126-Volt Nikola

[myfunwheel]

1 hour ago, Blueblade said:

Ah, ok, yes makes perfect sense.  (And I believe they do, more or less.  Motors being rated in kv=, K of RPM per v of input)  They tend to draw more current under load, the motor "tries harder" to get to the speed it "wants" to be at given the voltage.  With electric rc airplanes, you can often get more power out of the same motor and battery by putting a bigger prop on, within reason of course, (but then the battery drains faster, and the whole system needs to be capable of the increased current demand because the motor tries to spin the bigger prop at the same rpm).

Same happens with higher voltage too, motor wants to turn at a faster rpm with more voltage applied, drawing more current to do it (at full throttle anyway)

Adding 1 cell to the battery pack in series, the plane goes faster at full throttle and drains the pack faster: more current draw, but no more Ah capacity in the battery, only a voltage increase.

I've always found that my wheel feels much slower after I've ingested a party pack of delicious crunchy tacos from Taco Bell.  This observation intrigued me to such a degree that I began taking measurements. I then found that the number of tacos ingested is directly proportional to maximum speed limit from my gotway......lol. I'm going to graph the results and extract the mathematical formula and then publish it in a scientific publication of my choice.  This will no doubt lead to fame and worldwide recognition amongst the scientific community. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by myfunwheel

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, myfunwheel said:

I've always found that my wheel feels much slower after I've ingested a party pack of delicious crunchy tacos from Taco Bell.  This observation intrigued me to such a degree that I began taking measurements. I then found that the number of tacos ingested is directly proportional to maximum speed limit from my gotway......lol. I'm going to graph the results and extract the mathematical formula and then publish it in a scientific publication of my choice.  This will no doubt lead to fame and worldwide recognition amongst the scientific community. 

I think Dion has the best perspective of all of us.

Lets just ride and enjoy our tacos 

[Arbolest]

9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Lets just ride and enjoy our tacos 

This. No matter what opinions all of us may have here, at least we can all agree these things are fun as heck and should just be enjoyed. Right on Marty.    

[eddiemoy]

13 hours ago, Arbolest said:

Ok guys, this has been bugging me for a looooong time in these conversations. Unless the 100 volt wheel is running with an absurdly low number of packs in parallel, the100 volt wheel will always win. 

While everyone here has been yelling about how Amps = torque and Volts = speed and so the wheel with the most packs in parallel will obviously have more torque and grunt, they seem to somehow be missing the fact that that's not the whole story behind what is going on in one of these systems...

Remember, the most important thing to consider here, above ALL ELSE, is V=IR. (voltage = current x resistance)

In our situation, all things being equal, an 84v battery pack's maximum power output will never be as high as a 100v battery pack's.

The total amount of current that is going to flow through the motor only really depends on the voltage the motor is exposed to and its internal resistance. Now, assuming the motors on the 84v and 100v wheels are actually the same, then as long as the battery packs can both source the required current, the 100v pack will ALWAYS be able to generate more theoretical torque in that motor!

And the 100v pack can DEFINITELY source the current. The theoretical instantaneous current (amps) output of these battery packs is WAY higher than what is commonly quoted here. The ~10 amps per cell number that gets thrown around is at the high end of their nominal constant discharge rating, not what they are actually capable of delivering when they are essentially shorted (across, say, the motor). All the control boards in our wheels do to regulate the motor's power output and speed (simplified explanation of course) is regulate the voltage that the motors are exposed to. If a control board needs to provide a momentary burst of acceleration, it is basically just going to expose the motor to the full voltage of the battery and let those electrons flow. Because the motor doesn't provide very much resistance at ALL (it's basically just a long piece of wire), this will allow a stupendous amount of current to flow. And guess what? The battery packs that we have in our modern wheels are ALL easily capable of providing this current, in either the 84v or 100v flavors.

Everyone seems to be getting hung up on the debate between the 84v and 100v wheels at the "well the 84 volt wheels have more cells in parallel and will therefore provide more Amps" point. And while yes, the more batteries you have in parallel, the higher your theoretical current cap is going to be, you have to remember that in the highest-demand scenario we can put our wheels in, a single 84 volt (20s3p) battery pack can easily take care of it. They can provide way more current than our control boards will ever ask for, so it just seems silly to me that people are debating so vigorously over the supposed difference in torque between having 4 packs in parallel and 6 packs in parallel. Range anxiety aside, we don't even really need that many.

 

I guess that in order to put this to rest we need an example... 

Imagine two identical wheels. Same motors, same over-engineered control boards, same wiring, same shell, same pedals, yada yada... Now, one wheel has a regular old 84v 1600wh battery pack. The other wheel has an 84v battery pack that is 1000 times larger (with 1000 times as many cells), measuring in at 1,600,000 wh . It can provide 1000 times as many amps as the smaller battery pack. Now, let's say that the giant battery pack is magical and has exactly the same mass and dimensions as its 1600wh little brother.

