King Song S18 Discussion

[fbhb]

47 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

Are these bearings available in 10x19x5mm (6800 series) though? That's the size that is in the linkages.

Skateboard/Longboard bearings are completely different dimensions unfortunately, so will not work.  I've got plenty of spare sets of skate bearings lying around, so not going to be an option, when and if I come to retrofit New/better bearings in due course!

It looks like King Song used these bearings as shown on Ali: 6800RS Bearing 10PCS 10x19x5 mm ABEC-3 Hobby Electric RC Car Truck 6800 RS 2RS Ball Bearings 6800-2RS Blue Sealed

They really are as cheap as chips though, which is Not surprising from the usual manufacturers "keep costs down" for mass production mentality!

Ceramic bearings seriously do jump up in price in the correct dimensions: 10x19x5 mm (S6800-2RS) Si3N4 Ceramic Bearing  These were the first option I could find, but there may be more cost effective options, should anyone wish to upgrade to ceramics!

Edited August 22, 2020 by fbhb

[eve]

1 hour ago, redfoxdude said:

Are these bearings available in 10x19x5mm (6800 series) though?

They are standard Longboard/Skateboard bearings. If another skate bearing fit, these will fit too. 

Dont know why people mention that they fit. @fbhb

Then they wont. 

https://www.123kugellager.at/lager-61800-CERA.php

But there are ceramic bearings in that size. Lol that site has every screw, bearing you can think off.  Probably just gonna order everything from there and fix.

Edited August 22, 2020 by eve

[mrelwood]

Just so all readers understand: While good quality bearings do have a better performance in general, they are not the part that is preventing the S18 suspension from functioning. The middle pivot of the upper arm for example is tightened very hard, linkage arm against another. And the connecting bolt itself rests tightly against the outer arm. The bearings themselves don't get to do much else than to keep the bolt at the center of the hole.

Modifying the hinges to take proper usage of the original bearings would bring ten times more gain than just replacing the bearings could ever do. I'm hoping that the smart and experienced forumeers will come up with and share practical solutions to fix the excessive friction. Waiting for KingSong's solution doesn't feel like the best of moves at the moment.

[eve]

@mrelwood I mentioned ceramic bearings because they are better longer lasting solution.

Ecodrift manage to dramatically improve the systems travel so im sure they post a guide or some our members will help in that regard.

 

 

[fbhb]

15 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Modifying the hinges to take proper usage of the original bearings would bring ten times more gain than just replacing the bearings could ever do. I'm hoping that the smart and experienced forumeers will come up with and share practical solutions to fix the excessive friction. Waiting for KingSong's solution doesn't feel like the best of moves at the moment.

@mrelwood you are correct and I have also outlined this several times in this thread, that the main problem is King Song's incorrect assembly/understanding of the suspension linkage bearings mating/contact surfaces.  I contacted Jack directly and have even sketched up the correct method of how bearing spacers should have been used for All of the pivot points for him! 

I still do not have my S18 (are you listening @The Fat Unicyclist), but rest assured if it arrives before King Song are able to rectify All the issues in future production I will very easily be able to carry out the necessary mods myself and can document it here for other forum members reference!

Edited August 23, 2020 by fbhb

[Feynman]

2 hours ago, fbhb said:

Skateboard/Longboard bearings are completely different dimensions unfortunately, so will not work.  I've got plenty of spare sets of skate bearings lying around, so not going to be an option, when and if I come to retrofit New/better bearings in due course!

So the linkage bearings aren't standard skateboard bearings?  Crap

[Steef Klonoa]

@redfoxdude I thought I had read in the thread here that the S18 uses regular skateboard bearings, I guess not. Thanks @fbhb for clearing that up!

[dsd317]

10x19x5 Ceramic bearings:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001339983271.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.3c294e58h0E6tX&algo_pvid=bb26eaef-f0ad-40cb-89f1-1fdc83bbb548&algo_expid=bb26eaef-f0ad-40cb-89f1-1fdc83bbb548-0&btsid=0be3743b15981628378972169e8117&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

https://www.amazon.com/10x19x5-Ceramic-Rubber-Bearing-6800-2RS/dp/B07B69YH1X/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=10x19x5+6800+ceramic+bearing&qid=1598163150&sr=8-4

https://www.amazon.com/TRiREAK-Ceramic-Hybrid-Bearing-Grade/dp/B07N17XN6S/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=10x19x5+6800+ceramic+bearing&qid=1598163064&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.com/6800-2RS-Bearing-10x19x5-Si3N4-Ceramic/dp/B002N32DGQ/ref=sr_1_19?dchild=1&keywords=10x19x5+6800+ceramic+bearing&qid=1598163235&sr=8-19

[Cranium]

On 8/21/2020 at 4:43 AM, mrelwood said:

 

For perspective, the V11 motor issue happened to a hard core off-roader, and is the only one we are aware of of the hundreds of V11s shipped. Inmotion started investigating immediately, and has already reached out to the motor supplier.

