126-Volt Nikola

[Rywokast]

5 minutes ago, esaj said:

Another thing that came to mind is (if they're using the same motor), how much power can the motor handle continuously? With higher voltage, you use less current to produce the same power vs. a lower voltage. If the motor can handle the same duty cycles with higher voltage as it did with lower voltage, that means more total output power. If not, and they have to limit the power (average current, lower duty cycle) to keep the motor heating in check, it means that they're trading higher top speed for less torque (less current) for the same output power.

thats what ive gathered from reading about 100V wheels a lot on here is that while very minimal because 84 to 100 is not a huge jump it is still there, very slightly less torque on an equal motor.. now that 126 and 84 is a huge difference it should be readily apparent as to whether this is actually something to be concerned about when deciding a purchase, or if its so minimal that you shouldnt even take it into consideration.. im very interested to find out... it seems ludicrous that anybody would every want to come near 80 km/h on a 16" unicycle that just seems like a death wish lol.. so if there is also noticeably less torque a 126V wheel would be a hard sell unless they put in a beefier motor like was originally rumored for the 100V plus edition that as predicted, was untrue

[esaj]

5 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

thats what ive gathered from reading about 100V wheels a lot on here is that while very minimal because 84 to 100 is not a huge jump it is still there, very slightly less torque on an equal motor.. now that 126 and 84 is a huge difference it should be readily apparent as to whether this is actually something to be concerned about when deciding a purchase, or if its so minimal that you shouldnt even take it into consideration.. im very interested to find out... it seems ludicrous that anybody would every want to come near 80 km/h on a 16" unicycle that just seems like a death wish lol.. so if there is also noticeably less torque a 126V wheel would be a hard sell unless they put in a beefier motor like was originally rumored for the 100V plus edition that as predicted, was untrue

Yeah, it's a small miracle that nobody has (to my knowledge) died so far on a high speed crash... for the motors, it's really hard to say how much can they actually handle. In the e-bike world, people have "overvolted" the stock motors in the past for higher speeds, some could take it, others not. There's quite a lot of metal and mass on the motors, and the metal side covers should conduct heat pretty well, plus there's more or less constant airflow around the covers while riding, so it might be that it works just like it is with higher voltage and still using maximum currents... or not. The motor arcing voltages are likely pretty high, but how high, no idea. Several hundred volts? Less? More?

There's more to it than the motor alone. Higher voltage mosfets tend to have higher internal resistance, which likely means more losses (and heat) in the mainboard to get rid of, which may require better cooling. Higher voltage "kick-backs" from the motor. Bigger capacitors for the higher voltages. Beefier step-downs to handle dropping the voltage for the mainboard electronics (12V or so for gate drivers, 5V for USB and such, down to 3.3V for the MCU, IMU and some other parts). Larger BMSs for more cells in series. Maintenance becomes more dangerous the higher the voltages go. 

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, esaj said:

Yeah, it's a small miracle that nobody has (to my knowledge) died so far on a high speed crash... for the motors, it's really hard to say how much can they actually handle. In the e-bike world, people have "overvolted" the stock motors in the past for higher speeds, some could take it, others not. There's quite a lot of metal and mass on the motors, and the metal side covers should conduct heat pretty well, plus there's more or less constant airflow around the covers while riding, so it might be that it works just like it is with higher voltage and still using maximum currents... or not. The motor arcing voltages are likely pretty high, but how high, no idea. Several hundred volts? Less? More?