Which of these wheels "has more torque"?

Will either wheel actually perform any differently?

If I were to use my regular old run-of-the-mill 1600wh wheel and race against my evil twin who is riding the 1,600,000wh wheel, is my evil twin going to take off like a bat out of hell and accelerate 1000 times faster than me? 

No. No he will not. I don't think there would be any difference at all between the performance of my regular old 1600wh wheel and the magical one. The reason is that I can have all of the current capacity in the universe, but if my electrical circuit doesn't generate a demand for it, then it's wasted and will never get used. 

 

I reiterate from above:

In our situation, all things being equal, an 84v battery pack's maximum power output will never be as high as a 100v battery pack's.

V=IR

 

 

Power is not the same as torque.  Torque is only dependent on current and the number of windings and the strength of the motor.  No where does it rely on the voltage.  

This is elementary physics, current in a wire produces a magnetic field.  It isn’t voltage in a wire.  

BTW, power is Current x voltage.  Your formula V=IR is voltage.  V is for voltage.  

You cannot send 1000x the current into the same motor.  I don’t understand your logic.  The motor wires are only rated for a certain number of amps before they overheat and melt their insulation and short circuit.  

 

[Arbolest]

29 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Power is not the same as torque.  Torque is only dependent on current and the number of windings and the strength of the motor.  No where does it rely on the voltage.  

This is elementary physics, current in a wire produces a magnetic field.  It isn’t voltage in a wire.  

BTW, power is Current x voltage.  Your formula V=IR is voltage.  V is for voltage.  

You cannot send 1000x the current into the same motor.  I don’t understand your logic.  The motor wires are only rated for a certain number of amps before they overheat and melt their insulation and short circuit.  

 

You seem to be seriously misunderstanding what I was trying to say Eddie. 

I am fully aware that power does not equal torque, and nowhere in my post did I say that it does.

What I was trying to get across is that the electrical circuit made up by the battery packs, the motor, and the control board will have a certain amount of current flowing through it based primarily on the voltage that the control board exposes the motor to and the resistance of the motor windings. In the highest-demand scenario, where the control board is exposing the motor to the full battery voltage (basically shorting the battery across the motor), the amount of current that the circuit will have running through it can be calculated by the simple equation V=IR. Or, written another way, I = V/R.

Maybe this example will work better for you:

Let's assume that we have two simple circuits, each having a battery pack and a motor. Assume the motors are the same (same internal resistance) and that the battery packs are an 84v and a 100v pack. When you close the circuits, which one is going to have more current flowing? It's simple to calculate it:

I = V/R

Current flowing in the circuit = Voltage of the battery pack / Resistance of the motor

Let's go with a resistance value of 1 ohm for simplicity's sake (and because I don't know the actual values for our wheels' motors ).

For the 84v circuit: Current = 84/1 = 84 Amps

For the 100v circuit: Current = 100/1 = 100 Amps

 

So like I said in my long post before, as long as the battery packs can both source the required current, the 100v pack will ALWAYS be able to generate more theoretical torque in that motor!

 

Addendum:

I would just like to highlight again one of the last points I made in my large post above.

I can have all of the current capacity in the universe, but if my electrical circuit doesn't generate a demand for it, then it's wasted and will never get used. 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Arbolest
Grammar. I haz it, I swearz

[mrelwood]

 

15 hours ago, Blueblade said:

Adding 1 cell to the battery pack in series, the plane goes faster at full throttle and drains the pack faster: more current draw, but no more Ah capacity in the battery, only a voltage increase.

The part that seems to be the most difficult for people to grasp is that with an EUC there is no ”full throttle”. There is not even a throttle.

If the wheel stays upright, it has enough power, torque, grunt, balls, voltage and amps for the situation it is in.

Comparing maximum values will not tell us wether there is any difference when only half of the power is being used.

That is what I also understand @Arbolest underlining with his comment:

7 hours ago, Arbolest said:

I can have all of the current capacity in the universe, but if my electrical circuit doesn't generate a demand for it, then it's wasted and will never get used. 

Until we over-lean a wheel, we haven’t reached the maximum power, torque, or any other force.

If acceleration indeed feels different on a 100V wheel vs a 84V wheel, the reason is somewhere else. I don’t understand what causes the difference, but there is no reason to believe that it is any maximum value or maximum rating of the wheel.

BTW, has anyone compared the capacitors on a 84V vs 100V EUC? I did notice that the 84V MSX caps are rated at 100V, so the ones on the 100V version should be rated higher. More capacitance as well? Would that translate to a different feel during acceleration?

