KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[mrelwood]

There used to be a video of this custom built MAX EUC that showed how the suspension operates as it was ridden over a 4"x4" log. I can't find the actual video anymore, but this is from the same builder:

 

But that is a very extreme example of an EUC suspension with more than 4" of suspension travel, and of course not viable for a regular EUC.

 

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I would lose grip at critical moments.

A suspension in individual pedals only reacts to your feet pressing against the pedals. They don't move up and down on their own. Situations where a regular EUC shakes your foot off the pedals, suspended pedals do not, since instead of pushing your feet up, the suspension compresses. Just half an inch of suspension travel already increases pedal grip greatly.

Rockwheel GT16 already has suspension, separately on the pedals. Soft sneakers can have up to half an inch of suspension travel, separately for the left and right foot. Either of these do not throw you off or decrease grip, but the exact opposite. 

 

5 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Just like how they say 1600wh, I call it lying, you call it rounding just like a GW fanboy would say to defend GW.

And how is KS or any other manufacturer different in this regard?

 

5 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

they call the wheel a 19" wheel when you can clearly see the tire says 18"x3"

For a while I had a tire on my MSX that said 2.50-14". Did it make Gotway lie five times as much?

 

3 hours ago, Unventor said:

Same reason why people buy cars with power steering.

What a horrible idea! It will steer on it's own and cause you to crash! It can never work!

 

31 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

16x. Will it also let us dip into 3.0V?

It would be a big surprise if it wouldn't.

[eddiemoy]

18 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

There used to be a video of this custom built MAX EUC that showed how the suspension operates as it was ridden over a 4"x4" log. I can't find the actual video anymore, but this is from the same builder:

 

But that is a very extreme example of an EUC suspension with more than 4" of suspension travel, and of course not viable for a regular EUC.

 

A suspension in individual pedals only reacts to your feet pressing against the pedals. They don't move up and down on their own. Situations where a regular EUC shakes your foot off the pedals, suspended pedals do not, since instead of pushing your feet up, the suspension compresses. Just half an inch of suspension travel already increases pedal grip greatly.

Rockwheel GT16 already has suspension, separately on the pedals. Soft sneakers can have up to half an inch of suspension travel, separately for the left and right foot. Either of these do not throw you off or decrease grip, but the exact opposite. 

 

And how is KS or any other manufacturer different in this regard?

 

For a while I had a tire on my MSX that said 2.50-14". Did it make Gotway lie five times as much?

 

What a horrible idea! It will steer on it's own and cause you to crash! It can never work!

 

It would be a big surprise if it wouldn't.

If a 16” NB P can roll over 3” bricks, I would expect joes’s 26” to be able to at least do 4”. 

KS doesn’t say their wheel is 1600wh, the say 1554wh.  

 

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

If a 16” NB P can roll over 3” bricks, I would expect joes’s 26” to be able to at least do 4”. 

KS doesn’t say their wheel is 1600wh, the say 1554wh.  

 

Who really cares Eddie? It's like arguing about a quarter of an inch. Just ride the wheels and enjoy them and don't get caught up in the numbers game.

[eddiemoy]

28 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Who really cares Eddie? It's like arguing about a quarter of an inch. Just ride the wheels and enjoy them and don't get caught up in the numbers game.

You are right who cares if the manufacture is lying about the capacity of their battery pack unless the 1600 from Gw, or rather the 1554wh battery pack isn’t really 1554wh...  it is really 1165wh since Gw only lets you run their battery down to 3.3v per cell.  It’s 25% restriction on the usage of the battery pack that you paid for.  I would be pissed that I’m only really getting 1165wh battery pack when they advertised 1600wh.  Now that is a huge difference!

now the question is with their plus product advertising 1845wh, does that mean it really is a 1383wh battery pack.  Still won’t give you the range of a 1554wh KS wheel?  Hm...

[Jon Stern]

37 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Who really cares Eddie? It's like arguing about a quarter of an inch. Just ride the wheels and enjoy them and don't get caught up in the numbers game.

An inch can make a big difference when riding, but let's get back to talking about EUCs, shall we? 😜

[Fuzzypixel]

2 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

An inch can make a big difference when riding, but let's get back to talking about EUCs, shall we? 😜

An inch can make a difference in all kinds of activities 😉

[eddiemoy]

3 minutes ago, Fuzzypixel said:

An inch can make a difference in all kinds of activities 😉

Not if you already have 12 inches.  

[Kens]

10 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

An inch can make a big difference when riding, but let's get back to talking about EUCs, shall we? 😜

 

6 minutes ago, Fuzzypixel said:

An inch can make a difference in all kinds of activities 😉

 

2 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Not if you already have 12 inches.  