There's more to it than the motor alone. Higher voltage mosfets tend to have higher internal resistance, which likely means more losses (and heat) in the mainboard to get rid of, which may require better cooling. Higher voltage "kick-backs" from the motor. Bigger capacitors for the higher voltages. Beefier step-downs to handle dropping the voltage for the mainboard electronics (12V or so for gate drivers, 5V for USB and such, down to 3.3V for the MCU, IMU and some other parts). Larger BMSs for more cells in series. Maintenance becomes more dangerous the higher the voltages go. 

honestly with their spotty record of poor QC and apparent lack of knowledge or concern with regards to details like this is pretty scary.. it's not difficult to imagine someone actually killing themself on a machine like this especially with the lack of redundancy inherent on an EUC... I certainly would not want to be an early adopter haha.. I don't honestly know if any manufacturer is responsible enough to do it at this time we see a plethora of issues from all manufacturers though rare they might be with something of this calibre you can be talking life or death.. I really hope they take it a lot more serious and do some extreme testing before ever releasing

[esaj]

1 minute ago, Rywokast said:

honestly with their spotty record of poor QC and apparent lack of knowledge or concern with regards to details like this is pretty scary.. it's not difficult to imagine someone actually killing themself on a machine like this especially with the lack of redundancy inherent on an EUC... I certainly would not want to be an early adopter haha.. I don't honestly know if any manufacturer is responsible enough to do it at this time we see a plethora of issues from all manufacturers though rare they might be with something of this calibre you can be talking life or death.. I really hope they take it a lot more serious and do some extreme testing before ever releasing

I'd at least like to think that the engineers designing the wheels do know what they're doing, but likely it's more a matter of far less stringent safety and quality requirements/culture in general and trying to save on manufacturing costs to keep the wheel prices low(er). Hopefully when pushing the envelope towards something not seen so far they do take their time and test things more carefully. Or just use @Marty Backe as a crash test dummy before real people

[Rywokast]

4 minutes ago, esaj said:

I'd at least like to think that the engineers designing the wheels do know what they're doing, but likely it's more a matter of far less stringent safety and quality requirements/culture in general and trying to save on manufacturing costs to keep the wheel prices low(er). Hopefully when pushing the envelope towards something not seen so far they do take their time and test things more carefully. Or just use @Marty Backe as a crash test dummy before real people

its not so much that i think the engineers are unqualified or dont know what theyre doing.. but more so the fact they they are penny pinchers trying their best to keep costs down to an absolute minimum while having unskilled laborers assemble them in a way that prioritizes speed and efficiency over possible safety issues.. obvious lack of waterproofing, cables all over the place willy nilly, using gobs of silicone everywhere in place of proper connectors, placing components wherever they fit even if the design was not intended that way etc.. that coupled with the obvious lack of extreme testing would make me extremely wary to say the least.. not to mention they seem to want to be the first ones out the door, no matter what

[Ben Kim]

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

its not so much that i think the engineers are unqualified or dont know what theyre doing.. but more so the fact they they are penny pinchers trying their best to keep costs down to an absolute minimum while having unskilled laborers assemble them in a way that prioritizes speed and efficiency over possible safety issues.. obvious lack of waterproofing, cables all over the place willy nilly, using gobs of silicone everywhere in place of proper connectors, placing components wherever they fit even if the design was not intended that way etc.. that coupled with the obvious lack of extreme testing would make me extremely wary to say the least.. not to mention they seem to want to be the first ones out the door, no matter what

considering none of their competitors are even doing 24S 100V wheels, i think Gotway can take their time perfecting the 126V design before releasing it to the masses. 

[Rywokast]

12 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

considering none of their competitors are even doing 24S 100V wheels, i think Gotway can take their time perfecting the 126V design before releasing it to the masses. 

they can.. but when have you ever heard of them taking their time to perfect something xD one can only hope

[Hatchet]

Buying from Gotway is like playing the market. On EWhweels.com :

"Hold ..hold ..,I know they'll go a little higher on that voltage....Oh thank god i waited! knew it!! a 126v version! Haha! I knew it I win baby!"*Buys*

Next day on the forums: "200v Nicola announced!"

Dammit..

 

[Planemo]

3 hours ago, houseofjob said:

No, this is on the underside of the shell itself, attaching to the board.

