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Jean Dublin

KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

FINALLY someone else acknowledges that the KS18L handles better than the KS18XL. I sold my KS18L to buy an XL and I noticed right away that although it had many improvements, it was not balanced like the KS18L, which is a masterpiece and absolutely becomes an extension of your body.

You know the problem with waiting for testers' opinions is that you never really know how a wheel feels until you own one for yourself. I would have never known about the handling difference between the 18L and 18XL until I bought them both. The 16X could perform like an 18XL, but handle like an 18L. There's only one way to tell about the 16X...buy it and compare!

I’ve been saying that the 18L is superior dynamically since the beginning, I spent a bunch of time testing them back to back to back. You are absolutely right though, you gotta go all in to know the truth.:D

Edited by Lutalo

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Jeff Earl said:


Bummer. Does that mean I have to reactivate my Facebook account? I may just have to wait until I get the real thing...

If you don't want to reactivate your facebook account, I think Chris will probably post it in the "Local Group Meet Ups" section here on the forum as well.

Edited by eddiemoy

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15 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

KS tiltback is meant to keep you in the safe zone.  So it will rock you back so you don't go much faster than you have set.  The 18L/XL is capable of the same speeds as the MSX, but KS chose to limit the speed to 50kph.  The tiltback needs a few km to get you back under so it is definitely possible to go over the set tiltback speed on the KS but only briefly.  I find it fast enough for my riding style and have hit the limit only a few times.  You can ride the tiltback, but it isn't recommended.  I ride the tiltback on the slower 16" wheel all the time.  But then again, I'm on the lighter side so I know the reserve is there.  

Most people that go with GW are speed demons.  IMO, there isn't any advantage other than that.  But at the higher speeds, it is much more dangerous when you fall and it is also almost impossible to hear the third alarm.  I don't know what GW is doing.  First to die riding at such high speeds will kill this hobby for all of us.

Yeah it's the rocking I am looking for. I would just like it to rock me back gently. The tiltback at 33kmh today got me sort of shitting my pants. I hit 45kmh now and then when I push a bit but the wind blows me up again so that I am straight and then I lose speed. So I straighten out my legs and sort of throw my body forward and get worse balance and realise what a stupid thing I am doing. I totally pooped my pants hitting 50km/h once. I can't even imagine how disconcerting tiltback would feel at that speed but then we have the other problem... no tiltback, no indication of overspeed, just you flying, leaning, guessing, until you guess wrong. And splat. Lucky for me i'm 45 and overly cautious (that's another way of saying coward).

The third alarm is a joke! They can play it at my funeral. Nobody would hear it anyway. :roflmao:

The funny thing about the Kingsong vs Gotway implementations are:

Gotway lets you do 55km/h from 4.2V to 3.42V. Speed is reduced to 45km/h from 3.42V to 3.3V and then the ride is over.
Kingsong lets you do 50km/h from 4.2V to 3.3V. Speed is reduced in a curve from 3.3V to 3.0V.
Gotway lets you do 48km/h with zero tiltback otherwise. Once again slower and they reserve power for the tiltback as tiltback is not free.

So who is the more cautious one? I would say Gotway. I wouldn't mind crawling from 3.3V to 3.0V! 33% more V is 33% more range in a perfectly linear world.

Gotway can do 60km/h and beyond but then you are pushing limits or at the very least testing them so I did not include that in my comparison above.

None of this is "my" problem for now as I don't ride fast enough to reach tiltback, no tiltback, overlean, overspeed, 5 beeps or anything. Which is why I bought a fast wheel. To not reach the limit.

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18 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Yeah it's the rocking I am looking for. I would just like it to rock me back gently. The tiltback at 33kmh today got me sort of shitting my pants. I hit 45kmh now and then when I push a bit but the wind blows me up again so that I am straight and then I lose speed. So I straighten out my legs and sort of throw my body forward and get worse balance and realise what a stupid thing I am doing. I totally pooped my pants hitting 50km/h once. I can't even imagine how disconcerting tiltback would feel at that speed but then we have the other problem... no tiltback, no indication of overspeed, just you flying, leaning, guessing, until you guess wrong. And splat. Lucky for me i'm 45 and overly cautious (that's another way of saying coward).

The third alarm is a joke! They can play it at my funeral. Nobody would hear it anyway. :roflmao:

The funny thing about the Kingsong vs Gotway implementations are:

Gotway lets you do 55km/h from 4.2V to 3.42V. Speed is reduced to 45km/h from 3.42V to 3.3V and then the ride is over.
Kingsong lets you do 50km/h from 4.2V to 3.3V. Speed is reduced in a curve from 3.3V to 3.0V.
Gotway lets you do 48km/h with zero tiltback otherwise. Once again slower and they reserve power for the tiltback as tiltback is not free.

