King Song S18 Discussion

[Elliott Reitz]

13 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I'm 200 lbs riding weight. With 90 degree elbows on both shock valves I've gotten to play with pressures quite easily.  I've come to like 230 psi upper and 150 lower.  Note there's very little volume to the lower chamber so pumping it to 200, I see 150 when reconnecting the pump, so I pump to 230/200 and end up with 230/150.  

Per the shock bearing dialog, all my shock-assembly bolts turn easily (both sides without coming loose, I can't get an Alen wrench on the back side anyway).  This is how bicycle shock mounts are so I don't think I'm having any bearing issues in the shock mount assembly. 

Meanwhile, the main wheel bearing still clicks 1x/revolution and I'm concerned about deep-compression making the main wire rub the tire (on curb shots & jumps).  Thus I'm soon going to saw the inner fender into left, center, and right pieces and install at least the left side to support the main wire. 

I included a side-pic to highlight my cutting of the upper pad and the side-plate rear (shows more suspension).  Also, notice the shock-valve elbows in the other pic!

edit+} I just found the click!  Its the spacer on the right hand side.  I can reach my finger in over the plate and duplicate the sound by pressing on the spacer directly.  There seems to be a mm or so of slack in it between the wheel and the slider-mount. The other side doesn't click and doesn't have any play in it. 

Well I was wrong about the click.  I disassembled it again to add a piece of the fender so that the wire can't rub on the wheel (that worked). But now the axle spacer is tight and the click is still there.  {+}

So here's how to install the Kenda K262 onto the S18.

1. remove left side covers only (right side can stay on)

2. remove foot plates, main-wire cover, and the wheel

3. remove inner fender and cut off the left side (see pic, an angle grinder worked great)

4. re-install everything (with only the cutout left side of the inner fender).

Notes: a. don't bother with rear screws to the side cover since it just snaps in (the screws were at the bend above the foot plate and at the knee bend). b. in pic notice I removed the upper side-pad section (I need to re-glue the small back section). c. I cut the side cover to expose more of the suspension since I think that looks cool.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Elliott Reitz
{+}, +pic of partial inner fender

[ColoradoQuattro]

Wow - that tire looks awesome Elliott!  Nice!

Finally had time to mess around with the gopro a bit, edit a real video (yawn...), and just uploaded it...  More to come..  I downloaded Davinci Resolve to edit these videos, and I think I have not applied the smoothness settings correctly..  It looked better locally.. looking at this on YT, this really looks like crap.  Oh well.  Next time.

Any tips?  Thanks!

 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by ColoradoQuattro

[Mark Wilson]

13 minutes ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Any tips?  Thanks!

What pressures are you running in the shock, what is your riding weight, and is your rebound set properly? It looks to me like your suspension is too compressed.

[ColoradoQuattro]

Riding wise, I'm really happy with it... I just wish the video didn't look like garbage!

To answer your question.. I'd have to check the pressures...  I'm 155lbs.. give or take.  Those carhardts are probably good for two pounds!  But I always keep an eye on the rubber band, to make sure it the suspension isn't travelling farther than intended...  But I will consider kicking it up a notch to see how I like it.  Thanks! 

[dsd317]

9 minutes ago, Mark Wilson said:

It looks to me like your suspension is too compressed.

Agreed.  It actually looks like the suspension is not moving at all.

[ColoradoQuattro]

Just now, dsd317 said:

Agreed.  It actually looks like the suspension is not moving at all.

It definitely moves.. agree it's not apparent in the video, but it moves, and it's within spec.

[Mark Wilson]

3 minutes ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

It definitely moves.. agree it's not apparent in the video, but it moves, and it's within spec.

I don't have an S18 but I think the shock to go further into the body of the wheel. Check out this video for a comparison.

 

[ColoradoQuattro]

Point taken...  I will look at resetting the shock..  Great call - thanks!

[dsd317]

Compare the stroke length indicated by the blue o-ring on your shock to the stroke length on the following video (watch for at least 20 seconds).

 

[ColoradoQuattro]

15 minutes ago, dsd317 said:

Compare the stroke length indicated by the blue o-ring on your shock to the stroke length on the following video (watch for at least 20 seconds).

 

That's what I had been basing it on...  Just emptied the shock, reset it to 180/60, and firmed up the tire to make sure I wasn't mistaking tire flex for suspension travel.  It had been at 150/50. Suspension definitely moves, and the ride is definitely worse.  Rebound speed is all the way up.  Thinking maybe for this terrain (washboard, rocks, etc) I'll try going lower so long as the travel doesn't go out of spec...  We'll see.  Too dark for more video, but another updating coming tomorrow.

