King Song S18 Discussion

[Planemo]

5 hours ago, fbhb said:

All the active pivot points of the S18 suspension have sealed bearings pressed into them

Including both shock eyes?

5 hours ago, fbhb said:

This is definitely a spring washer

Fair enough. It wasnt clear on the image that prompted me to post. And I hadnt seen any other pics at the time.

Maybe I was just so astounded as to why someone would use a spring washer in this location.

A milled spacer should be used as you say. If everything is done properly there should be zero to minimal play and zero stiction in the entire system. Easy to check without a shock fitted.

Given how someone has clearly thought long and hard about the S18 setup, I am staggered that they go and compromise it by jerry rigging the pivot points.

[B08AH]

It was a last minute decision to paint the links. I wish they did not paint them. They could not have known that paint will get in the way of pressing the bearings in.

Bearings were not positioned straight because of bits of paint in there, few of them were even busted in the process of pressing in.

 

Some of the bearings are not working inside the links, since they are skewed /improperly compressed, and after extraction they start to work. After removing the paint bits, they can be properly pressed back in. 

[B08AH]

15 hours ago, Feynman said:

Mine works just fine.  You guys are too skinny in Russia.  

You must be thinking Chinese, Russian guys are not that skinny.

I am 105kg (like 240 lbs). And I bet yours does not work properly too, you just don't know what it should be like.

 

I did rewatch some of the videos from you guys BTW, and you definitely have the same issues. The suspension does not move at all over small bumps, large force needs to be applied to make it move.

The guy who bought S18 from another guy here on this forum probably has the sliders jamming. not the issue with the shock absorber.

[Feynman]

58 minutes ago, B08AH said:

It was a last minute decision to paint the links. I wish they did not paint them. They could not have known that paint will get in the way of pressing the bearings in.

Bearings were not positioned straight because of bits of paint in there, few of them were even busted in the process of pressing in.

 

Some of the bearings are not working inside the links, since they are skewed /improperly compressed, and after extraction they start to work. After removing the paint bits, they can be properly pressed back in. 

Are those standard size skateboard bearings?  If so, easily replaced

[B08AH]

Yes, they are standard, 6800VRS or 6800 2RS, there are also few other variations that fit.

 

[Feynman]

1 hour ago, B08AH said:

Yes, they are standard, 6800VRS or 6800 2RS, there are also few other variations that fit.

 

Really just using washers on the outside of the bearings to put the force from the bolts on the bearing race should solve any linkage binding issues.  That and replace the bearings if the paint is causing internal friction. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Skateboard-Truck-Axle-Washers-Performance/dp/B002R6ZNQ6

Edited August 18, 2020 by Feynman

[Beachboy]

4 hours ago, B08AH said:

You must be thinking Chinese, Russian guys are not that skinny.

I am 105kg (like 240 lbs). And I bet yours does not work properly too, you just don't know what it should be like.

 

I did rewatch some of the videos from you guys BTW, and you definitely have the same issues. The suspension does not move at all over small bumps, large force needs to be applied to make it move.

The guy who bought S18 from another guy here on this forum probably has the sliders jamming. not the issue with the shock absorber.

Nice info, I will check mine when its here already..

btw, does the middle wire on the left side just near the left ankle easily stripped because of rubbing when jumping?

[FinRider]

@mrelwood was kind enough to lend me his time and expertise in troubleshooting my suspension. It has been stiff and somewhat unresponsive, which we both believe is not normal. There are a couple of things that we found out:

• The bearings that connect the linkage to each other seemed to be intact
• The linkage arms rubs against each other, causing a pretty high friction point
  • I will attempt to find some thin low friction washers to put in this space. may some plastic or teflon (PTFE)? 
• The bolts that hold the linkage system together seems to compress the linkage and is not free flowing, enhancing the problem with the linkage rubbing against each other
  • We added a washer inside the original washer that presses on the linkage, focusing the fastening pressure on the bearing instead of the linkage.
• We added a bunch of CRC (WD40) to all the sliding points - linkage connection points, fastening points, slider bars, etc

 

The suspension came alive a bit after this, the improvement was definitely very noticeable. Something just dont seem right with the way they put this together. I will have one of our mechanical engineers in the office take a look at it Friday when I ride back in to the office with the wheel.

We also played a bit with the suspension pressure after this, as I had put it at 150/50, which now was making it bottom out

250/150 - Very stiff, very little sag (obviously)

170/70 - to sloppy, too much sag

200/100 - good balance (I will test this out for a while now)

Has oneone else tinkered around with the suspension?

 

 

 

[UniVehje]

14 minutes ago, FinRider said:

The suspension came alive a bit after this, the improvement was definitely very noticeable.

Well that confirms my disappointment when I tested your wheel. Excellent news that it’s working better. Now I want to try it again! 

[Zwheeler]

26 minutes ago, FinRider said:

Has oneone else tinkered around with the suspension

Well, I have excatly the same problems. Going to shop for some washers now

About pressure: I am about 105Kg/230lbs and I have also tried various pressures. According to my experience

• upper chamber sthing like 180-200 PSI
• lower chamber - dunno. Tried everything between 50 - 100. Maybe 50 PSI is the best

I always add some 20 PSI on the pump, because removing the hose always lets some air out from the system

-Z-

[Feynman]

59 minutes ago, FinRider said:

 

I still think the skateboard washers to bind the inner race to the bolt would make it work as intended. Keeping the bolt tension on the linkage and letting the inner race rotate freely would certainly be better than any bolt tension on the outer race, though.

[FinRider]

Would this be an option to put in between the linkage? Would just need to find the right size...