So who is the more cautious one? I would say Gotway. I wouldn't mind crawling from 3.3V to 3.0V! 33% more V is 33% more range in a perfectly linear world.

Gotway can do 60km/h and beyond but then you are pushing limits or at the very least testing them so I did not include that in my comparison above.

None of this is "my" problem for now as I don't ride fast enough to reach tiltback, no tiltback, overlean, overspeed, 5 beeps or anything. Which is why I bought a fast wheel. To not reach the limit.

Good summary of their implementations.  

But again, I point out the 0.3V that gotway isn't allowing you to use is 25% of the energy in the pack.  you are paying for 1554wh(GW calls it 1600), but only getting 1165wh.  this is nuts!  

I know of no other product where you pay for it and only get 75% of the usage.

The tiltback at high speed isn't bad on the KS, it is gradual.  For a time the V10F had some weird firmware release that basically would throw people off since the tiltback was violent.    

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37 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

This is exactly what I wanted to hear and most of what matters. The 16X better be one hell of a wheel to compete. The pricing on the Nikola is a bit high though compared to what I paid for the MSX and the maxed out Nikola Plus 100v costs 50% more than what I paid for my MSX. From Ali and with no price reduction for now. And I got lucky with the MSX... since it worked flawlessly. As it should though since it is a proven model.

MSX 84v - $1625 (I paid $1500) Aliexpress (with no price "reduction" $2500)
Kingsong 18XL ($1700) Aliexpress (or $2400 if I buy in Europe)

Nikola - 24.4kg - 53.7lbs - $1737 Aliexpress
KS16x 24,3kg/53.5lbs - $2000 (eunicycles)
Nikola Plus - 100v 1845wh - 26.4kg/58lbs $2368 Aliexpress
Nikola - 100v 1230wh - 25.4kg 56lbs $1872 Aliexpress
Nikola - 84v 2100wh  - 26.4kg/58lbs $2287 Aliexpress

It's a mess.

But what else am I going to spend money on? I will wait for a price reduction and that will probably coincide with the release of the 16X. Now I just have to teach my wife to ride and I need to get rid of some of my unnecessary electric vehicles that aren't getting any love.

The 16x is still very interesting though for the simple fact that it is a Kingsong and entirely different wheel. Whether it is an awesome wheel remains to be seen.

Buying cereal in Sweden is easy. You never have to decide between Lucky Charms or Captain Crunch because they don't exist here. Oh the luxury of too many choices. :clap3:

It's amazing the factors that can affect the quality of the ride. On paper, you would not be able to pre-determine that the MSX has a high center-of-gravity. Same with so many wheels, including the Nikola.

When I bought the Nikola I was expecting "something", but I didn't know what. I kind of expected it to feel like the MSuper (it doesn't).

For the Nikola, I think what makes it so nice is the high & flat (relative) pedals, the seemingly perfect center-of-gravity, and very wide tire. All combined gives a great feeling wheel.

So on paper the 16X does look exciting. But how will it ultimately feel? I do look forward to comparing the two.

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2 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

But again, I point out the 0.3V that gotway isn't allowing you to use is 25% of the energy in the pack.  you are paying for 1554wh(GW calls it 1600), but only getting 1165wh.  this is nuts

So how many WH is kingsong xl if it's down to 3.0 cell?

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Just now, eddiemoy said:

Good summary of their implementations.  

But again, I point out the 0.3V that gotway isn't allowing you to use is 25% of the energy in the pack.  you are paying for 1554wh(GW calls it 1600), but only getting 1165wh.  this is nuts!  

I know of no other product where you pay for it and only get 75% of the usage.

The tiltback at high speed isn't bad on the KS, it is gradual.  For a time the V10F had some weird firmware release that basically would throw people off since the tiltback was violent.    

Thanks!

The way I have understood it is that Kingsong is the only EUC manufacturer who let you dip down to 3.0V. Inmotion doesn't, Ninebot don't, etc... or they would have better range. That says more about Kingsong being an outlier than it does about anyone else being a liar. Kingsong should market that implementation as a feature! Imagine everybody knew that they are getting 33% more battery usage out of their Kingsongs compared to other brands? Or am I wrong and is Gotway the only one stopping at 3.3V? I get 100km on my MSX. If a Z10 is actually a 1333wh battery in Gotway language then all of a sudden it becomes a long distance wheel to me. If that where the case I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Haha getting thrown off was my biggest worry but that's great to know then.
PLEASE DECELERATE!
PLOP!