The rider with the blown board is much heavier than an average rider, and as a hard core off-roader as well had already blown 3 boards on self-balancing vehicles before this. A new board was shipped under warranty, which is being delivered exactly 1 week after reaching out to Inmotion. I now know of two blown boards in total on production V11s, the other being caused by a battery failure.

The bearings on all future V11s were replaced due to a single bearing issue.

 

As far as we know, every single S18 that has left the factory has:

• Faulty bearing assembly on every suspension joint
• Over-tightening on the bearing joints
• Bearings having been pushed into painted holes, leaving chunks of paint at the bearings
• Assembly blocks left in, which jam the slider tubes

Every single point above alone would disturb or prevent the suspension from working. In addition, the exposed motor cable is susceptible of being worn by a hard edge of the shell, and numerous units have the tire dragging on the fender as well as the fender dragging on the shell.

 

The only issue on all V11s has been the weak saddle attachment points. Which I often forget to screw back anyway, since they do bear load or affect riding in any way. They are being strengthened with metal inserts, and IM has confirmed that the warranty covers all 1st batch units in this regard as well.

 

Comparing a fraction of a percent to a 100 % failure rate is not "the same". I feel very sorry for all S18 owners, since this is an all time low on functional 1st batch EUC issues, which was not expected. Most owners will not be able to fix their new wheels themselves, causing huge trouble due to shipping limitations on batteries for individuals all over the world.

You are overplaying the 'issues' for the S18 as if they are all broken.  They aren't!  I don't think I've seen a bunch of irate S18 owners on here with non-functional wheels.  Your supposed sympathy is unnecessary.  And justifying the V11 failures with "they started investigating immediately" is no fix.  And "the rider is much heavier" is no excuse for a failure if they are operating within the manufacturers specs.  And the issue with the bearings getting rusty was a very lucky find before a batch of wheels went out rather than having anything to do with Inmotion being more responsive or having better engineering. 

• Faulty bearing assembly on every suspension joint
  • The reviews have been great.  Only when there were head to head nuanced comparisons did the difference come out and people started looking into it.  
• Over-tightening on the bearing joints
  • Really?  What is the torque on mine?  What should it be?  Are my bearing seized?  You don't know so don't assume.
• Bearings having been pushed into painted holes, leaving chunks of paint at the bearings
  • These are sealed bearings with an elastomeric material contact type seal.  The paint flakes will not get into the bearings.  It's the equivalent of getting them dirty and a non-issue.  However, the one person that said some of their bearing were broken should be investigated.  They indicated that the suspension was almost non-functional but still rode it and had a pretty bad crash.  Was this a really light person on a stiff suspension?  Was the pressure set correctly?  Did the bearing break because of the crash?  I haven't seen details posted.  
• Assembly blocks left in, which jam the slider tubes
  • It doesn't jam anything.  It can cause additional friction.  BIG difference.  And it can be easily removed in 30 seconds.  Not a big issue!
• How about durability between the two?  Why did you leave that out?  

Both wheels have some issues.  It would be wonderful to think they could be perfect but these manufactures cannot be expected to be at the level of Six Sigma manufacturing since it would put the cost of the wheels out of reach to an average income resulting in companies not being able to sustain themselves. So far, the S18 concerns are easily corrected to improve the performance more than it has today in just a few minutes with no disassembly.  This is far from an all time low.  To me, an all time low would be the Ninebot P which was overheating, failing and then they discontinued it not too long after the launch leaving owners high and dry.  I was one of them left with a POS wheel that injured me after a failure and ended up being thrown in the garbage.  

Engaging in negative language with such an obvious bias on one wheel versus another is unbecoming of a moderator.  

[eve]

Dont forget to mentioned the most important parts.

Almost all S18 issues can be fixed DYI. I doubt you can fix anything on V11 without relying on your seller to do it for you.

Thats why crashing a V11 in lot of cases leaves you in the hand of your seller. While when you crash an S18 you most likely just by few plastics and fix it yourself.
 

Not to mention the amount of modifications you can make on S18.