[Nils]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

The part that seems to be the most difficult for people to grasp is that with an EUC there is no ”full throttle”. There is not even a throttle.

If the wheel stays upright, it has enough power, torque, grunt, balls, voltage and amps for the situation it is in.

Comparing maximum values will not tell us wether there is any difference when only half of the power is being used.

That is what I also understand @Arbolest underlining with his comment:

Until we over-lean a wheel, we haven’t reached the maximum power, torque, or any other force.

If acceleration indeed feels different on a 100V wheel vs a 84V wheel, the reason is somewhere else. I don’t understand what causes the difference, but there is no reason to believe that it is any maximum value or maximum rating of the wheel.

BTW, has anyone compared the capacitors on a 84V vs 100V EUC? I did notice that the 84V MSX caps are rated at 100V, so the ones on the 100V version should be rated higher. More capacitance as well? Would that translate to a different feel during acceleration?

Can't remember the exact numbers, but it has been stated that the 100V Nikola has higher rated capacitors. Whether it was 150 or 180 or something else I don't remember from the top of my head.

[Blueblade]

19 hours ago, myfunwheel said:

I've always found that my wheel feels much slower after I've ingested a party pack of delicious crunchy tacos from Taco Bell.  This observation intrigued me to such a degree that I began taking measurements. I then found that the number of tacos ingested is directly proportional to maximum speed limit from my gotway......lol. I'm going to graph the results and extract the mathematical formula and then publish it in a scientific publication of my choice.  This will no doubt lead to fame and worldwide recognition amongst the scientific community. 

*CLEARLY* you're the type of rider who is going to need that 126v nikola then, to negate any extra taco induced performance impacts, and it's good to see Gotway will have you covered.  One shouldn't have to choose between tacos and the ultimate in electric unicycle performance.  

[FreeRide]

1 hour ago, Blueblade said:

...  One shouldn't have to choose between tacos and the ultimate in electric unicycle performance.  

You may have misunderstood;  next to Tacos, the "the ultimate in electric unicycle performance" just doesn't matter.

[Arbolest]

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

...

Comparing maximum values will not tell us wether there is any difference when only half of the power is being used.

...

Until we over-lean a wheel, we haven’t reached the maximum power, torque, or any other force.

...

Edited August 17, 2019 by Arbolest

[Planemo]

17 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Power is not the same as torque. 

Very true. People do get confused with this.

In internal combustion engines, power is always derived from a multiplier of torque, such as rpm. Usually, torque x rpm divided by the magic figure of 5250 = power.

The same formula can apply to euc's as we also have a spinning mass.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Very true. People do get confused with this.

In internal combustion engines, power is always derived from a multiplier of torque, such as rpm. Usually, torque x rpm divided by the magic figure of 5250 = power.

The same formula can apply to euc's as we also have a spinning mass.

That's one of the definitions of power - torque times angular speed. That applies to everything that's rotating...

[Mono]

On 8/3/2019 at 7:15 PM, Marty Backe said:

How many years do you think it'll be before they [KingSong] get to 126-volts

Hopefully infinite and KingSong concentrates on all of the other more important technological challenges that come with building a good EUC. I am not too hopeful though, given how crazy their customers are about battery voltage.

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

Hopefully infinite and KingSong concentrates on all of the other more important technological challenges that come with building a good EUC. I am not too hopeful though, given how crazy their customers are about battery voltage.

KingSong resisted 84-volts for the longest time but finally gave it. There's nothing like competition 

[Blueblade]

On 8/16/2019 at 5:32 PM, Marty Backe said:

I think Dion has the best perspective of all of us.

Lets just ride and enjoy our tacos 

Speaking of that, I saw in your range test, you mentioned riding on Santa Fe dam.  Next time you're in the area, do yourself a favor and ride a few blocks up Arrow Hwy from the park ( East I believe) to Azusa Ave, take a right, and another couple blocks, to Manny's El Loco on the corner of Azusa and Cypress.  Order the El Loco burrito- it's the size of a brick and has a Chile Relleno stuffed inside. So good and definitely filling!

There's not a lot I miss about living in SoCal, but that place and burrito, I definitely do! (And In-n-out, and beaches with water actually warm enough to swim in!)

DISCLAIMER: I haven't eaten there in ~8 years, a lot could have changed since then!

[meepmeepmayer]

7 hours ago, Afeez Kay said:

Currently at the Gotway factory.. the 126v is a way off.. they have to work on improving the components first and test it. So release in 4- 6months time..

Info about the 126V Nikola timeline. Originally posted here but I moved the rest of the stuff (a lot of new info not about the 126V Nikola) into its own thread.

[Shad0z]

I also recently saw a post from gotway about that they are currently testing some new 21700 lithium cells (a little bigger) and they should have +40% energy density. Maybe lost in translation. But it definetly sounds like good news!