Oh yes mine is 4.1" thicc..

Alright let's moved on 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

If a 16” NB P can roll over 3” bricks, I would expect joes’s 26” to be able to at least do 4”.

It wasn’t about ”being able to”. NB can do 5” with skills. It was about ”how” the suspension operates.

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

KS doesn’t say their wheel is 1600wh, the say 1554wh.  

Ford says my car has a 1.8 liter engine. They lie, it’s actually 1.798. Yet this is the first time I write about it on a forum.

The label on a single 16S battery pack says 410Wh, or was it 415. Yet it is marketed as a 840Wh wheel. They lie.

[Rywokast]

13 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

It wasn’t about ”being able to”. NB can do 5” with skills. It was about ”how” the suspension operates.

Ford says my car has a 1.8 liter engine. They lie, it’s actually 1.798. Yet this is the first time I write about it on a forum.

The label on a single 16S battery pack says 410Wh, or was it 415. Yet it is marketed as a 840Wh wheel. They lie.

410.. i was so confused when i saw the battery the first time and it was 410.. like 840 is already a random number, but now i see its a random made up number... like why would you not say 850 or 900 or something why 840 lmao

Edited June 11, 2019 by Rywokast

[eucinsea]

Anyone know the latest on the KS16x? Like final color, I heard about a 2200w upgrade on a youtube video. The poster is probably on this forum as they had a screenshot of the forum and a post by @Jason McNeil. Maybe other info about final stats and if first batch are in production? 

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

The Nikola Plus specs do look very good though and makes the 16x look like a dinosaur before it even came out! 

 A Nikola or a 16x wouldn't be an upgrade for me but a sidegrade and a plan B. If my MSX dies I am screwed.

Yeah I am sort of torn also. I love the 16X style, quality. If I was selecting between the 84v Nikola and the 16X I’m pretty certain that I would choose the 16X. However, throw those 100v specs into the mix and you just next-leveled the entire discussion. The 100v Nikola has me curious; but, not convinced. Price tags kind of up there for extra speed when the 84v versions are already pretty fast. My drooling over the idea of having a 40mph wheel, is tempered by a degree of frugality; not entirely sure it’s worth the extra money. I will reassess how I feel in the fall. The jury is still out for me.

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Suspension would be perfect for seated riding! I have become quite decent at riding seated on my MSX but even with 20 PSI sometimes I feel like i'm gonna break my ass. Sure I put pressure on my feet and offload the wheel from my butt if I can see 100% of all bumps but an optional suspension with lockout / no lockout and no penalty for having it other than price would be a cool option. An inherent disadvantage would be the added complexity of such a feature though.

My friend rides a Lacroix which is a rather expensive electric longboard. It has a top speed of 65km/h and range of about 50km (less if he rides top speed). We cruise together sometimes and we both ride between 30-40kmh. Then he goes home, checks the bearings, sometimes cleans them, changes trucks, or bushing/shock blocks, maybe adds new tape. I just ride mine. Wipe it down now and then if it's muddy or dusty. He asked me once why I don't open it and check the bearings. I just laughed.

Zero maintenance. Just the way I like it. 3000km on it. 2000km the first 4 months. 1000km the past 30 days.

I tried an 18XL last week and it clicked instantly. It was a perfect fit. I didn't have to force myself to like it like with the MSX. The MSX took me 2000km to get used to. Now after riding it even more it feels agile and before I thought it was hardly manageable. The Nikola has an attractive spec but the 16x has the fact that it is a Kingsong. If it is like a smaller 18XL then I am sold. The Nikola Plus specs do look very good though and makes the 16x look like a dinosaur before it even came out! 

A Nikola or a 16x wouldn't be an upgrade for me but a sidegrade and a plan B. If my MSX dies I am screwed.

The Nikola is a very natural feeling/riding wheel. Zero acclimation period. IMO it has a better balance (not the electronic type) than the KS18XL and MSX. I think it's the best feeling wheel that I've ridden.

[Michael Tucker]

8 hours ago, Lutalo said:

I wouldn’t consider selling my 18L for the 16X because the 18L is such a unique wheel; dynamically, it’s superior to the XL. With the 18L KS created an 18” wheel that handles almost like a 16S; very unique, and in a lot of ways my favorite wheel. The 18L was easily overshadowed by its more lumbering brother because the North American market apparently wants range to conquer our wide open spaces a little more than they want agility.

FINALLY someone else acknowledges that the KS18L handles better than the KS18XL. I sold my KS18L to buy an XL and I noticed right away that although it had many improvements, it was not balanced like the KS18L, which is a masterpiece and absolutely becomes an extension of your body.

