EUC World application & online service

[travsformation]

19 hours ago, Lefteris said:

And there are many videos that show how to use data from csv and other formats, like this video

Unfortunately, the one you posted is only for data recorded with the GoPro itself. Will see if I can find a way to imort gps data, either with GoPro's quick or another editor

[Slartibartfast]

On 11/27/2019 at 6:57 PM, Seba said:

I'm thinking about similar feature directly in EUC World. This, however, would need to rewrite the entire application. Now EUC World still contains parts of code made by other WheelLog developers under GPL license. Unfortunately, this makes legally impossible to use some best video processing libraries that usually are commercial, closed source software (thus GPL incompatible). But perspective of creating fancy videos with appealing overlays like graphs, map, terrain profile, weather data, speed dials etc. is so tempting...

How is this so?

I know there are plenty of commercial apps that can't use GPL modules because they don't want to release their own code but there isn't anything preventing a GPL program from using closed source modules is there? That is unless you're talking about commercial packages which require a key or something and you don't want to release your own key into the source, but actually using a closed source library in a GPL product should be fine, no?

Edited November 28, 2019 by Slartibartfast

[Seba]

21 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

How is this so?

I know there are plenty of commercial apps that can't use GPL modules because they don't want to release their own code but there isn't anything preventing a GPL program from using closed source modules is there? That is unless you're talking about commercial packages which require a key or something and you don't want to release your own key into the source, but actually using a closed source library in a GPL product should be fine, no?

GPL is very specific license that is called a "viral license", because it requires that whatever you add to GPL project will also a subject of this license (and all its terms). This is why you cannot use closed source code components in a GPL-licensed project, as the requirement to make the source code of the entire project open would violate component license. This is why many open-source projects are licensed under much more liberal, non-viral licenses like MIT, MPL or BSD.

[Lefteris]

I was about to say the same thing complete change of licensing so you can implement things that help the app grow but stay safe for the users and as open as possible for transparency. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Lefteris

[Slartibartfast]

12 hours ago, Seba said:

GPL is very specific license that is called a "viral license", because it requires that whatever you add to GPL project will also a subject of this license (and all its terms). This is why you cannot use closed source code components in a GPL-licensed project, as the requirement to make the source code of the entire project open would violate component license. This is why many open-source projects are licensed under much more liberal, non-viral licenses like MIT, MPL or BSD.

Yes, I am familiar with the "viral" nature of GPL but this is in relation to using code from GPL projects in your own project (meaning you'd have to release your own code). Given EUC World is already GPL and the code (should) already be available as it is, adding closed source libraries shouldn't affect it. The GPL is kind of "forwards contagious" in that it must also apply to all derived works, rather than being "backwards contagious" in that everything it uses must also be GPL. Unless you've specifically used the source to libraries with licences that prevent publishing of modifications you should be able to release all that you have, which is what the GPL requires.

As a general rule GPL developers will usually try to use open source components when developing GPL software, presumably because they agree with the sentiment of the GPL itself, but there's no requirement to only use GPL libraries is there? If that were the case there would be no GPL code that uses DirectX or .Net or other such libraries, which surely there is.

What libraries in particular are you concerned about?

Edited November 29, 2019 by Slartibartfast

[Slartibartfast]

Please do tell me if I'm wrong, but I've done a non-trivial study of these issues over the years and I've never been aware of GPL projects specifically being prevented from using any other libraries themselves. If this is the case can you direct me to somewhere where this is explained? It's something I would like to be aware of.

[Seba]

18 hours ago, Lefteris said:

I was about to say the same thing complete change of licensing so you can implement things that help the app grow but stay safe for the users and as open as possible for transparency. 

All this is really a matter of trust. The fact that the sources of the application were published somewhere is not a guarantee that its binary version was compiled exactly from these sources and doesn'c contains additional things. The dishonest developer can advertise his application as an open source, publish sources on GitHub, and then in the Google Play store publish an application that contains malicious code that will not be found in the published sources. In case of such niche apps like WheelLog or EUC it is practically impossible to be sure that what is installed on the phone, was created exclusively and entirely from published sources. So really - it's all about trust. Something that is most important in these times.