[Nick McCutcheon]

I hope that if this 126volt Nikola does come out, it will eventually lead to a 126v Monster  I don't feel the need for any more speed past what the 100v Nikola+ can give me at around 35-36mph (it starts getting too unstable to be comfortable), but I would be all over a Monster that's capable of getting to speeds where it starts to feel unstable. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Latest Speedy Feet Nikola follow up video mentions that Gotway says they couldn't get the 126V Nikola to work. "The engineers cannot do it."

Not sure how reliable Ian is for technical stuff, but this sounds like the 21700 battery cell Nikolas are all the new Nikolas (Nikolae?) we might get. No 126V I still have the faint hope that Gotway keeps trying and eventually succeeding, but it will be far off if it happens.

(Timecoded at 1:59)

[stephen]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

but this sounds like the 21700 battery cell Nikolas are all the new Nikolas

Gotway are making Nikolas with the new 21700 cells👍

[yuweng]

23 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Latest Speedy Feet Nikola follow up video mentions that Gotway says they couldn't get the 126V Nikola to work. "The engineers cannot do it."

i think its just a matter of time, on ebikes there are such controllers.

[meepmeepmayer]

32 minutes ago, yuweng said:

i think its just a matter of time, on ebikes there are such controllers.

I also think it's possible.

I interpret this news like this: Gotway expected to be able to build a 126V wheel by just upgrading their existing design with better parts - bigger mosfets, better other board components, and so on. But with the same basic board design and choice of components and physical board size.

Maybe this didn't work and for 126V they need a new design, like different components or a physically bigger board (the ebike picture mentions 24 mosfets which wouldn't really fit an existing Gotway board, and that is a big controller in your picture). Bigger board means then means a bigger heatsink, which needs more space inside the wheel, etc. - so a new physical design may be necessary.

So they can't adapt their existing wheels to 126V easily, maybe for simple space/geometry reasons, but maybe they're still working on completely new designs where everything is made for 126V.

Just speculating (and hoping for the best).

[Marty Backe]

On 9/23/2019 at 6:55 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

Latest Speedy Feet Nikola follow up video mentions that Gotway says they couldn't get the 126V Nikola to work. "The engineers cannot do it."

Not sure how reliable Ian is for technical stuff, but this sounds like the 21700 battery cell Nikolas are all the new Nikolas (Nikolae?) we might get. No 126V I still have the faint hope that Gotway keeps trying and eventually succeeding, but it will be far off if it happens.

(Timecoded at 1:59)

I don't take this as gospel. I've had Jason tell me that Gotway isn't going to do something, and then they do it. He'll be the first to tell you that sometimes one part of Gotway doesn't know what the other part is doing.

[yuweng]

On 9/25/2019 at 6:56 AM, Marty Backe said:

sometimes one part of Gotway doesn't know what the other part is doing.

Sounds a lot like the previous multi-national company i work for which is understandable but Gotway's workforce is only a handful  ( pic from their fb )

A quick google search, i think EUCs still got a long way to go but so powerful would anyone able/ dare to control/ ride, not to mention the recent Ben's & Chris's incident, its like you're riding on a time bomb, by that time i guess everyone would have to carry a fire extinguisher with them when go riding 

Updates

Sort of related, lithium fire here & here 

Edited October 9, 2019 by yuweng
Update info

[Boogieman]

On 8/3/2019 at 11:07 PM, UniVehje said:

126v is kind of exiting news but I’m seeing a lot of uncertainty here. How come there are still no good explanations about this? It’s all just guesses and theories. 

Seems like there are no serious downsides on higher voltages and one confirmed upside (higher top speed). And then there’s the Z10 doing fine with very low voltage. I’m still not seeing anything that exites me on these 100 and 126 wheels as I’m already going as fast as I want. 

But I'm glad to see this development. We’ll soon learn more and Gotway is moving the industry forward. 👍

Z10 was backed by Xiaomi, a respectable backer that dont sell "basement builds". Indeed it had its initial caveats but for a first release it wasn't a bad wheel (and cable managment is second to none compared to gotway that throws in all cables and puts one or two basic anchor points. Some sliding silicone tubing over the motor cables (on my tesla v1.2) was probably the worst I have ever seen. I could with VERY LITTLE FORCE slide the silicone tubing away.making it possible for motor cables to short. IMO a real basement build.

Sure they do push boundaries, but unless they get their cable management together theyre gonna have a bunch of lifes on their hands especially once they push 60-80 km/h.

Increasing DC voltage increase the risk of arcing which means they need even better insulation on cables, MoBo and motor. Dry air fine...but a moist day by the sea (salt) and its not quite as nice.

Lets hooe they start pushing quality as much as they do speed, then they will become market leaders bar none.