 

[FinRider]

1 hour ago, Zwheeler said:

I always add some 20 PSI on the pump, because removing the hose always lets some air out from the system

Yeah, its too bad that KS did not include the same pump that the V11 guys have... it has a switch that engages/locks the pressure to the nozzle only --> no pressure lost when unscrewing it.

[eve]

2 hours ago, FinRider said:

We added a bunch of CRC (WD40) to all the sliding points - linkage connection points, fastening points, slider bars, etc

WD40 is actually a degreaser. So its not gonna stay there for too long. Silicon spray would better i think. Not the best choice either. Considering these just for a suspension system a long lasting lube would be better. Its not good on wheels since it doesnt let the wheels spin as fast as a silicon spray or another short lasting lube but on a suspension wheel that nitpicking is not necessary.

On 8/18/2020 at 4:27 PM, B08AH said:

Yes, they are standard, 6800VRS or 6800 2RS, there are also few other variations that fit.

 

Imma just gonna put bone swiss ceramic there. 

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by eve

[FinRider]

6 minutes ago, eve said:

WD40 is actually a degreaser. So its not gonna stay there for too long. Silicon spray would better i think.

You are absolutely right!

Why Shouldn’t I Use WD-40 on Everything?

WD-40 actually stands for “Water Displacement formula 40,” and while it can help loosen rusty bolts, the film of oil left behind isn’t nearly enough for good, long-lasting lubrication. You might find that the troublesome squeak subsides for a little while, but soon enough you’ll have to go spray it away again. Using the right lubricant the first time will ensure that the problem is solved long enough for you to forget all about it. Save the WD-40 for what it does best: light lubrication, cleaning, and freeing stuck-together Lego bricks.

[eve]

@FinRider The positive thing is that the suspension system uses a lot of common parts so even if Kingsong wont provide any fixes. We can make it work. 

Imma put a dualpiston coil shock on that bad boy! 

Edited August 19, 2020 by eve

[FinRider]

Just now, eve said:

@FinRider The positive thing is that the suspension system uses a lot of common parts so even if Kingsong wont provide any fixes. We can make it work. 

Yeah, thats for sure! I will have one of our mechanical engineers take a look at the linkage on friday to get his take on it and give me hints and ideas on how I could repair/  improve it

[redfoxdude]

Great findings! I was thinking about tearing down the mechanism to look for problem areas and to add more lubrication. It's silly that they put those wide washers on the outside. But indeed, since everything is pretty standard, it should be possible to improve the system ourselves. Take note, King Song =]

I also wanted to note, I have not found that the supplied shock pump loses pressure upon disconnect. It appears to have a typical anti-air-loss connector, and the only loss in pressure I get is from pressurization of the hose on the pump, when I connect.

[eve]

My S18 will come hopefully next week. Has been stuck in chinese customs for 2 weeks! 

[FinRider]

12 minutes ago, eve said:

My S18 will come hopefully next week. Has been stuck in chinese customs for 2 weeks! 

The wait can be gruesome.... but there is light in the tunnel! Just obsess over the posts on this board... it helps  

[Feynman]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

Would this be an option to put in between the linkage? Would just need to find the right size...

 

I think a thrust bearing would work, but we shouldn't need it if the proper washer is used for the skateboard bearings

[RockyTop]

46 minutes ago, FinRider said:

You are absolutely right!

Why Shouldn’t I Use WD-40 on Everything?

WD-40 actually stands for “Water Displacement formula 40,” and while it can help loosen rusty bolts, the film of oil left behind isn’t nearly enough for good, long-lasting lubrication. You might find that the troublesome squeak subsides for a little while, but soon enough you’ll have to go spray it away again. Using the right lubricant the first time will ensure that the problem is solved long enough for you to forget all about it. Save the WD-40 for what it does best: light lubrication, cleaning, and freeing stuck-together Lego bricks.

Thank You!! WD is like a drug addiction. Once you use it you can’t stop!!! It is a terrible as a lubricant. My wife’s friend told me that she hates Squeaky doors so she oils all of the doors in her house every month. I gave her some Tryflow. She said it was one of the beat gifts she ever got. “Oil that smells good”  

[eve]

30 minutes ago, FinRider said:

The wait can be gruesome.... but there is light in the tunnel! Just obsess over the posts on this board... it helps  

And look at nice footage.

[Mark Wilson]

1 hour ago, eve said:

And look at nice footage.

Thanks for sharing. Personally, I'm still impressed at how well the S18 does with a skilled rider (and when the suspension works). I hope that those of you that have one can figure out how to fix the stiff suspension and that KingSong will take notice and fix this in future batches (and preferably stop locking wheels too) so that I can finally convince myself to purchase on of these wheels. The Gotway Ex looks interesting, I wonder how well it would do off-road compared to the S18?

[RockyTop]

Ok, I just got home and tore my S18 apart. ....... 

WHY!!!! Do they have bearings in both halves?!!!! 
You don’t need them in both sides. This only causes the bearings to bind against each other.
 

Think about it. It goes frame to bearing,  bearing to shaft,  shaft to second set of bearings ,  second set of bearings to frame. A stiff bolt in a hole on one frame and a bearing in the other frame would be much stronger. 
 

I did not have anything between the bearings. 
 

My take on the situation:

You don’t need to crush the bearings. A simple pin would work as long as it did not fall out. Problem- the bearings could fall out and are pressed from the inside with a retaining lip on the outside. It should have been the other way around so that you could trap everything with the shoulder bolt using a small washer in between the to frames / bearings as a spacer. At this point the inner side is only held in by friction. The bolt is smaller than the hole and could slide out. 
 

I am going to add a small washer on the outside between end of the shoulder bolt and oversized washer so that the shoulder bolt is being crushed rather than the bearings.
 

Edit : a very thin washer. It will not take much. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by RockyTop