Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Camenbert]

7 hours ago, Treatz said:

We literally covered every single one of your points

I have a problem with "we" or in previous post "everyone", because you must admit I am not part of this "we" (and few others)

[meepmeepmayer]

Mods say:

Guys, everyone please stay on topic instead of going too meta of having personal fights or whatever.

Feel free to make a new thread about anything that may be related but doesn't really belong in this topic! That's what the forum is for: discussing anything electric unicycle. (We even have an "Forum Rules" forum for the meta stuff and an "Offtopic" forum for your personal fights)

[Paul A]

Importance of safe riding.

https://streamable.com/ueqv1w

[Sumako]

On 6/25/2021 at 5:20 AM, Gasmantle said:

Well said.

How on earth can anyone who condones the Alleycat race and blindly refuse to see the connection between Escooters and EUC's be taken seriously?

To answer your question:
Because there is ZERO connection between an Escooter and our EUCs.
To start off with it’s a unicycle, and electric one. Not a scooter. Scooters have at least 2 wheels. Next, the EUC is an electric  gyroscopic mono-cycle; aka Electric self balancing unicycle. Again, NOTHING to do with a scooter. These 2 completely different technologies come with different riding physics all together. To do what you saw in the ally cat race on aN “Escooter” would Have been next to impossible. I say this because when you ride an EUC it is as if the wheel is one with your body, your legs. That’s a huge advantage over any other EV, in areas of agility, response, and maneuvering. If you have a problem with this last line, that tells me and any experienced rider, that you don’t ride everyday, you are not working on bettering your riding skills. I’m not saying you have to ride like a nut case like some of these NYC riders. NO! But you do need enough time on your wheel, for your safety, to be able to maneuver out of the way of cars who other wise could have tapped you. Just so y’all know, I am a very conservative rider. I don’t do high speed shit. That’s because I am new to this sport/hobby. It’s also because I am rocking a Tesla V2. What I am able to do with this thing as a BEGINNER has blown my mind. Which is why I have a hard time understanding why y’all had zero confidence in more experienced riders who can out maneuver nearly anything in crowded traffic. 

Let’s get this CORRECT: Riders who do not agree with or not see the connection between Escooters and EUCs are NOT TROLLING you. They are telling an actual fact. A fact that is agreed upon by city leaders and the police departments. I learned this through discussing these issues with my city’s Bike and PEV department Executive Director. 

Lastly, the Escooter that NYC are talking about are the ones that look like a Honda Elite 80 from 1985. Those have been the Escooters who have been harming people. 

Pro-Tip y’all, instead of going after a youtuber over one stupid video, and going on and on about your fears of losing your ride; be smart, trying getting together a non-profit advocacy group for PEVs in your area. Take the time to learn how to do this. Connect with your local politicians. Make friends out of your city council members.

Bitching about Mickey is not going to help you here. Taking the lead in your community to protect your brother and sister riders in your area will.   

Edited June 27, 2021 by Sumako

[mrelwood]

In my country, e-kickscooters and EUCs are under the same traffic laws. Just sayin’.

[Sumako]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

In my country, e-kickscooters and EUCs are under the same traffic laws. Just sayin’.

ALL electric vehicles are under a simple piece of legislation that is for Electric vehicles. No faster than 25 mph on roads, not limit on bike paths, if your city has rental PEVs, helmets optional. 

[Planemo]

3 hours ago, Sumako said:

Because there is ZERO connection between an Escooter and our EUCs.

In your mind, yes. To some extent, in mine too. But for many lawmakers (and more importantly, Joe Public) they are not. And no amount of 'wishing they were' by either me or you is gonna change that, at least not at the moment, and certainly not in the UK.

3 hours ago, Sumako said:

 Which is why I have a hard time understanding why y’all had zero confidence in more experienced riders who can out maneuver nearly anything in crowded traffic. 

No one is saying the NYC riders don't have skill. Far from it. But barrelling through a pedestrian crossing like a cannonball with a mother and children already on it whilst shouting at them to get out of the way is not a skill. If the peds had run onto the crossing without notice and the rider had stopped on a dime with complete control, I would have been impressed. In fact, doing so would have helped our cause and shown what can be done on 1 wheel. What was shown required no skill whatsoever, let alone any consideration.

3 hours ago, Sumako said:

Bitching about Mickey is not going to help you here. Taking the lead in your community to protect your brother and sister riders in your area will.   

I agree in a way, bitching about Mick is not going to change anything overnight. There are many others things we need to be doing as you say. But that doesn't mean we can just forget about rider behaviour totally and solely focus on the authorities. At least when EUC's are not even legal to start with (for us in the UK).