10 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

As a general rule GPL developers will usually try to use open source components when developing GPL software, presumably because they agree with the sentiment of the GPL itself, but there's no requirement to only use GPL libraries is there? If that were the case there would be no GPL code that uses DirectX or .Net or other such libraries, which surely there is.

From official GPL FAQ (https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#SystemLibraryException):

Can I link a GPL program with a proprietary system library?

Both versions of the GPL have an exception to their copyleft, commonly called the system library exception. If the GPL-incompatible libraries you want to use meet the criteria for a system library, then you don't have to do anything special to use them; the requirement to distribute source code for the whole program does not include those libraries, even if you distribute a linked executable containing them.

In general, reading the entire FAQ will give you a better idea of what is allowed and what is not. I would like to point out that I am not a lawyer. Perhaps there is some exception that allows you to use a proprietary library in a GPL application. I don't know such exception and I don't think it exists. Besides, I don't think I have the right to interpret the will of the predecessors who created the code I'm basing on.  For some reason Kevin Cooper chose GPL license instead of e.g. MIT or MPL.

10 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

What libraries in particular are you concerned about?

I haven't devoted much time to it yet, because I'm busy with the application for Samsung watches. So far I'm just basing on my previous experience with creating applications for Windows. There I used a few interesting libraries, which did not allow to use in open source projects. When I finish the application for Tizen I will devote more time to finding a way to mix the image from the camera with dynamically generated graphics in real time and save it in the form of a movie right away on a phone. But so far I haven't found anything like that, and I've been looking at OpenCV or ffmpeg. I also tested Camera2 API.

[Lavabo]

Instead of a watch, since i wear Flexmeter protection, is there an option for smart glass integration ?  Maybe its not a good option, ive not tried both, but better than if you have to  hold your phone in hands.

otherwise you use the watch  on a velcro over your wrist protection ? on a pole on your helmet next to the miror? lol

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

4 hours ago, Lavabo said:

otherwise you use the watch  on a velcro over your wrist protection?

I´m waiting for 2 piece Velcro watch wrist strap and then it should look like this nice Photoshop picture.
I will put the watch strap through the two slots and fix it under the upper brace with Velcro.
The wrist band will be cut short on both sides so that it lies as thin as possible between the hand and the upper brace. More precisely, between the brace and the inner fabric. Probably I need 2 straps, because I want to have the strap with the fixed end piece at the watch.

Or I will sew both end pieces together in the appropriate length and leave them at the flexmeter (non Velcro version). The wristbands have quick-release pins and so the watch is quickly removed and can be returned to the standard wristband if necessary. At least if you turn the bracelet 180° to get the pins.

Edited November 29, 2019 by buell47

[Seba]

45 minutes ago, Lavabo said:

Instead of a watch, since i wear Flexmeter protection, is there an option for smart glass integration ?  Maybe its not a good option, ive not tried both, but better than if you have to  hold your phone in hands.

Smart glass integration would be cool, and I've even researched this but there are some limitations. First, most smartglasses aren't cheap. Some are great, but expensive (like Vuzix). Some are limited in data they display, as they are designed for runners of cyclists (like Raptors). No way to display custom data like temperature, battery level etc. Some needs wired HDMI connection (like Vufine). Some are just bulky (like Moverio). So at least for now smartglasses are just interesting gadgets.

Have you tried voice messages from EUC World? Personally I found that combination of BT earphones/helmet comm and Flic button is very useful. You get instant alarms whenever you exceed speed, load or temperature.  You can get actual parameters (like speed, temperature, battery, ride time, distance and more) as a speech message with one click of wireless button. I keep mine inside my jackets pocket, so it's enough to tap it with my winter glove.

[Fuzzypixel]

14 hours ago, buell47 said:

I´m waiting for 2 piece Velcro watch wrist strap and then it should look like this nice Photoshop picture.
I will put the watch strap through the two slots and fix it under the upper brace with Velcro.
The wrist band will be cut short on both sides so that it lies as thin as possible between the hand and the upper brace. More precisely, between the brace and the inner fabric. Probably I need 2 straps, because I want to have the strap with the fixed end piece at the watch.

Or I will sew both end pieces together in the appropriate length and leave them at the flexmeter (non Velcro version). The wristbands have quick-release pins and so the watch is quickly removed and can be returned to the standard wristband if necessary. At least if you turn the bracelet 180° to get the pins.

