King Song S18 Discussion

[Feynman]

1 minute ago, redfoxdude said:

Interesting. I measure 2.74 inches if I measure the widest point of the treads, and if I measure with the caliper set into the gap between the treads, I get 2.64 inches.

That was the highest measurement I could get.  There's some variance between tires I bet.  At least mine won't rub on the plastic fender.

[Mark Wilson]

50 minutes ago, Feynman said:

That was the highest measurement I could get.  There's some variance between tires I bet.  At least mine won't rub on the plastic fender.

That seems like a lot of variation between the two. Is that normal? You guys do have the same tire, right?

[Feynman]

2 minutes ago, Mark Wilson said:

That seems like a lot of variation between the two. Is that normal? You guys do have the same tire, right?

I assume so.  This is the tire that came installed on mine.

[Feynman]

I just pumped mine up to ~50 psi and measured again.  Now I get 2.585"

[dsd317]

Supposedly the xx-yyy numbers on the tire/tyre specify the more accurate dimension.  For example you'll see 18 X 3 which means 18 inch diameter by 3 inch width.  However, near those numbers are 76-355 (got those numbers from King Song's S18 inner tube replacement video)...which means 76mm [2.99 inches] width by 355mm [13.97 inches] diameter where the bead seats the rim.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[StuartL]

8 hours ago, dsd317 said:

However, near those numbers are 76-355 (got those numbers from King Song's S18 inner tube replacement video)...which means 76mm [2.99 inches] width by 355mm [13.97 inches] diameter where the bead seats the rim.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

No, you're exactly right

If you see a number between these two numbers, e.g. 76/90-355 that's the height of the tyre as a ratio of the width, so 76/90 would mean 76mm width and 90% of 76mm (around 68mm) tall.  If this number is absent it's normally assumed that the tyre is 100% profile, i.e. it's as high as it is wide.

[mrelwood]

17 hours ago, eve said:

Dont remember where i read the spec sheet but it sayed 2.6. Well all tyre go wider when theyre on the rim and inflated. Shermans street tyre is i think 2.75 on spec sheet too but its wider when on the wheel.

Motorcycle tires are measured differently. More info here:

The tire width also depends a bit on the width of the rim it is sitting on. But seems that the 2.57” and 2.74” measurements were both on the S18? Larger difference than expected for sure, unless the calipers are out of whack. My H-5102 measured about 2.7(5?)” on the MSX.

[Elliott Reitz]

What is this noise from my S18?

Bearings? FETs?

At this point I know its not the Kenda tire rubbing. The noise is consistent regardless of speed, and at this nearly stationary speed only happens in a single wheel position. It clicks once per revolution, regardless of ride-to ride on/off and regardless of weight to a side such as wide carve left or wide carve right, or 1 leg riding either side. Its only happens with my weight on the wheel. Should I be concerned about the bearings and life of the wheel? It would suck to have a bearing seize during a ride.

It began just after the mud and hill climb in this vid. (not during the hill climb, but soon after riding slow on streets I was suspecting mud in the knobby)

Edited August 26, 2020 by Elliott Reitz
remove RTF from links

[Shield]

Sounds like a bearing, it also looks like the tire isn't centered (leaning to the left) but that could just be the camera angle. Beautiful dog btw.

[Elliott Reitz]

13 minutes ago, Shield said:

Sounds like a bearing, it also looks like the tire isn't centered (leaning to the left) but that could just be the camera angle. Beautiful dog btw.

The tire isn't perfectly round.  I had to hand-squash it on opposite sides in opposite directions while the electric pump filled from zero to align it.  Before that I could see the tread moving side-side while slow riding and felt a little more inherent speed wobble at 20 mph.  Though since I eliminated any chance of tire-contact to the shell I'm sure that's not the cause of this noise.  Could be a bearing.  I do wonder if I re-attach the axle to the tubes with just a little force to add slop it might help.  I do think the inner fender may have done a little of that during original assembly. Still, the inner race on the bearings shouldn't be spinning against the spacers.

[EUChristian]

So I see the S-18 is basically a complete DIY project for first couple batches (if you want the suspension to work like it should). Were I just getting into this sport, I’d be scared silly to purchase this wheel at this point. But glad to see the engineers here are working these problems out!