[mike_bike_kite]

3 hours ago, Sumako said:

To start off with it’s a unicycle, and electric one. Not a scooter.

In the eyes of legislators they are exactly the same. Here in the UK, EUCs are grouped in with eskates and escooters, and all have now been made illegal. It was always weird to me that they'd make such a great form of transport illegal but I recently rode into the city on my motorcycle and it was obvious why. I was honestly appalled by the standard of riding: riders weaving from side to side blocking vehicles from passing them, riding the wrong way down one way streets, riding fast on the pavements, cutting across traffic with no warning, ignoring red lights and pedestrian crossings. I only saw escooters while I was out but, to the public, all these vehicles are exactly the same.

[Unventor]

19 minutes ago, Planemo said:

In your mind, yes. To some extent, in mine too. But for many lawmakers (and more importantly, Joe Public) they are not. And no amount of 'wishing they were' by either me or you is gonna change that, at least not at the moment, and certainly not in the UK.

No one is saying the NYC riders don't have skill. Far from it. But barrelling through a pedestrian crossing like a cannonball with a mother and children already on it whilst shouting at them to get out of the way is not a skill. If the peds had run onto the crossing without notice and the rider had stopped on a dime with complete control, I would have been impressed. In fact, doing so would have helped our cause and shown what can be done on 1 wheel. What was shown required no skill whatsoever, let alone any consideration.

I agree in a way, bitching about Mick is not going to change anything overnight. There are many others things we need to be doing as you say. But that doesn't mean we can just forget about rider behaviour totally and solely focus on the authorities. At least when EUC's are not even legal to start with (for us in the UK).

Very well put . 

[Planemo]

37 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Here in the UK, EUCs are grouped in with eskates and escooters, and all have now been made illegal.

To be fair they were never legal to start with, so nothing has been 'made' illegal, nor 'banned' as both imply they were OK to start with. Just being pedantic I know, but it's relevant because if something was legal to start with there is an outside chance that any ban could may be overturned with a simple tweek to legislation. With nothing in law to start with, we need to tread very gingerly IMO, and I agree with the rest of your post that we are not off to a good start given the amount of idiots I have seen on scooters (and EUC's tbf), rental or otherwise. It makes me despair, it really does.

[Paulo Mesquita]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

In my country, e-kickscooters and EUCs are under the same traffic laws. Just sayin’.

Same here, they're classified as electric self balancing vehicles. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

To be fair they were never legal to start with, so nothing has been 'made' illegal, nor 'banned' as both imply they were OK to start with. Just being pedantic I know, but it's relevant because if something was legal to start with there is an outside chance that any ban could may be overturned with a simple tweek to legislation. With nothing in law to start with, we need to tread very gingerly IMO, and I agree with the rest of your post that we are not off to a good start given the amount of idiots I have seen on scooters (and EUC's tbf), rental or otherwise. It makes me despair, it really does.

I remember how it was in the 70's with the motorcycke idiots in Portugal. I saw quite a few deaths due to their  stupidity at the time. Now it's all more civilized. 

I guess it Wil happen to with EVs. No doubt they will be the future of urban commuting. However it will most 😊 poetically 😊not be in our lifetime. 

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

No doubt they will be the future of urban commuting. However it will most 😊 poetically 😊not be in our lifetime. 

Oh absolutely, PEV's will have to be legal everywhere at some point. I just hope that it comes before my legs are too old to get on one 

[Tasku]

2 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

I remember how it was in the 70's with the motorcycke idiots in Portugal. I saw quite a few deaths due to their  stupidity at the time. Now it's all more civilized. 

History tends to repeat itself.

This changed cause the community was hammered with police paying attention to em (motorcycles). Surely the acts of few was enough to bring everyone under one way or another to prying eyes. Also you need licence, that you can lose. Motorcycles are not for everyone to use, same reasoning should follow to euc, e-scooters, and so on.. Currently everyone can use em scooters and no age, no restrictions, no lessons, no nothing. Surprising how little there are accidents involved. This "new thing" is all clickbait "news" write about. After all they are the rumour spreaders. Sadly people only remember the headlines that are later corrected in the actual writing. Press can at whim change its mind just to sell more paper for quick revenue.