[Elliott Reitz]

On 8/27/2020 at 10:11 PM, ColoradoQuattro said:

That's what I had been basing it on...  Just emptied the shock, reset it to 180/60, and firmed up the tire to make sure I wasn't mistaking tire flex for suspension travel.  It had been at 150/50. Suspension definitely moves, and the ride is definitely worse.  Rebound speed is all the way up.  Thinking maybe for this terrain (washboard, rocks, etc) I'll try going lower so long as the travel doesn't go out of spec...  We'll see.  Too dark for more video, but another updating coming tomorrow.

Note there's a big difference based upon whether you're using the deflated block-lock while inflating, or attaching the pump to an already inflated and topped out shock.  Like per ideal gas law you'd need roughly 2x the pressure with the block-lock method.  I didn't know what that block was for and lost it during unboxing.  And after getting the pump stuck and threads buggared to remove it... I use valve-extension elbows (sharpest bend available).  These make it easy to top off pressure.  And with those my shock is fully extended for max air-chamber volume while filling.  Set this way, I like the lower chamber roughly 2/3 the psi of the upper chamber and depending on the streed vs trail vs tricks... set the upper from 150 up to about 230.

{+} PS:  In your video above, your shock upper chamber isn't fully inflated.  The only "shock" you appear to be  getting is from the rubber bushing or possibly the negative chamber keeping it from bottoming out.  You need to double your upper chamber pressure.  Without the block you'd be using 200 psi. But if you use the block then try 300/100... and when the block is removed I think you'll end up at about 150/75. Better yet, get the elbows!

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Elliott Reitz
{+} wording/clarification

[Elliott Reitz]

Any ideas how to add a seat to the S18?

 

[ColoradoQuattro]

9 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Note there's a big difference based upon whether you're using the deflated block-lock while inflating, or attaching the pump to an already inflated and topped out shock.  Like per ideal gas law you'd need roughly 2x the pressure with the block-lock method.  I didn't know what that block was for and lost it during unboxing.  And after getting the pump stuck and threads buggared to remove it... I use valve-extension elbows (sharpest bend available).  These make it easy to top off pressure.  And with those my shock is fully extended for max air-chamber volume while filling.  Set this way, I like the lower chamber roughly 2/3 the psi of the upper chamber and depending on the streed vs trail vs tricks... set the upper from 150 up to about 230.

{+} PS:  In your video above, your shock upper chamber isn't fully inflated.  The only "shock" you appear to be  getting is from the rubber bushing or possibly the negative chamber keeping it from bottoming out.  You need to double your upper chamber pressure.  Without the block you'd be using 200 psi. But if you use the block then try 300/100... and when the block is removed I think you'll end up at about 150/75. Better yet, get the elbows!

Hmmm..  ok - will take a look..  Have done it both ways to similar results, neither of which approximated that photo.  Thanks!

edit:

Well, starting to wonder if this shock is defective..  Have never seen a hit of movement in the upper chamber, right from day one.  Just emptied it again, used the block, pumped it up to 250, pumped up the lower to 125, released the block, upper chamber is just as fixed in place as it ever was.

Edit again..  I think I'm seeing an optical illusion in your picture..  I guess I'm not 100% sure what's supposed to be happening here.  But for a second, I thought for sure there was an upper cylinder, but looking at it again, I guess there isn't..  ?  I'm going to go back to something simple, like writing routing tables.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by ColoradoQuattro

[weelz]

21 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Well I was wrong about the click.  I disassembled it again to add a piece of the fender so that the wire can't rub on the wheel (that worked). But now the axle spacer is tight and the click is still there.  {+}

So here's how to install the Kenda K262 onto the S18.

1. remove left side covers only (right side can stay on)

2. remove foot plates, main-wire cover, and the wheel

3. remove inner fender and cut off the left side (see pic, an angle grinder worked great)

4. re-install everything (with only the cutout left side of the inner fender).

Notes: a. don't bother with rear screws to the side cover since it just snaps in (the screws were at the bend above the foot plate and at the knee bend). b. in pic notice I removed the upper side-pad section (I need to re-glue the small back section). c. I cut the side cover to expose more of the suspension since I think that looks cool.

Hi Elliot, great work - would love that tyre on  mine. is it the 18x3 K262? Can you post up a link to it?

[dsd317]

37 minutes ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Well, starting to wonder if this shock is defective..

Also...make sure your suspension linkage is not binding.  If you can, remove/detach one or both ends of shock from its mount and see if you can easily move the linkage without resistance.

[ColoradoQuattro]

1 hour ago, dsd317 said:

Also...make sure your suspension linkage is not binding.  If you can, remove/detach one or both ends of shock from its mount and see if you can easily move the linkage without resistance.

Since looking at the photo again, I really think this is a bit of a red herring...  I can bounce up and down on this and articulate the suspension no problem... No catching or noise, no resistance... If anything, I think maybe I need a lower overall pressure, and a higher neg/pos ratio to even out the higher profile mixed terrain up here (or maybe the reverse - will have to play with it some more).  Going to try that next..  Also going to blow all the dust out of everything.  Not going to wd40 anything as that'll only turn to mud on the next trip out, but I'll grab a video of hitting it with the air compressor and post it if it's any good... 