Wow this is news to me bud, then again I have never fully stripped one. So the vertically mounted mosfet board is bolted to some sort of large metal structure in the underside of the shell? Does it run around the top of the wheel? I did view your teardown vid but couldn't see it there.

I thought the mosfet board was just bolted to the plastic inner shell, with the piggyback motherboard on top of it.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Planemo

[houseofjob]

24 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Wow this is news to me bud, then again I have never fully stripped one. So the vertically mounted mosfet board is bolted to some sort of large metal structure in the underside of the shell? Does it run around the top of the wheel? I did view your teardown vid but couldn't see it there.

I thought the mosfet board was just bolted to the plastic inner shell, with the piggyback motherboard on top of it.

I forgot to include it in my teardown vid, but I was able to dig up my post where I upped a pic. That whole thing below is a heatsink, covers almost the entirety of the undershell.

Edited August 4, 2019 by houseofjob

[Planemo]

3 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

I forgot to include it in my teardown vid, but I was able to dig up my post where I upped a pic. That whole thing below is a heatsink.

Ah! Got you! Thanks a lot for that, all makes sense now. I was trying to envisage where a large lump of metal could be, bearing in mind there is very little weight above the wheel.

So Ninebot used a huge flat metal plate. Quite a lot of surface area on that it has to be said. I had never seen it before as I have never pulled the motor out or gone as far as splitting the shell. I wonder how much that plate weighs, and why NB didn't make it say half the size (or less) and just use a ducted fan. Maybe they had concerns re fan failure.

[houseofjob]

6 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Ah! Got you! Thanks a lot for that, all makes sense now. I was trying to envisage where a large lump of metal could be, bearing in mind there is very little weight above the wheel.

So Ninebot used a huge flat metal plate. Quite a lot of surface area on that it has to be said. I had never seen it before as I have never pulled the motor out or gone as far as splitting the shell. I wonder how much that plate weighs, and why NB didn't make it say half the size (or less) and just use a ducted fan. Maybe they had concerns re fan failure.

Sure.

AFAIK, the Z at 14S has to run very high current to achieve competitve power, so they need to dump all that extra heat somewhere, somehow, and a simple fan solution would not be effective enough, as it's barely effective enough on the high power 100V Gotways IMHO, especially in the summer heat, which is why you'll see more serious and handy riders add/upgrade fans, and create exhausts, etc.

Edited August 4, 2019 by houseofjob

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Ben Kim said:

considering none of their competitors are even doing 24S 100V wheels, i think Gotway can take their time perfecting the 126V design before releasing it to the masses. 

I want my 126-volt Nikola NEXT WEEK! 

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

they can.. but when have you ever heard of them taking their time to perfect something xD one can only hope

BTW, some people think I have a lot of wheels 

[houseofjob]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

I want my 126-volt Nikola NEXT WEEK! 

BTW, some people think I have a lot of wheels 

High speed test!,....oh wait 

[Asphalt]

Any of you engineering wizards able to estimate the top speed of a 126V Nikola?

Also, what would the theoretical top speed of a 126V MSX be?

[Rywokast]

24 minutes ago, Asphalt said:

Any of you engineering wizards able to estimate the top speed of a 126V Nikola?

Also, what would the theoretical top speed of a 126V MSX be?

not a wizard by any means but by using basic math around 85-90 km/h.. theoretically.. nikola probably five kmph less give or take,, that's barring any other hardware restrictions and >80% battery with an average weight rider.. some a little less some a little more depends on a few factors.. but in other words, quick enough to easily kill you. do I think they will actually be capable of doing that speed without spontaneously blowing something? questionable at best

Edited August 4, 2019 by Rywokast

[Old Glider]

Wow Marty, why u gotta do this to me? I finally made up my mind to order a 84v 2100wh Nikola and you drop this bomb - you’re killing me!