Thanks for the info regarding the tiltback!

Every time you call Gotway a liar I think of this clip lmao:

 

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2 hours ago, Jeff Earl said:

My heart sank a bit when I saw some of the initial (seemingly unflattering) photos that have been circulating

The same happened to me when I saw the pictures, but the rendered pictures and the demo unit in this videos look acceptable.

 

2 hours ago, Jeff Earl said:

My only wheel experience to date has been ~700mi on an Inmotion V8; I’ve yet to declare my allegiance to Kingsong or Gotway :)

Same with me with just 550 km :)

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8 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

The way I have understood it is that Kingsong is the only EUC manufacturer who let you dip down to 3.0V

Ks18(x)l where the first. Imo every other wheel before stopped at 3.3.

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10 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Thanks!

The way I have understood it is that Kingsong is the only EUC manufacturer who let you dip down to 3.0V. Inmotion doesn't, Ninebot don't, etc... or they would have better range. That says more about Kingsong being an outlier than it does about anyone else being a liar. Kingsong should market that implementation as a feature! Imagine everybody knew that they are getting 33% more battery usage out of their Kingsongs compared to other brands? Or am I wrong and is Gotway the only one stopping at 3.3V? I get 100km on my MSX. If a Z10 is actually a 1333wh battery in Gotway language then all of a sudden it becomes a long distance wheel to me. If that where the case I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Haha getting thrown off was my biggest worry but that's great to know then.
PLEASE DECELERATE!
PLOP!

Thanks for the info regarding the tiltback!

Every time you call Gotway a liar I think of this clip lmao:

 

That clip, and Eddie, was perfect :laughbounce2::roflmao:

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1 minute ago, Chriull said:

Ks18(x)l where the first. Imo every other wheel before stopped at 3.3.

EVERYONE ELSE IS A LIAAAARRRR!!!! :roflmao::clap3:

Okay thanks for this info. It was exactly what I was looking for. So man this makes it worse. That makes the 18L and 18XL the outliers and not the manufacturer in itself.
Time will tell if the 16X keeps this behaviour! This is an important thing though because that's a ton of extra range and will smoothen out the price difference between the 16X and the Nikola 2100WH.

11 minutes ago, stephen said:

So how many WH is kingsong xl if it's down to 3.0 cell?

The Gotway 1600 and the Kingsong XL 1554WH are the same battery capacity. What is different is that Kingsong let's us continue to use the battery at lower voltage.

Gotway let's us go from 4.2V to 3.3V so that is 0.9V.
Kingsong let's us go from 4.2V to 3.0V so that is 1.2V or a 33% increase.
To get the increase you multiply the Gotway range by 1.33 or to get it in Gotway language (and non-Kingsong language) you multiply the 1554 * 1.33 to get 2066.82 which would be as close as you can get to the Nikola 2100WH.

To add to this you also have the fact that the Gotway MSX rarely charges up to 100% while the KS18XL does. So you are getting another 0.1V at the top with the XL which adds yet 10% more range. But I would stick to x 1.33 so as not to be overly optimistic. 

I know why you're asking this question @stephen. You got that raaaaange anxiety! If you've been getting 40 miles on your MSX then you would be getting 40 x 1,33 = 53 on the 18XL.

 

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1 minute ago, stephen said:

So how many WH is kingsong xl if it's down to 3.0 cell?

assuming 3.0 is zero, that would be 1554wh for KS.  since gw restrict to 3.3v as zero, you are getting 25% less energy.  so only getting 1165wh.  i think it is a big deal...

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27 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

assuming 3.0 is zero, that would be 1554wh for KS.  since gw restrict to 3.3v as zero, you are getting 25% less energy.  so only getting 1165wh.  i think it is a big deal...

In my real-world long range tests, I estimate that I'm getting ~10-percent more than the MSX. Noticeable but not a night-and-day difference. But I do appreciate that I can get a really long ride out of the KS18.

Of course for you this is academic since you're not a distance guy (yet).

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20 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Rockwheel goes down to 2.9V on the GT16, I believe. 2.6V is a typical number where cells apparently get permanent damage/refuse to be charged up again.

Nothing to know because it's not true. The voltage drop after 3.3V going to 3V is quite big, so you don't have too much actual capacity difference (as opposed to voltage difference) between the two. Marty's real world tests seem to show more like a ~10% difference between his MSX and 18XL.