Before I do anything else though, I am going to drop the tire psi a bit and will give it a ride as is.. Probably 75% higher pressure than before..  will post the results in a few.

Okay..  Back from one of the normal routes..  Dropped the tire pressure to "feels about right" which resolved much of the ride quality issue, and I'm inclined to agree that there's probably more to gain on the top end of the adjustment.  Videos are copying...  Will make a couple of basic cuts just to make it watchable at upload them  no editing for smoothness, or anti smoothness or what have you.  

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by ColoradoQuattro

[stephen]

Nice video of what the s18 can do

 

[ColoradoQuattro]

1 minute ago, stephen said:

Nice video of what the s18 can do

 

Well, I guess.. if you're into that sort of thing...  

lol.. 

That's awesome.  Yeah - will take the pads.

[onizukagto]

Pads make all the difference. Can make any EUC feel so much better. 

[ColoradoQuattro]

It appears that talent, skill, and balls make all the difference...  

Going to drop your S18 in the drink?  Nah, send it..

Oh yeah... and pads.   

[Elliott Reitz]

On 8/28/2020 at 9:07 AM, weelz said:

Hi Elliot, great work - would love that tyre on  mine. is it the 18x3 K262? Can you post up a link to it?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenda-K262-Dual-Sport-Tire-2-75-100-14-Rear-Bias-Tube-Type/392828042806?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

 

On 8/28/2020 at 8:54 AM, ColoradoQuattro said:

Hmmm..  ok - will take a look..  Have done it both ways to similar results, neither of which approximated that photo.  Thanks!

edit:

Well, starting to wonder if this shock is defective..  Have never seen a hit of movement in the upper chamber, right from day one.  Just emptied it again, used the block, pumped it up to 250, pumped up the lower to 125, released the block, upper chamber is just as fixed in place as it ever was.

Edit again..  I think I'm seeing an optical illusion in your picture..  I guess I'm not 100% sure what's supposed to be happening here.  But for a second, I thought for sure there was an upper cylinder, but looking at it again, I guess there isn't..  ?  I'm going to go back to something simple, like writing routing tables.

 

In my pic (re-added below) I was showing the elbows I use for attaching the pump and/or checking pressure. 

BTW, in your pic here your shock appears to be in the inflated position (for first time I could see, but I still can't tell if its all the way up).  In your video it was clearly under inflated.  Like you had so much "sag" that it was nearly bottomed out while you were riding.  In my pic the rubber band is about 1/2 way down after doing a few normal curb shots and bunny hops.  Unless you're extreme riding I wouldn't expect to see the band much further than that unless you were under inflated. 

If its not fully extending after releasing the block you should check the return-rate adjustment (thumb-wheel).  The free-movement setting is all the way counter clockwise (that's pushing inward/forward with a right-hand finger from behind the wheel.  Another thing to try is attaching your pump through the side-hole with the shock fully extended (lift manually if need be)... though careful not to just pump it into that position like I did while unboxing... or you'll have no choice but to get the elbows (its impossible to attach it that way after buggering a couple of threads).

FWIW, here's a link to some elbows (they make the pump easy to attach and ADJUST pressure rather than starting by deflating and hand pumping from 0).  {+} I used pliers to make them extra tight so they never leak or twist while using them.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-45-Degree-Brass-Air-Tire-Valve-Extension-Car-Gold-for-Harley-Yamaha-Chopper/114309743339?hash=item1a9d6442eb:g:S-YAAOSwoptdEfrT

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Elliott Reitz

[ColoradoQuattro]

Ok - check this out...

 

[Elliott Reitz]

40 minutes ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Ok - check this out...

OK yes I think you have too much sag.  I think its because using the block to inflate it in the compressed position then decompressing you end up with roughly half the pressure you think you have (upper chamber).  For me to get my blue rubber band down that far I have to jump off a 18" curb (there is one nearby here).  I can't get mine that far down by bunny hopping and normal curbs. 

Also note that you can lower your pedals if you like a lower pedal position while having more travel in your shock (a reason for getting an S18 rather than a V11). 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Elliott Reitz

[Elliott Reitz]

38 minutes ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Ok - check this out..

OK here's definitive result of block vs no block shock inflation results.

Highlights:

1. Block vs no-block: Inflated to 200/100 with the block results in 150/150 when the block is removed. Increasing the upper chamber back to 200 increases the lower to 175. see 0:30 to 0:59

2. The removal of the pump lower chamber drops about 1/3 of its pressure due to a very small volume chamber. see 2:30

Corrections to my narration:

0:30 to 0:59 the lower chamber rises from 100 to 150 when the block is removed. I incorrectly said "the lower chamber doesn't look like it changed very much". Actually it did.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Elliott Reitz
add quote to CooradoQuattro

[Shield]

I've used these before and really like them.

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000336999466.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.69314c4dIzEKPn