How I think Kingsong can rectify this - why not host a live stream event to crowd source the knowledge here, help get the message out that fixes are on the way...with people responding in comments in real time. Maybe even only a select group of the best people on here (from an engineering standpoint). We all know how these companies are (all of them) when it comes to keeping things close to the chest...can you imagine if one took a leap of faith and made this the “people’s wheel”?

I believe the problem isn’t intellectual property theft as much as with “saving face” which is huge in China.  Unfortunately I am more concerned in saving my face from meeting the pavement.  

I’m going to pick up the future iteration of the S18 that you have all reverse engineered and re-designed.  Thanks for your hard work in getting these issues to Kingsong I hope they give some details around their changes quickly and with less ambiguity than in the past.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by EUChristian

[FinRider]

5 hours ago, EUChristian said:

So I see the S-18 is basically a complete DIY project for first couple batches (if you want the suspension to work like it should). Were I just getting into this sport, I’d be scared silly to purchase this wheel at this point. But glad to see the engineers here are working these problems out!

How I think Kingsong can rectify this - why not host a live stream event to crowd source the knowledge here, help get the message out that fixes are on the way...with people responding in comments in real time. Maybe even only a select group of the best people on here (from an engineering standpoint). We all know how these companies are (all of them) when it comes to keeping things close to the chest...can you imagine if one took a leap of faith and made this the “people’s wheel”?

I believe the problem isn’t intellectual property theft as much as with “saving face” which is huge in China.  Unfortunately I am more concerned in saving my face from meeting the pavement.  

I’m going to pick up the future iteration of the S18 that you have all reverse engineered and re-designed.  Thanks for your hard work in getting these issues to Kingsong I hope they give some details around their changes quickly and with less ambiguity than in the past.

 

To each their own. I wish the S18 would have been a bit better thought through before release, but I fully knew what I was getting into and I enjoy tinkering with the wheel. What else is there to do on a rainy day when you can't go out riding? (I am a comfort creature and riding in rain defeats the "fun" purpose for me...)

And in all honesty, the modifications I had to do to get the wheel somewhat smooth takes in the end maybe 10 minutes tops and all the tools required are 2pcs size 5 Allen wrenhes.

Next up for me is to tear down the old KS16C and do the 2.5" tire mod. Already got the tire from China so I will do that while I wait on the thrust bearings to arrive for the S18.

[Mark Wilson]

Chooch showing us how to ride the S18.

 

[Duf]

3 hours ago, FinRider said:

To each their own. I wish the S18 would have been a bit better thought through before release, but I fully knew what I was getting into and I enjoy tinkering with the wheel. What else is there to do on a rainy day when you can't go out riding? (I am a comfort creature and riding in rain defeats the "fun" purpose for me...)

And in all honesty, the modifications I had to do to get the wheel somewhat smooth takes in the end maybe 10 minutes tops and all the tools required are 2pcs size 5 Allen wrenhes.

Next up for me is to tear down the old KS16C and do the 2.5" tire mod. Already got the tire from China so I will do that while I wait on the thrust bearings to arrive for the S18.

Finn which mods did you apply to your S18?  Lube, remove lock washers and replace with spacers? (and remove metal block)

[EUChristian]

3 hours ago, FinRider said:

To each their own. I wish the S18 would have been a bit better thought through before release, but I fully knew what I was getting into and I enjoy tinkering with the wheel. What else is there to do on a rainy day when you can't go out riding? (I am a comfort creature and riding in rain defeats the "fun" purpose for me...)

And in all honesty, the modifications I had to do to get the wheel somewhat smooth takes in the end maybe 10 minutes tops and all the tools required are 2pcs size 5 Allen wrenhes.

Next up for me is to tear down the old KS16C and do the 2.5" tire mod. Already got the tire from China so I will do that while I wait on the thrust bearings to arrive for the S18.