And @eddiemoycapacity math is just nonsense, that's not how it works. The cells have the exact same capacity, whether you use it or stop early. You could exchange batteries between the wheels and be none the wiser. Only difference is the firmware.

I guess I should call all Kingsongs unsafe and irresponsible because they let you empty the battery (too) far, allowing for an easy overlean at low battery, and maybe even damage to the cells and premature aging. That's vastly exaggerated, but just to counter the obvious Gotway hating;)

the cells used in the 18L are the LGEBMJ11865, cutoff voltage is 2.5v same cutoff voltage as most other 18650 cells.  so using it down to 3v is fine, you still have .5v before cell cuts off.  why would this be considered unsafe?

actually as @Garrie Lim has pointed out GW uses the panasonic/sanyo batteries which are not 3500ah batteries, they are 3450ah.  So no they don't have exactly the same capacity.  

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

In my real-world long range tests, I estimate that I'm getting ~10-percent more than the MSX. Noticeable but not a night-and-day difference. But I do appreciate that I can get a really long ride out of the KS18.

Of course for you this is academic since you're not a distance guy (yet).

I have a question regarding the tests you did.
When you tested the 18XL vs the Msuper V3 (22 mile ride) you were above 50% on both wheels, ~57% on the MSuper and ~68% on the XL. That is ~10 percentage points which is different from percentage. On the 18XL test vs MSX you had 20% left under load.

A french rider did 88km and had 35% battery left. Still.. we don't know the voltages.

 

18 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Rockwheel goes down to 2.9V on the GT16, I believe. 2.6V is a typical number where cells apparently get permanent damage/refuse to be charged up again.

Nothing to know because it's not true. The voltage drop after 3.3V going to 3V is quite big, so you don't have too much actual capacity difference (as opposed to voltage difference) between the two. Marty's real world tests seem to show more like a ~10% difference between his MSX and 18XL.

And @eddiemoycapacity math is just nonsense, that's not how it works. The cells have the exact same capacity, whether you use it or stop early. You could exchange batteries between the wheels and be none the wiser. Only difference is the firmware.

I guess I should call all Kingsongs unsafe and irresponsible because they let you empty the battery (too) far, allowing for an easy overlean at low battery, and maybe even damage to the cells and premature aging. That's vastly exaggerated, but just to counter the obvious Gotway hating;)

At 3.3V it has just finished doing 50km/h and at 3.15 throttled to 30km/h? In the end we are just guessing numbers and perhaps 10%-15% would be a more conservative expected range increase than the whole V difference.

The Kingsong definitely seems less safe to me considering the voltages and speeds at play. I would be hesitant to do even 20km/h at 3.15V.
Also if constantly riding the battery to zero and 3.0V I am sure it would negatively affect battery capacity. The conservative 3.3V cutoff means I can ride it to zero and not worry about it.

After 100km I was at 24% and 70.2V. That puts me at 3.51V. I was getting 3 beeps at 35km/h. Do we have tiltback at lower speeds at lower battery on Gotway?

 

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1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Gotway let's us go from 4.2V to 3.3V so that is 0.9V.
Kingsong let's us go from 4.2V to 3.0V so that is 1.2V or a 33% increase.

If you look at a discharge curve like for example for the lg mj1 http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=608 it will definitely be an increase, but not 33%.

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18 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I have a question regarding the tests you did.
When you tested the 18XL vs the Msuper V3 (22 mile ride) you were above 50% on both wheels, ~57% on the MSuper and ~68% on the XL. That is ~10 percentage points which is different from percentage. On the 18XL test vs MSX you had 20% left under load.

A french rider did 88km and had 35% battery left. Still.. we don't know the voltages.

 

At 3.3V it has just finished doing 50km/h and at 3.15 throttled to 30km/h? In the end we are just guessing numbers and perhaps 10%-15% would be a more conservative expected range increase than the whole V difference.

The Kingsong definitely seems less safe to me considering the voltages and speeds at play. I would be hesitant to do even 20km/h at 3.15V.
Also if constantly riding the battery to zero and 3.0V I am sure it would negatively affect battery capacity. The conservative 3.3V cutoff means I can ride it to zero and not worry about it.

After 100km I was at 24% and 70.2V. That puts me at 3.51V. I was getting 3 beeps at 35km/h. Do we have tiltback at lower speeds at lower battery on Gotway?

 

cut off for cells are 2.5v.  not sure where the fear of going down to 3.0v came from.  the throttling KS does below 25% is very conservative.  not sure where you got the fear of 20km/h at 3.15v from. 