[Asphalt]

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

around 85-90 km/h.. theoretically.. nikola probably five kmph less give or take

I’m guessing wind resistance is going to make it nearly impossible to reach those speeds, but it’s nice to know that you’ll never have to worry about hearing beeps because you’ll probably never get close to those speeds.

I’m seeing the 126V as a “safer” wheel, since the cut-out limit is going to be near impossible to reach.

[stephen]

12 minutes ago, Asphalt said:

I’m guessing wind resistance is going to make it nearly impossible to reach those speeds, but it’s nice to know that you’ll never have to worry about hearing beeps because you’ll probably never get close to those speeds.

I’m seeing the 126V as a “safer” wheel, since the cut-out limit is going to be near impossible to reach.

I'm sure someone will try it 😬😬😬

[Darrell Wesh]

28 minutes ago, stephen said:

I'm sure someone will try it 😬😬😬

 

40 minutes ago, Asphalt said:

I’m guessing wind resistance is going to make it nearly impossible to reach those speeds, but it’s nice to know that you’ll never have to worry about hearing beeps because you’ll probably never get close to those speeds.

I’m seeing the 126V as a “safer” wheel, since the cut-out limit is going to be near impossible to reach.

All you have to do is keep leaning with relatively straight legs. It won’t be hard at all. The hard part- at least to me- is keeping straight legs as at 35+ speeds you can get airborne from the slightest bumps or dips without adequate leg suspension. So just that mentality that it’s reckless to ride with straight legs at those speeds would stop me. 

The more you bend the more you shift your weight back. Once you start hinging at the hips, that’s even more weight behind you. 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Darrell Wesh]

I love using this picture of chooch (since I don’t have any of my own). This low posture he’s in looks fast, very aerodynamic, but that’s a lot of weight shifted to the rear to create stability and to stay on the pedals in case of a bump. 

A lot of people look at how low he is and compare it to a downhill long boarders “speed tuck” but chooch isn’t doing this for aerodynamics and to reach higher speeds. Unlike downhill long boarding this posture is strictly for stability. 

He has to work hard to reach high speeds while if he just stood tall with straight legs and leaned he could get that top speed with much less effort. 

Of course at 40+mph with a high center of gravity and no leg suspension (tall posture and straight legs) would feel downright suicidal. The slightest road imperfections would jostle you around on the wheel. 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[wheelr]

16 hours ago, Planemo said:

less current = less heat which is the bane of all electronics. This jump to 126v from (for example) my lowly 58v could mean substantially less heat in the system and less weight due to much thinner conductors

 Agreed, these are the obvious benefits, and a higher top speed, but like many said, we are likely not going to make much use of it. If GotWay really wants to unleash the power of their 126V system, they need to couple it with a more powerful motor, and give use more low end torque and faster acceleration off the line. That could truly set them apart.

This got me wondering, what is the 0-60mph equivalent for EUCs?  

Edited August 4, 2019 by wheelr

[Asphalt]

@Darrell Wesh Looks like you’re right about wind resistance being a minor factor. This article suggest you only need a 9.8-degree forward lean to compensate for 90kph wind.

So basically the limiting factor is fear of getting bounced off the wheel at high speed.

I wonder if bindings are going to start becoming a thing for speed demons?

[Planemo]

37 minutes ago, wheelr said:

This got me wondering, what is the 0-60mph equivalent for EUCs?  

Could be checked on rolling road with a suitable jig. In fact, I think the manufacturers should be doing this as part of their R&D. That way, they could run wheels up in controlled conditions, applying suitable load up until the wheels fail. The repeatability is far better than sending testers up random hills or whatnot to give them 'some sort of idea' about the wheels ability.

[Meelosh123]

1 hour ago, Asphalt said:

So basically the limiting factor is fear of getting bounced off the wheel at high speed.

It's one thing to simply be able to go 30, 40, 50+ mph.  It's another thing to go 30, 40, 50+ mph comfortably and safely, over cracks and bumps and other lousy surfaces, while being able to come to a come to a stop as fast as possible.