved more efficient?!

[Elliott Reitz]

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Looks like Locksong needs to sell these as 'kits'. I mean shit, if you have to rebuild the damn thing before its even thru its first battery charge.....  I can't help but follow this thread and grin like a little boy. I'm oddly happy I don't have an s18 and now all of this information is merely entertainment.. Good luck guys!

Think of it more like a Harley Davidson from before 2000.  Back then every bike was customized.

4 hours ago, FinRider said:

I dont have sag problems on mine, but this for sure is worth looking into.

I use the Locksong method with the block and set it up at 200/100. It is hard to check the pressure with the pump as the hose in the pump for the positive chamber sucks in about 10-15psi.

i have a cheap little electronic gauge that I use for my car tires to check them. I wonder if it has range enough to measure the 200+ psi bc then I could use my method, remove the block and check the pressure at the shock extended level. Granted, I would need the elbows to do this as the upper chamber can not easily be reached when extended..

The elbow makes using a guage easy too.  And I don't need to deflate and pump from zero either (that's a PITA). Also, if you are able to get the block out with it fully inflated then I doubt its as inflated as you think.  Like if I weigh 200 lbs and compress the shock (air=spring force) there's just no way I should have the weight to get that block out with such spring force at the bottomed out position.  I do think the pressure difference between fully compressed and decompressed is more than 15 psi.  More likely decompressed is closer to 50 % of your compressed pressure, especially without a reserve chamber on the shock.

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

Hi @All!

Please take a look at our following suggestion regarding this megatopic:

Here are many important informations and suggestions gathered - but hard (to impossible) to get them all/find relevant stuff!

Hopefully this can be improved so members interested can more easily get posts relevant for them and specific issues can be discussed/solved more efficient?!

I'm fine with there being an S18 megatopic.  Note that finding things isn't that hard here either.  Especially if you use "AND" in the search, or simply rely on reply notices.  For example, for this post I would search for:

S18 AND elbow

or

S18 AND shock AND psi

{+}ALSO note, without further sub-forum decomposition of the Kingsong forum into specific models, WTF do you expect?  That would be harder to find and there are other more general forums for things like the tire (with a little bit of appropriate cross posting).

Edited August 27, 2020 by Elliott Reitz
{+}

[Feynman]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The spacer on the wheel axle?

I have the same question.  I don't have any spacers anywhere else in my wheel.

[Elliott Reitz]

1 minute ago, Feynman said:

I have the same question.  I don't have any spacers anywhere else in my wheel.

Yes there are spacers on both sides of the main axle.  The one on the right side is slightly loose and it seems to click 1x/revolution, or when I push on it with my finger.  Between the wheel and the shock-slider where axle gets bolted down there is just a little extra space.  Also, the spacer isn't tight fitting to the diameter of the Axel. 

[FinRider]

5 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Yes there are spacers on both sides of the main axle.  The one on the right side is slightly loose and it seems to click 1x/revolution, or when I push on it with my finger.  Between the wheel and the shock-slider where axle gets bolted down there is just a little extra space.  Also, the spacer isn't tight fitting to the diameter of the Axel. 

This is good info, as I have a similar issue. Mine makes a creaking sound when I put pressure on the right side.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I'm fine with there being an S18 megatopic. 

..

{+}ALSO note, without further sub-forum decomposition of the Kingsong forum into specific models, WTF do you expect?  That would be harder to find and there are other more general forums for things like the tire (with a little bit of appropriate cross posting).

I'm with you! Especially there is no intention to get rid or turn down this discussion topic and clutter the kingsong sub forum with thousands of single topics! It historicly evolved that for new/specific wheels to discuss them - with good reasons!

I hope i did not formulate the suggestions in a way it's misunderstood...

1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I'm fine with there being an S18 megatopic.  Note that finding things isn't that hard here either.  Especially if you use "AND" in the search, or simply rely on reply notices.  For example, for this post I would search for:

Yes. Also the google search term "site:forum.electricunicycle.org whatever one wants to search for" works great - although it's much longer to type (if it's not already in the browser history)...

The main point behind this suggestion is that many main/serious points gathered here - if one did not happen to read them one will not get them but by reading more or less all the pages. One cannot not (easily) search for something one does not know/did not think of. And such important stuff should be simpler to follow if it's in one seperate topic!

But however - it's just a suggestion, an idea. One will see if and how people like, use, or just ignore it.

 

[Zopper]

29 minutes ago, Chriull said:

The main point behind this suggestion is that many main/serious points gathered here - if one did not happen to read them one will not get them but by reading more or less all the pages.

That's the reason I made the "V11 - known issues" topic and I'm keeping the first post updated when I find out something new. It's not going into details, but it tells you that there is this issue and that issue and then you can search for it in other threads.