Completely agree, to each their own.  I enjoy your posts and appreciate them greatly. Based on them I would argue you are overestimating the technical prowess of others because of your level of knowledge. What takes you 10 minutes would take me much longer. I’m talking about putting in new bearings and all of the rest of it. But this is nothing to argue about. I think you proved my point when you said you fully knew what you were getting into. You have the ability to crowdsource here on the forum and you clearly have some technical knowledge. I didn’t even know this forum existed the first year I rode. ”1st Batch” is a phrase I’ve only heard on this forum. The concept of it is built around historical knowledge of how EUC companies release wheels and comes from this forum itself. No new rider is going to know without this forum that the wheel they spent two grand on needs ripped apart to function correctly (and yes we could argue whether or not it meets functionality now - I’d say absolutely not but again, to each their own - as it does ride and the suspension kind of works out of box). So when someone says “This is a first batch wheel, problems are expected” they clearly mean expected for those following the EUC community on this forum, and to think every EUC rider is on this forum is simply wrong. 
 

But again, I agree with your point. It can be fixed by following directions. So how does Kingsong bridge the gap between a technical rider who understands what the wheel can and should do and a new rider that has no idea?  Maybe include a sheet in the box detailing a DIY fix for these first couple batches?  Or just a link to a video?

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by EUChristian

[FinRider]

4 minutes ago, Duf said:

Finn which mods did you apply to your S18?  Lube, remove lock washers and replace with spacers? (and remove metal block)

In order of what made the biggest improvement

1. Remove the block on the pedal hangers
2. Loosened the bolt that connects the pivot arms, placed a bearing spacer washer where they connect. Secured them with blue loctite.
3. Lubed everything with silicone spray grease

I am not convinced that the bearings on the pivot arms do what they are supposed to do, which is why I am looking forward to trying the thrust washers. The once I ordered are 2mm wide, so they should fit between the pivot arms. Mine were sligthly off-center, with the left (looking from the back) side grinding metal on metal and the right had about a 6mm space. I used a 1mm spacer to fill the gap for now to prevent the metal on metal.

 

 

[Duf]

3 minutes ago, FinRider said:

In order of what made the biggest improvement

1. Remove the block on the pedal hangers
2. Loosened the bolt that connects the pivot arms, placed a bearing spacer washer where they connect. Secured them with blue loctite.
3. Lubed everything with silicone spray grease

I am not convinced that the bearings on the pivot arms do what they are supposed to do, which is why I am looking forward to trying the thrust washers. The once I ordered are 2mm wide, so they should fit between the pivot arms. Mine were sligthly off-center, with the left (looking from the back) side grinding metal on metal and the right had about a 6mm space. I used a 1mm spacer to fill the gap for now to prevent the metal on metal.

 

 

SO when adding the bearing spacer washer, you removed the spring washer in the process?

 

[FinRider]

4 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

Completely agree, to each their own.  I enjoy your posts and appreciate them greatly. Based on them I would argue you are overestimating the technical prowess of others because of your level of knowledge. What takes you 10 minutes would take me much longer. I’m talking about putting in new bearings and all of the rest of it. But this is nothing to argue about. I think you proved my point when you said you fully knew what you were getting into. You have the ability to crowdsource here on the forum and you clearly have some technical knowledge. I didn’t even know this forum existed the first year I rode. ”1st Batch” is a phrase I’ve only heard on this forum. The concept of it is built around historical knowledge of how EUC companies release wheels and comes from this forum itself. No new rider is going to know without this forum that the wheel they spent two grand on needs ripped apart to function correctly (and yes we could argue whether or not it meets functionality now - I’d say absolutely not but again, to each their own - as it does ride and the suspension kind of works out of box). So when someone says “This is a first batch wheel, problems are expected” they clearly mean expected for those following the EUC community on this forum, and to think every EUC rider is on this forum is simply wrong. 
 

But again, I agree with your point. It can be fixed by following directions. So how does Kingsong bridge the gap between a technical rider who understands what the wheel can and should do and a new rider that has no idea?  Maybe include a sheet in the box detailing a DIY fix for these first couple batches?  Or just a link to a video?

 

To be honest, you do not have to be a technical genius to work on these EUC's. You do need tools though, but the tools required are very simple and cheap, any hardware store carries them.

There are plenty of youtube videos showing teardown etc... to me it is like baking a cake. I have no clue how to do it, but if someone give me a recipe, then I can follow it to a T and get a cake made.