Im not fanboying over any wheel. Sure V11s build quality is better then S18 but there is a price to pay. Its like having an iPhone instead of having an Android. 

If somethings wrong with your iPhone you send it to Apple, If somethings wrong with your Android anyone can fix it.

Edited August 23, 2020 by eve

[FinRider]

1 minute ago, eve said:

Dont forget to mentioned the most important parts.

Almost all S18 issues can be fixed DYI. I doubt you can fix anything on V11 without relying on your seller to do it for you.

Thats why crashing a V11 in lot of cases leaves you in the hand of your seller. While when you crash an S18 you most likely just by few plastics and fix it yourself.
 

No, this is not true. All EUCs can be DIY fixed if you have the aptitude for it.

i know that everyone is trying to justify their purchase of a specific model. The fact is though that the S18 has some inherent design flaws in the execution of the suspension system. It can be fixed, but it will require some DIY engineering. In this regard the V11’s suspension is (to date) better.

 

[eve]

5 minutes ago, FinRider said:

No, this is not true. All EUCs can be DIY fixed if you have the aptitude for it.

i know that everyone is trying to justify their purchase of a specific model. The fact is though that the S18 has some inherent design flaws in the execution of the suspension system. It can be fixed, but it will require some DIY engineering. In this regard the V11’s suspension is (to date) better.

 

Yeah sure. Good luck doing that on V11. Im not trying to justify my purchase lol. I look at it objectively. 

Im planning on buying V11 too. 

Yes there are some flaws as with any first batch wheels. 

Dont your consider the fact that a higher PSI on V11 will make the wheel literally dangerous a flaw too? Higher PSI on S18 will not make propel you of your EUC. 

There are two-sides to everything.

Edited August 23, 2020 by eve

[FinRider]

2 hours ago, Cranium said:

You are overplaying the 'issues' for the S18 as if they are all broken.  They aren't!  I don't think I've seen a bunch of irate S18 owners on here with non-functional wheels.  Your supposed sympathy is unnecessary.  And justifying the V11 failures with "they started investigating immediately" is no fix.  And "the rider is much heavier" is no excuse for a failure if they are operating within the manufacturers specs.  And the issue with the bearings getting rusty was a very lucky find before a batch of wheels went out rather than having anything to do with Inmotion being more responsive or having better engineering. 

• Faulty bearing assembly on every suspension joint
  • The reviews have been great.  Only when there were head to head nuanced comparisons did the difference come out and people started looking into it.  
• Over-tightening on the bearing joints
  • Really?  What is the torque on mine?  What should it be?  Are my bearing seized?  You don't know so don't assume.
• Bearings having been pushed into painted holes, leaving chunks of paint at the bearings
  • These are sealed bearings with an elastomeric material contact type seal.  The paint flakes will not get into the bearings.  It's the equivalent of getting them dirty and a non-issue.  However, the one person that said some of their bearing were broken should be investigated.  They indicated that the suspension was almost non-functional but still rode it and had a pretty bad crash.  Was this a really light person on a stiff suspension?  Was the pressure set correctly?  Did the bearing break because of the crash?  I haven't seen details posted.  
• Assembly blocks left in, which jam the slider tubes
  • It doesn't jam anything.  It can cause additional friction.  BIG difference.  And it can be easily removed in 30 seconds.  Not a big issue!
• How about durability between the two?  Why did you leave that out?  

Both wheels have some issues.  It would be wonderful to think they could be perfect but these manufactures cannot be expected to be at the level of Six Sigma manufacturing since it would put the cost of the wheels out of reach to an average income resulting in companies not being able to sustain themselves. So far, the S18 concerns are easily corrected to improve the performance more than it has today in just a few minutes with no disassembly.  This is far from an all time low.  To me, an all time low would be the Ninebot P which was overheating, failing and then they discontinued it not too long after the launch leaving owners high and dry.  I was one of them left with a POS wheel that injured me after a failure and ended up being thrown in the garbage.  

Engaging in negative language with such an obvious bias on one wheel versus another is unbecoming of a moderator.  

Please keep it civil. The points that @mrelwood raised are all valid and nitpicking his response does not further our agenda to resolve the design deficiencies that The S18 undoubtedly has.

I have had the suspension pivot arms apart on 3 occasions now. I think I have nailed the problem down.

1. The fastening of the pivot arms cause friction, metal on metal, which needs to be addressed. I put in a spacer between the pivot arms, left the through bolt snug and added a thread locker instead of tightening the bolt.
2. I removed the block between the pedal hangers that seemed to push the slider bars out of paralell. —> does anyone remember the ecodrift video, did they have the pedal hangers in place when they showed the smooth movement of the carriage block on the slider bars? —> the pedal hangers may pull the bars out of paralell causing the slider bars out of parallell, which will be an issue.