Since this topic was so interested in New York I wanna side track to graffitis. Graffitis were legal back in the days, does anyone even remember? But it only took the press to write rumours and few to ban em and all of a sudden they were considered the "No-no". And full circle today we got something like Banksy in art gallery. Culture cities where grafitis have areas in the center of city.. -End of sidetrack, but just to say I hope people here would think long term. I would so much like to go on another sidetrack and explain how petitions or organisations looking after your/our interest can/could make change. How about changing away from 'NRA' funding to 'EUCfirst' ? Not that it exists, but I do hope someday reliable people step-up and know that we would be funding them to fight for the cause. This would be so much better than smack talking the very members who ride these devices. 

And back to legal talk: I just hope they use the existing licences and restrictions, if "they" ever start to limiting the use these "new wave" devices.

"Bicycle and/or PEV licence", sounds so funny I try to imagine what the training and theory would be like. Sadly I think cyclist has lobbying force against any kind of licence requirements and public opinion swaying power but.. They do not seem to care about what weirdness is going on to the electric powered bikes. Weird. Well as you lose ground all the time all of a sudden the ground is gone, maybe that is what we see, grip getting tight, "when the sea has turned but a lake, it might be too late."

Did you know during Victorian era, people used to poison their milk? Yes, with the same stuff we clean our toilets with. Supposedly took the bad flavour away.. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Tasku

[winterwheel]

My view, which I said a few pages back but might bear repeating, is that it is up to us as EUC riders to promote the idea to non-riders, media, legislators etc that EUCs are not eScooters, and why that matters. Right now yes, the law is lazy in many places and lumps all electric devices into one category. Over time, if we put in the effort and don't just roll over and accept this point of view, we can have future law/enforcement recognize the distinction between the two. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

28 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

My view, which I said a few pages back but might bear repeating, is that it is up to us as EUC riders to promote the idea to non-riders, media, legislators etc that EUCs are not eScooters, and why that matters. Right now yes, the law is lazy in many places and lumps all electric devices into one category. Over time, if we put in the effort and don't just roll over and accept this point of view, we can have future law/enforcement recognize the distinction between the two. 

You mentioned the major problem :the law is lazy. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

2 hours ago, Tasku said:

History tends to repeat itself.

This changed cause the community was hammered with police paying attention to em (motorcycles). Surely the acts of few was enough to bring everyone under one way or another to prying eyes. Also you need licence, that you can lose. Motorcycles are not for everyone to use, same reasoning should follow to euc, e-scooters, and so on.. Currently everyone can use em scooters and no age, no restrictions, no lessons, no nothing. Surprising how little there are accidents involved. This "new thing" is all clickbait "news" write about. After all they are the rumour spreaders. Sadly people only remember the headlines that are later corrected in the actual writing. Press can at whim change its mind just to sell more paper for quick revenue.

Since this topic was so interested in New York I wanna side track to graffitis. Graffitis were legal back in the days, does anyone even remember? But it only took the press to write rumours and few to ban em and all of a sudden they were considered the "No-no". And full circle today we got something like Banksy in art gallery. Culture cities where grafitis have areas in the center of city.. -End of sidetrack, but just to say I hope people here would think long term. I would so much like to go on another sidetrack and explain how petitions or organisations looking after your/our interest can/could make change. How about changing away from 'NRA' funding to 'EUCfirst' ? Not that it exists, but I do hope someday reliable people step-up and know that we would be funding them to fight for the cause. This would be so much better than smack talking the very members who ride these devices. 

And back to legal talk: I just hope they use the existing licences and restrictions, if "they" ever start to limiting the use these "new wave" devices.

"Bicycle and/or PEV licence", sounds so funny I try to imagine what the training and theory would be like. Sadly I think cyclist has lobbying force against any kind of licence requirements and public opinion swaying power but.. They do not seem to care about what weirdness is going on to the electric powered bikes. Weird. Well as you lose ground all the time all of a sudden the ground is gone, maybe that is what we see, grip getting tight, "when the sea has turned but a lake, it might be too late."

Did you know during Victorian era, people used to poison their milk? Yes, with the same stuff we clean our toilets with. Supposedly took the bad flavour away.. 

You put you finger on the spot : licencing is the key. If we look at motorcycles and electric bycicles, which in theory, and also in truth is the most dangerous, not to speak pollution wise ? IMHO... motorcycles!!! So why are they more accepted than e-bycicles?... because they they are licensed and insured, simple. That's why I believe that licencing is the key to EUCs.

Just my $0.02

[Camenbert]

3 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

So why are they more accepted than e-bycicles?... because they they are licensed and insured, simple. That's why I believe that licencing is the key to EUCs.