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25 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I have a question regarding the tests you did.
When you tested the 18XL vs the Msuper V3 (22 mile ride) you were above 50% on both wheels, ~57% on the MSuper and ~68% on the XL. That is ~10 percentage points which is different from percentage. On the 18XL test vs MSX you had 20% left under load.

A french rider did 88km and had 35% battery left. Still.. we don't know the voltages.

 

At 3.3V it has just finished doing 50km/h and at 3.15 throttled to 30km/h? In the end we are just guessing numbers and perhaps 10%-15% would be a more conservative expected range increase than the whole V difference.

The Kingsong definitely seems less safe to me considering the voltages and speeds at play. I would be hesitant to do even 20km/h at 3.15V.
Also if constantly riding the battery to zero and 3.0V I am sure it would negatively affect battery capacity. The conservative 3.3V cutoff means I can ride it to zero and not worry about it.

After 100km I was at 24% and 70.2V. That puts me at 3.51V. I was getting 3 beeps at 35km/h. Do we have tiltback at lower speeds at lower battery on Gotway?

 

Unfortunately I can't remember the details (too many rides). All that sticks with me right now is the ~10-percent number. However, I know that I have yet to actually do a full-range test on the XL since the first attempt, where I was deceived by WheelLog into thinking that I was out of juice.

I do want to repeat the test, but it takes so many hours to do :(. I need to wait for the right timing.

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1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

 I know why you're asking this question @stephen. You got that raaaaange anxiety! If you've been getting 40 miles on your MSX then you would be getting 40 x 1,33 = 53 on the 18XL

I did a full range test  yesterday i was going to do a post with all the details and videos and screenshots but here's a quick run down lol

I weigh 90kg naked but i didnt ride naked so add another few lol

I pumped tyre up to 40psi ,,i quite liked it actually, a little more on the legs but doesn't bounce up as much when you hit something,,, i was going about 20-27 mph mostly and only stopped a few times so battery drained more at these speeds,

It started beeping at about 25% and was still doing over 20mph when it got to about 15% then it was constant beep 3 times but i did inbetween 15-20 mph and i did that until the pedals kicked back at 0% battery  ,

I don't know what limit it supposed to do below 15% ?

Anyway 35miles at no limit speed (for me ) then 5 miles at around 20mph then 5 miles at 15mph-20mph , 

I have all the videos and screenshots if anyone's interested ,, they are only of wheel log and me riding on low percentage sometimes 0%

Here's some screens not in order but I'm sure you'll work it out lol .

I did like how you can go 15-20mph right until tiltback

Screenshot-20190610-133949-com-cooper-wh
Screenshot-20190610-121715-com-cooper-wh
Screenshot-20190610-135718.jpg
Screenshot-20190611-164803-com-android-g
Screenshot-20190611-164812-com-android-g

Screenshot-20190610-110221-com-cooper-wh
Screenshot-20190610-113402-com-android-k
Screenshot-20190610-115419-com-cooper-wh
Screenshot-20190610-114157-com-cooper-wh
Screenshot-20190610-101455-com-cooper-wh
Screenshot-20190610-121013-com-cooper-wh
Screenshot-20190610-092736-com-cooper-wh

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3 minutes ago, Chriull said:

If you look at a discharge curve like for example for the lg mj1 http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=608 it will definitely be an increase, but not 33%.

Thanks! Great link and makes a lot of sense. I could see the battery went from 2724 to 2315 from 3.3 to 3.0.

I remember when I used to just ride my wheel. Now here I am reading about batteries. On the other hand it helps me understand what i'm doing and why which is reassuring.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Chriull said:

If you look at a discharge curve like for example for the lg mj1 http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=608 it will definitely be an increase, but not 33%.

from your link the difference is 15% at constant 2amp discharge.  compared to another battery 9.34% if 2 amp constant discharge.  the batteries are rated for 3500mah when discharged to 2.5v.  so doesn't look like either wheel is getting the full use of the battery.  I understand leaving a buffer to protect the battery.  but i think .5v is a good buffer.

Edited by eddiemoy

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5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Unfortunately I can't remember the details (too many rides). All that sticks with me right now is the ~10-percent number. However, I know that I have yet to actually do a full-range test on the XL since the first attempt, where I was deceived by WheelLog into thinking that I was out of juice.

I do want to repeat the test, but it takes so many hours to do :(. I need to wait for the right timing.

Save it for the KS16X! Those tests are killer! :thumbup:

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