I got this stretchy band for my pebble and it works great, I wear it over the flexmeter when riding and then wear the watch on my wrist the rest of the day, just takes a few seconds to adjust

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RB6JZWV?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Fuzzypixel
Added a pic, typos

[LZMutant]

Hi Seba - 

Thank you for all you're doing for the community!

I bought an android phone specifically to run Wheel Log and then EUC World - I've only had it a couple of weeks.  I have registered online with EUC World but have a problem...

The phone isn't "active," meaning there's no cellular line associated with it.  I just pair it with the wheel on Bluetooth and go.  This works for Wheel Log, but when I use EUC World I am prompted to "log in," which I can't do because...well, there's no cel service.

Is there a workaround for this for those of us who primarily use iPhone and just have a dedicated Android for riding around?

Either way, again, thank you for everything!

[DjPanJan]

2 minutes ago, LZMutant said:

Is there a workaround for this for those of us who primarily use iPhone and just have a dedicated Android for riding around?

Either way, again, thank you for everything!

Just make Wifi/bluetooth hotspot and conect andoid to iphones internet. 

[LZMutant]

36 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

Just make Wifi/bluetooth hotspot and conect andoid to iphones internet. 

Brilliant.  Thank you so much!!!

[DjPanJan]

2 hours ago, LZMutant said:

Brilliant.  Thank you so much!!!

If you new on android i recommend you 5 things:

1 turn off automatic updates in gogle play store

2 in settings aplication disable non used garbage facebook twiter etc.Its just preinstaled bloatware in phone.

3 dont forget in batery management give EUC world priority to never turn off/safe batery mode

4 in bluetoth or batery options disable bluetooth (power saver or similar name just turn bluetoth always on )

5 enjoy you android phone

[Joker10]

Thanks Seba, I finally have a decent app to use with my wheel.  Used it today and it didn’t disconnect like every other app I have tried to use over the last 8 month has.  Correction, I finally have an excellent app to use with my wheel.  Thanks again.  

[Lefteris]

Btw I had a disconnection or two when using the phone for other things.. After disabling pip two days now not even one disconnection.. Strange? 

[Marty Backe]

Battery Usage

Just finished a 4-hour ride. EUC World consumed ~13% of my 4100wh phone battery.

GeoTracker only used ~3%.

That's a heavy penalty for sending data back to your server 🙁

[Slartibartfast]

On 11/29/2019 at 11:19 PM, Seba said:

From official GPL FAQ (https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#SystemLibraryException):

Can I link a GPL program with a proprietary system library?

Both versions of the GPL have an exception to their copyleft, commonly called the system library exception. If the GPL-incompatible libraries you want to use meet the criteria for a system library, then you don't have to do anything special to use them; the requirement to distribute source code for the whole program does not include those libraries, even if you distribute a linked executable containing them.

There are two other sections of the FAQ that are also relevant to the issue than the "System Library Exception".

These are the GPLIncompatibleLibs and the FSWithNFLibs sections:
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLIncompatibleLibs
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#FSWithNFLibs

The later of which states:

Quote

Can I write free software that uses nonfree libraries? (#FSWithNFLibs)

If you do this, your program won't be fully usable in a free environment. If your program depends on a nonfree library to do a certain job, it cannot do that job in the Free World. If it depends on a nonfree library to run at all, it cannot be part of a free operating system such as GNU; it is entirely off limits to the Free World.

So please consider: can you find a way to get the job done without using this library? Can you write a free replacement for that library?

If the program is already written using the nonfree library, perhaps it is too late to change the decision. You may as well release the program as it stands, rather than not release it. But please mention in the README that the need for the nonfree library is a drawback, and suggest the task of changing the program so that it does the same job without the nonfree library. Please suggest that anyone who thinks of doing substantial further work on the program first free it from dependence on the nonfree library.

Note that there may also be legal issues with combining certain nonfree libraries with GPL-covered free software. Please see the question on GPL software with GPL-incompatible libraries for more information.

This is essentially saying "release whatever you can" but is heavily implying that dependence on the nonfree library is regretful.