 

One point that has not been discussed enough in my opinion is the motor cable. It rubs on the outer shell when the suspension is actively travelling. This might be a huge problem in the future.

I also have another problem with my inner shell / fender. It is slightly crooked and does not seem to be repairable so I may have to get it replaced.

Edited August 23, 2020 by FinRider

[Mark Wilson]

8 minutes ago, FinRider said:

One point that has not been discussed enough in my opinion is the motor cable. It rubs on the outer shell when the suspension is actively travelling. This might be a huge problem in the future.

Could you share a picture of where the cable is rubbing? I remember someone calling out this issue awhile back (might have been Chooch?).

[UniVehje]

18 minutes ago, eve said:

Thats why crashing a V11 in lot of cases leaves you in the hand of your seller. While when you crash an S18 you most likely just by few plastics and fix it yourself.

Apparently you didn't see the pictures of a totally destroyed S18 after a crash at just 25 km/h. The metal (Silium) parts cracked and not user fixable. 

8 minutes ago, eve said:

Dont your consider the fact that a higher PSI on V11 will make the wheel literally dangerous a flaw too? Higher PSI on S18 will not make propel you of your EUC. 

FinRider pointed out an objective flaw in the execution and manufacturing of the S18 suspension and your answer is to point that another wheel (that you don't consider an alternative) has a flaw too. And you base that on a theory of what caused one crash? By that theory every non suspended wheel would be flawed also as they would be even more dangerous when hitting a pot hole at high speeds. Too high PSI or accidentally hitting the suspension lever to off -position would propel you off your S18 if you thought your suspension was working properly and were riding too fast. 

[FinRider]

17 minutes ago, Mark Wilson said:

Could you share a picture of where the cable is rubbing? I remember someone calling out this issue awhile back (might have been Chooch?).

Sure. See attached. There is a metal spring braiding on the motor cable to shield it, but I do not think it is sufficient.

for some reason the pic is upside down  cant seem to fix it as I am posting on my iphone, but you get the gist  

 

What i did is that i filed down the inner casing above the spring so that it is not as sharp. I will see if I can make a cutout for the cable there though, but that means i need to take the wheel a bit more apart, which I will need to do to rectify the crooked fender anyway...

Edited August 23, 2020 by FinRider

[Simply_Striking]

2 hours ago, FinRider said:

Sure. See attached. There is a metal spring braiding on the motor cable to shield it, but I do not think it is sufficient.

for some reason the pic is upside down  cant seem to fix it as I am posting on my iphone, but you get the gist  

 

What i did is that i filed down the inner casing above the spring so that it is not as sharp. I will see if I can make a cutout for the cable there though, but that means i need to take the wheel a bit more apart, which I will need to do to rectify the crooked fender anyway...

I think I have seen in a post where it is suggested that new owners tuck the cable in as it comes out of place during shipment.

[FinRider]

45 minutes ago, Simply_Striking said:

I think I have seen in a post where it is suggested that new owners tuck the cable in as it comes out of place during shipment.

The groove is not deep enough to accomodate that on my wheel. And the cable has no play and is very stiff. Again, imho poor design. 

[RockyTop]

I have been watching my motor cables. Mine do not seem to stick out as far and have not been a problem. 

[Rehab1]

If anyone’s interested here’s an exploded view of the individual parts taken from the KS teardown. Simple .

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Rehab1

[NYC One Roll]

Would anyone be so kind to combine all the refinements that have been mentioned in this thread and make it into a single thread on this forum ? Or even perhaps a video. This is what I have read so far through this 116 page thread. 
 

- change out washers 

- lube the pivot points within the suspension 

- remove the block underside of the pedals

- push in (hammer) the wire to prevent rubbing

My s18 coming in soon, and for now I will need to combine through all the pages again to make sure I am not missing any of the recommendations to make the s18 riding experience the smoothest as can be. 
 

 

[Feynman]

10x19x5 is not standard skateboard bearing size (22x7x8).  Apparently it's a standard bearing size, but not for board wheels.  Oh well, I'll send em back to Amazon.

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

 I don't think I've seen a bunch of irate S18 owners on here with non-functional wheels.

Have you thought of what they compare their experiences to? Non-suspension wheels. A nearly stuck suspension is easily applauded if all you have ridden are hard-tails. I don’t consider an average EUC rider to have the knowledge to assess whether a mechanical system like this has been built correctly or not.