You know the problem with waiting for testers' opinions is that you never really know how a wheel feels until you own one for yourself. I would have never known about the handling difference between the 18L and 18XL until I bought them both. The 16X could perform like an 18XL, but handle like an 18L. There's only one way to tell about the 16X...buy it and compare!

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

FINALLY someone else acknowledges that the KS18L handles better than the KS18XL. I sold my KS18L to buy an XL and I noticed right away that although it had many improvements, it was not balanced like the KS18L, which is a masterpiece and absolutely becomes an extension of your body.

You know the problem with waiting for testers' opinions is that you never really know how a wheel feels until you own one for yourself. I would have never known about the handling difference between the 18L and 18XL until I bought them both. The 16X could perform like an 18XL, but handle like an 18L. There's only one way to tell about the 16X...buy it and compare!

i also agree the 18XL did feel pretty lumbering... hoping the 16x and nikola are more peppy.. ill take faster acceleration/responsiveness over more top speed any day

[Mono]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I think it's the best feeling wheel that I've ridden.

damn! 

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

The 16X could perform like an 18XL, but handle like an 18L. There's only one way to tell about the 16X...buy it and compare

Hopefully I will be able to compare with my KS18L with Jason pedals. I don’t recall how it was with standard pedals any more. Only that it felt better with Jason pedals. 

Anyway I will post ASAP I get ownership of a unit 😁

[eddiemoy]

3 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

FINALLY someone else acknowledges that the KS18L handles better than the KS18XL. I sold my KS18L to buy an XL and I noticed right away that although it had many improvements, it was not balanced like the KS18L, which is a masterpiece and absolutely becomes an extension of your body.

You know the problem with waiting for testers' opinions is that you never really know how a wheel feels until you own one for yourself. I would have never known about the handling difference between the 18L and 18XL until I bought them both. The 16X could perform like an 18XL, but handle like an 18L. There's only one way to tell about the 16X...buy it and compare!

The 18L does feel better balanced than the 18XL.   Not sure what it is.  The 7 extra lbs make a huge difference or is it because the XL was a retrofit not design from the ground up.  I still have the 18L, but I hope to replace it with the 16X.   I’m sure the 16X will feel better off the line than the 18L, it is just physics.  Smaller diameter wheel will feel better, less hesitation.   

[Jeff Earl]

Ahem... back towards the topic at hand. Does anyone know if there will be a public opportunity to view the 16x when it makes its way through NYC? I’d love to catch a glimpse of it in person. I’m trying to reserve judgement until I actually see/experience the machine. Full disclosure: 1) I have a deposit for one with @Jason Mcneil  at eWheels 2) My heart sank a bit when I saw some of the initial (seemingly unflattering) photos that have been circulating 3) My only wheel experience to date has been ~700mi on an Inmotion V8; I’ve yet to declare my allegiance to Kingsong or Gotway

How can I sign up to see the demo unit first-hand?

[eddiemoy]

29 minutes ago, Jeff Earl said:

Ahem... back towards the topic at hand. Does anyone know if there will be a public opportunity to view the 16x when it makes its way through NYC? I’d love to catch a glimpse of it in person. I’m trying to reserve judgement until I actually see/experience the machine. Full disclosure: 1) I have a deposit for one with @Jason Mcneil  at eWheels 2) My heart sank a bit when I saw some of the initial (seemingly unflattering) photos that have been circulating 3) My only wheel experience to date has been ~700mi on an Inmotion V8; I’ve yet to declare my allegiance to Kingsong or Gotway

How can I sign up to see the demo unit first-hand?

Join the "NYC E-rider" group, the meet up for the 16X demo will be posted there.  Seems like the meet up will be 1-2 weeks from now, been asked to try to keep our schedules free by @houseofjob.  You will also get to try other wheels during the meetup and chat with everyone.  It is a great experience.  Then after, we usually have a group ride.

[Mike Sacristan]

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

There used to be a video of this custom built MAX EUC that showed how the suspension operates as it was ridden over a 4"x4" log. I can't find the actual video anymore, but this is from the same builder:

 

But that is a very extreme example of an EUC suspension with more than 4" of suspension travel, and of course not viable for a regular EUC.

 

A suspension in individual pedals only reacts to your feet pressing against the pedals. They don't move up and down on their own. Situations where a regular EUC shakes your foot off the pedals, suspended pedals do not, since instead of pushing your feet up, the suspension compresses. Just half an inch of suspension travel already increases pedal grip greatly.