The other is even more convoluted and essentially says that only the copyright owner is allowed to grant exception to use non-free libraries in the project. I appreciate that one should release any code that uses a GPL product (ie. forward contagious) but requiring the GPL be abandoned in order to use a "free-beer" library seems counterproductive.

I know the Lesser-GPL licence exists (and others like MIT and Apache) which do of course allow using of closed source libraries, but these licences were largely created to roll-back the "forward contagious" nature of the GPL rather than the "backward contagious" aspect.

It seems a lot to throw away to switch to LGPL (or simular) in order to use a "free-beer" library. Is that really what needs to be done???

Edited December 2, 2019 by Slartibartfast

[Unventor]

So @Seba I got myself a Galaxy watch active 2 LTE this weekend on black Friday sale. But I can't use the LTE right now due to my service provider of sim cards. It is a low cost sister company. 

So I am looking forward to your Tizen version of EUC.WORLD app. I also have a flic2 button incoming. It begins to be as costly as following @Marty Backe 😁

[Seba]

9 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Battery Usage

Just finished a 4-hour ride. EUC World consumed ~13% of my 4100wh phone battery.

GeoTracker only used ~3%.

That's a heavy penalty for sending data back to your server 🙁

Unfortunately, some things are unavoidable. More features or more distance equals more battery depleted. Welcome to battery-powered world   Soon there will be an option for offline tracking, which will not require a continuous connection and should therefore noticeably reduce power consumption. Even then, EUC World may require more power than, say, Geo Tracker. This is because of different way both apps works. Geo Tracker just record basic GPS data and is idle most of the time. Contrary, EUC World is always active (even in background), because it has to receive data that flows continuously from EUC. It also has to process them constantly to provide alarms, messages etc. It's not just tour tracker, it's multifunctional app with many features that needs some resources to run.

However, 13% during 4 hours shouldn't be a major problem, as this is usually the time after which EUC needs to be recharged / rider need some rest. This is a good opportunity to charge the phone as well. So I wouldn't name this a "heavy" penalty :-)

Just take a look at battery graph under my longest ever EUC tour - https://euc.world/tour/577799012031245 - 214 km (133 mi) in 13 hours (almost 9 hours of riding). I had to recharge my KS-18XL three times, but at the same time I charged my phone (Huawei P30 Pro) only twice, even if my phone discharge rate was much higher than your 13 % / 4h. So in practice, this is not a problem at all. It is also worth mentioning that during entire tour I was constantly listening to Spotify tunes and taking a lot of pictures.

[Seba]

On 11/30/2019 at 8:44 PM, DjPanJan said:

Just make Wifi/bluetooth hotspot and conect andoid to iphones internet. 

In nearest future offline tracking option will be added, so you won't need constant Internet connection during your ride.

[Seba]

On 11/30/2019 at 8:40 PM, LZMutant said:

The phone isn't "active," meaning there's no cellular line associated with it.  I just pair it with the wheel on Bluetooth and go.  This works for Wheel Log, but when I use EUC World I am prompted to "log in," which I can't do because...well, there's no cel service.

Is there a workaround for this for those of us who primarily use iPhone and just have a dedicated Android for riding around?

First, EUC World doesn't ask or prompt you to log in. You don't have to be signed in (or even to have an account at euc.world online service) to use this app for everyday riding. Only if you want to use tour tracking feature you need to sign in. Of course it's good to be signed in as I'm working on some useful features that will require online service account. These include easy roaming app settings between multiple phones, backing up your settings or storing/analyzing CSV logs.

[fryman]

14 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Battery Usage

Just finished a 4-hour ride. EUC World consumed ~13% of my 4100wh phone battery.

GeoTracker only used ~3%.

That's a heavy penalty for sending data back to your server 🙁

It’s seems to require a lot of data between us and the server also.

I will do another test but if data is high I will not be able to use the app.

Edited December 2, 2019 by fryman

[travsformation]

17 minutes ago, Seba said:

However, 13% during 4 hours shouldn't be a major problem, as this is usually the time after which EUC needs to be recharged / rider need some rest. This is a good opportunity to charge the phone as well. So I wouldn't name this a "heavy" penalty :-)

That's for sure! Using Komoot + EUC World while riding in a low-signal area I get about  40% discharge/h on my 4-year-old Samsung S7