Quote

And justifying the V11 failures with "they started investigating immediately" is no fix.

Sure isn’t. And there may never be one, since we are talking about one single instance. One unit out of hundreds. Even average DOA failure percentages on EUCs tend to be much higher.

How the S18 suspension is put together is not about a failure of a few. It’s about how they are all built.

Quote

 And "the rider is much heavier" is no excuse for a failure if they are operating within the manufacturers specs.

Sure isn’t. That too is the only case I know of the production V11 mainboard breaking under high stress. Other mainboard failures are one caused by a faulty battery, and one on the preproduction sample. That’s three in total. If they were overengineered enough and built perfectly, they wouldn’t have happened. But that’s not a world we live in.

Quote

 And the issue with the bearings getting rusty was a very lucky find before a batch of wheels went out

The issue was found after hundreds of wheels were already shipped out. And even the Z-bearings are of a type that have been used on previous EUCs as well, I’ve read. My V11 has the same bearings, and I haven’t found a reason to be very concerned.

Quote

• • Only when there were head to head nuanced comparisons did the difference come out

Exactly. Without a proper benchmark or advanced knowledge, positive reviews are pretty pointless. Think about any 4 year old EUC. It would still be an amazing device if we hadn’t had the possibility to compare it to other EUCs that have paved the advancements in these 4 years. It would take an actual engineer to tell us that most specs could be easily multiplied.

 

Quote

•  
  • Really?  What is the torque on mine?

Yawn... The point is that those parts of the joint shouldn’t drag on eachother at all. I know without measuring that yours’ do. Because that’s how they are all built.

Quote

• Assembly blocks left in, which jam the slider tubes
  • It doesn't jam anything.  It can cause additional friction.  BIG difference. 
     

Sure. How much force does it take to push and pull the stock system from end to end if the shock is removed? I don’t need to guess, we actually tried. And we wrote about it here.

Quote

• How about durability between the two?  Why did you leave that out?  

Now I wonder if you are even being serious. Durability, “the ability to withstand wear”, by assessing one week old EUCs?

Quote

Both wheels have some issues.

As a Ninebot P owner, I’d assume that you would understand the difference between a single case of failure and a product that is just made or designed badly.

Quote

So far, the S18 concerns are easily corrected

You might want to read the last few pages of this thread a bit more carefully.

Quote

obvious bias on one wheel versus another is unbecoming of a moderator.  

Moderators are also people. All people have experiences on which they base their opinions on. “Bias” would refer to a prepositional opinion or attitude. If you haven’t disassembled or even ridden the V11 yet, wouldn’t your opinions fit the description of “biased” more than mine?

 Learning that one product has more severe issues than another is not called bias. It’s called experience.

Quote

Almost all S18 issues can be fixed DYI. I doubt you can fix anything on V11 without relying on your seller to do it for you.

I have no idea where you come up with this stuff. Why would fixing the V11 be more complicated than fixing the S18 if they had the same issue?

Quote

Thats why crashing a V11 in lot of cases...

“In a lot of cases”. How many are we talking about? The one ~30mph hit on a truck’s steel bumper?

Quote

Im not fanboying over any wheel.

If course you aren’t. You’d recognize that right away.

Quote

If somethings wrong with your iPhone you send it to Apple, If somethings wrong with your Android anyone can fix it.

How many have you fixed, either of those? I have repaired about a dozen iPhones. Was asked to fix an Android, but didn’t after reading the repair guide, since it would’ve been way too much work.

 It seems clear that all of the above come down to the crucial difference between impression and experience.

2 hours ago, eve said:

Higher PSI on S18 will not make propel you of your EUC. 

I absolutely agree. It would still barely move.

2 hours ago, eve said:

There are two-sides to everything.

Like whether the Ninebot P was a success, or a well designed and built wheel?

[Feynman]

4 hours ago, FinRider said:

What i did is that i filed down the inner casing above the spring so that it is not as sharp. I will see if I can make a cutout for the cable there though, but that means i need to take the wheel a bit more apart, which I will need to do to rectify the crooked fender anyway...

I dunno.  Mine looks really well-done.  I think this will wear a hole in the plastic long before shorting the cable

[FinRider]

1 hour ago, Feynman said:

I dunno.  Mine looks really well-done.  I think this will wear a hole in the plastic long before shorting the cable

Wow, that looks way better than mine!

i will fix it when i tear down the wheel to fix my rubbing fender.