Rockwheel GT16 already has suspension, separately on the pedals. Soft sneakers can have up to half an inch of suspension travel, separately for the left and right foot. Either of these do not throw you off or decrease grip, but the exact opposite. 

It would be a big surprise if it wouldn't.

The suspension in the clip posted is the kind that I mean and the kind that I thought we were discussing. That was some crazy Mad Max shit though and half that suspension would be more feasible. I did not understand that we were discussing a dampening or shock absorbing effect from pedals or shoes although I understand the need for that as well. I ride with flat shoes and sometimes with boots that have a bit of a heel. And I also have some super fluffy Zumba shoes that are quite a laugh to ride on. They really absorb and dampen vibrations. The only bad part is that they don't tell me much about the surface I am riding on and the squish counteracts the strong/hard pedal mode a bit. When I ride with my thin soled shoes I can "feel" the surface i'm riding on a lot better and with that interpretation I can ride accordingly. Anyway... dampening or not, suspension or not, my MSX with it's huge tire and 20 PSI does 95% of what I want it do so i'm good. And I am blessed to have 20 pairs of shoes (no i'm not a girl). Also if we had suspension or dampening we would probably find new things to complain about like not being able to jump properly.

[Mike Sacristan]

10 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

I don’t see why KS would abandon their battery algorithm.  So we should be able to use it until the cells go to 3.0V. 

Calling it an algorithm is very generous. Many equipment manufacturers limit battery usage so that it cuts you off at 3.3V. Many battery "experts" say that going below 3.3V will cause an unnecessary strain on the batteries and reduce their life cycles and capacity. As we are playing with our lives already I understand why EUC manufacturers are being conservative here which surprised me even more that Kingsong allows the non-conservative usage of going down to 3.0V. This gives a 33% increase in range so where my MSX would give me 100km the Kingsong would give me 133km and that's quite a big deal. Throttled or not. That would make my sidegrade an upgrade! But a smaller wheel with the same speed as the bigger wheel means more power through faster spinning so I wonder how dipping into 3.0V in that scenario will work out. I will however not make any assumptions for now especially with all the new variables coming into play. Time will tell and I will simply let someone else find out.  The 1600 (1554) Kingsong that dips down to 3.0V wheel competes with a 2100WH Gotway for range where the Gotway gets the drawback of increased weight and price.

Koowheel manufacture electric longboards among other things. They got criticised for voltage sag at 50% battery where they throttled the board from 25km/h to 18km/h. On the next revision of their board they shortened the cutoff and increased the top speed so that you can ride at 30km/h with barely any noticeable voltage sag until the end of the ride. The range also dropped from 22km to 15km.

Boosted board has no noticeable voltage sag. They have low range.

My Ownboard boards have noticeable voltage sag at below 40%. They have high range (30km). I would rather have 30km where the last 10km sag than have 20km and no sag.

I understand the change Kingsong made in the higher capacity wheels though as there are more batteries in parallel. How is the throttling between the 18L and the 18XL?

[Jeff Earl]

27 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Join the "NYC E-rider" group, the meet up for the 16X demo will be posted there.@houseofjob...

Bummer. Does that mean I have to reactivate my Facebook account? I may just have to wait until I get the real thing...

[Mike Sacristan]

12 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

If you enable tiltback on both, the 18L is actually 1 mile faster.  

 

 

12 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

The tiltback on the MSX is quite funny... it's such a slow gradual tiltback so I bet I could ride it at 58kmh. I'll do some lower speed tiltback tests tomorrow and see.

 

I did some tests today. I set tiltback to 12km/h and reached 18km/h. I then set tiltback to 18km/h and reached 24km/h. I set it again to 30km/h and hit 33km/h before I chickened out. The tiltback starts gradually and then increases exponentially so it is very pronounced after 6km/h over the set limit. At 2km/h over the speed limit it was slightly noticeable. The MSX top speed for 5 beeps is supposed to be 55km/h. If you set the tiltback to 48km/h and have a 6km/h buffer that will put you at 54km/h with a pronounced tiltback and 50km/h with a slightly noticeable tiltback. This is assuming that the tiltback continues to work in the same fashion at higher speeds. At speed I am already getting pushed back because of the wind. I thought I was used to tiltback from riding my One E+ but the feeling really changes at higher speedson the MSX. All these people riding at 50km/h wtf is wrong with you? 

How is the tiltback behaviour on Kingsong?

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

Hopefully I will be able to compare with my KS18L with Jason pedals. I don’t recall how it was with standard pedals any more. Only that it felt better with Jason pedals. 

Anyway I will post ASAP I get ownership of a unit 😁

The 16X will come equipped with its own version of larger pedals; although, not quite as large as the ones for which @Jason McNeil advocated.