Interesting, so what is your choice between

- a french law, no obligation whatsoever except 25 kph (some get why I ask different profile protected by PIN on V12) and helmet outside town.
- a half motorcycle type-approval, with obligation of helmet all the time, insurance, license plate, possibly taxes, but no speed limitation built-in ?

Because Santa-Claus do not exist, there is no other choice I am affraid (except being illegal of course)
I am very curious to see the survey on all participants on this discussion

[Flying W]

@Camenbert I'm all for registration an insurance just like my motorcycle.....but sadly I don't see any way this is possible while also being able to still use bicycle paths and trails. 

If Santa did exist he would make a new class, where we can have insurance, slap a qr sticker on the wheel for registration but still be able to ride them anywhere with speed limits on sidewalks and bike paths and unrestricted in the street. 

Right now anyone can buy a fast wheel and hit beep speed withing a few weeks...but that wheel is not a part his or her body yet and when shit goes south it ends in a crash. At least with insurance the rider is protected from high bills if it destroys property or worse hits a person. 

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Camenbert said:

Interesting, so what is your choice between

- a french law, no obligation whatsoever except 25 kph (some get why I ask different profile protected by PIN on V12) and helmet outside town.
- a half motorcycle type-approval, with obligation of helmet all the time, insurance, license plate, possibly taxes, but no speed limitation built-in ?

Because Santa-Claus do not exist, there is no other choice I am affraid (except being illegal of course)
I am very curious to see the survey on all participants on this discussion

The thing is that in Portugal its not about 25km speed limitation. The law says that the wheel can't have power to exceed 25km/h and can't have a maximum continuous power over 0,25kW (250watts). So that leaves the only PEVs allowed to circulate in Portugal... The ones for little kids... 

So you see, in Portugal the law created is utterly ridiculous and doesn't fit in either of you two alternatives. 

In our society, with our blind laws and our idiotic politicians, a 3rd alternative is actually preferable. And it's exactly what you pointed:.... "approval, with obligation of helmet all the time, insurance, license plate, possibly taxes..." 

I do, however, agree with a speed limitation of 25 or 30km/h. Not everyone's responsable. 

This 3rd option is better than losing our wheels because they aren't limited to the ridiculous number of 0,25kW (250watts)... 😁

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Flying W said:

@Camenbert I'm all for registration an insurance just like my motorcycle.....but sadly I don't see any way this is possible while also being able to still use bicycle paths and trails. 

If Santa did exist he would make a new class, where we can have insurance, slap a qr sticker on the wheel for registration but still be able to ride them anywhere with speed limits on sidewalks and bike paths and unrestricted in the street. 

Right now anyone can buy a fast wheel and hit beep speed withing a few weeks...but that wheel is not a part his or her body yet and when shit goes south it ends in a crash. At least with insurance the rider is protected from high bills if it destroys property or worse hits a person. 

 

100% my opinion 😊

[mike_bike_kite]

I'm also all for insurance on these wheels and probably just third party insurance otherwise it would be too expensive. To get that insurance I think you need to have a valid driving or motorbike license. You should also be required to wear a helmet. Wheels should also be required to have front and rear lights plus a brake light.  

[Paulo Mesquita]

25 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm also all for insurance on these wheels and probably just third party insurance otherwise it would be too expensive. To get that insurance I think you need to have a valid driving or motorbike license. You should also be required to wear a helmet. Wheels should also be required to have front and rear lights plus a brake light.  

That would be exactly my suggestion.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

TO be honest, if these things require licensing, insurance, registration etc, then I'm out and I'll go back to my car & motorcycle.  THey should be treated like bicycles and be done with it.   My state is now just requiring automatic CAR INSURANCE checks.  Up until Jul1 of this year it was an honor system.  Auto insurance is required here, however around 20-30% of motorists lie & don't carry insurance on their automobile.  This is a much bigger problem than requiring plates & insurance on an 20-80 pound "vehicle"

Also:  Helmet requirements?  Not even required for a motorcycle here...

Edited June 28, 2021 by /Dev/Null

[mike_bike_kite]

2 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

TO be honest, if these things require licensing, insurance, registration etc, then I'm out and I'll go back to my car & motorcycle.  THey should be treated like bicycles and be done with it.  

They weigh nearly 30Kg and they can go over 40mph - they're definitely not bicycles! What's worse is many riders (at least the e-scooter riders I saw this week) have no apparent understanding of the rules of the road or a care for the the safety of others. They also have no insurance so what happens when a pedestrian gets hit? or a car gets damaged? Do they wait for the police and then explain you can't afford to pay the medical bills or repairs?