I think you nailed it with the comments about "1st batch" etc. The uninformed buyer would indeed be in big trouble... another reason to buy locally where you can get the dealers support instead of getting it directly from China via Ali or chicway etc... but lets not get into that discussion again

 

[FinRider]

2 minutes ago, Duf said:

SO when adding the bearing spacer washer, you removed the spring washer in the process?

 

No. See this pic where I added the spacer. I only disconnected the pivot arms where the two join together. This is where I added the spacer. This is taken from the left side where there was metal on metal It is not as obvious from the angle I took the pic, but the right side had more clearence.

I did not do a complete teardown yet, which is required to get to the bearings that have the spring washers. I know those will be a problem... I hope to be able to fit my thrust bearings to these locations as well if space permits..

 

[Duf]

1 minute ago, FinRider said:

No. See this pic where I added the spacer. I only disconnected the pivot arms where the two join together. This is where I added the spacer. This is taken from the left side where there was metal on metal It is not as obvious from the angle I took the pic, but the right side had more clearence.

I did not do a complete teardown yet, which is required to get to the bearings that have the spring washers. I know those will be a problem... I hope to be able to fit my thrust bearings to these locations as well if space permits..

 

Gotcha.

[FinRider]

I probably should post these in the suspension overhaul thread instead. I will do that when I go to tear down the S18 to get access to the other locations where the pivot arms are connected to the frame as those bearings do need to be inspected.

This pic shows the other main problem, where the axle-bolt that holds the pivot arm in place is connected with a large washer. This washer is supposed to move, I had big marks on the metal where the torque force has cut a groove in the pivot arm.

 

[fbhb]

30 minutes ago, Duf said:

SO when adding the bearing spacer washer, you removed the spring washer in the process?

Hey @Duf I know you have had some of this question answered for you.  But as regards the spring washers that you will only find with a Full strip down of the linkages, they must be removed and thrown straight in the junk. 

King Song have been made fully aware that this was a major oversight, bad engineering practice and most likely the reason some owners have found broken bearings on strip down.  Spring washers being made of hardened steel and having a sharp edge where they are split, have been acting like a shearing tool when clamped up against the thin fragile inner race of the bearings!

King Song are in the process of addressing the issue, but it remains to be seen what they will actually come up with for future production!

Edited August 26, 2020 by fbhb

[fbhb]

17 minutes ago, FinRider said:

This pic shows the other main problem, where the axle-bolt that holds the pivot arm in place is connected with a large washer. This washer is supposed to move, I had big marks on the metal where the torque force has cut a groove in the pivot arm.

Yes, that is a definite issue as you so rightly state because the bolt is Not clamping the inner race.  Going back to the ecodrift video I posted earlier in the thread, you can see that they had removed this washer and bolted straight up against the inner race! 

I also remember back when Kuji's original "prototype" S18 videos first came out and noticed that the set up at that stage Did not have the large washer on the middle pivot point!  Throw out All spring washers and Flat washers and only use bearing spacers to achieve the desired result!

Edited August 26, 2020 by fbhb

[Duf]

6 minutes ago, fbhb said:

Yes, that is a definite issue as you so rightly state because the bolt is Not clamping the inner race.  Going back to the ecodrift video I posted earlier in the thread, you can see that they had removed this washer and bolted up against the inner race! 

I also remember back when Kuji's original "prototype" S18 videos first came out and noticed that the set up at that stage Did not have the large washer on the middle pivot point!

So another "easy" fix would be to remove that larger washer?

[FinRider]

10 minutes ago, fbhb said:

Yes, that is a definite issue as you so rightly state because the bolt is Not clamping the inner race.  Going back to the ecodrift video I posted earlier in the thread, you can see that they had removed this washer and bolted up against the inner race!

Yeah, this just goes to proove that this is Locksongs 1st attempt at designing a suspension. I have to admit, it is my 1st attempt at trying to solve the issue too... what a nice pair we are 

I belive a spacer that connects to the inner race of the bearings should have been used. I added a smaller washer under the big washer to attempt this, and it seems to have worked, but it is only a temporary fix.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by FinRider