Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Sumako]

On 7/1/2021 at 11:59 PM, Paul A said:

Some scooters may have very small wheels, non pneumatic wheels or tyres, very low clearance, require both hands on handle bars for steering, the inline feet stance of front/back, very short wheel base, poor design or construction, etc. 

These may be the more likely and dominating causes of crashes and injuries.

Contributing factors of lesser experience, lower level of skill, unfamiliarity of the hire/rental casual user.

 

Perhaps the introduction of registration of EUC, scooter, PEV etc owners may be a necessity to deter dangerous, illegal, irresponsible behaviour.

Mandatory clearly visible illuminated licence plates on every PEV for identification and traceability.

Rental PEV hirers will have their details, times of hire, all recorded on the mobile phone apps.

All PEV vehicles, the owners, the riders, the operators will be identifiable, traceable and accountable.

The hit and run perpetrator of the death of Lisa Banes would not have escaped detection so easily with so many witnesses, traffic and security surveillance video cameras along streets before and after, store fronts, railway stations etc.

 

WOW! DMV registration, liability insurance, more taxes, paid annually, on the electric equivalent of a pair of roller blades? DUMBEST most STUPID and DISCONNECTED idea I have ever heard.  

 
It looks like all you riders who want laws to force the rest of riders to pay an annual fee/tax to the man. I bet y’all were never pissed off at @evX_Mickover his video. In fact the lot of you are glad he made that video so y’all can make your pitch to community, to sell the rest of us on the idea of spending more money on what we own. 

DON’T go to the DMV

DON’T get your wheel plated

DON’T try to be “street legal” becasue your ride is already STREET LEGAL!!!!!

 

Nearly every state has legislation guiding electric micro mobility. It’s called “25mph on the road and no limit speed in bike-lanes”! 

You’re riding an Electric Unicycle, people. It’s NOT a motorcycle. It was never meant to be a motorcycle or motor bike. It’s not mini ebike, it’s a not half, standup, pogo, mini, push it, skate it, “E” Motorcycle.

 

You want a motorcycle where you get go walk into the DMV and get your plates, buy registration tags, pay taxes, and Liability insurance; ANNUALLY? Then get off of the EUC and get a REAL motorcycle. And if you got a motorcycle be grateful that your EUC gives you a fun ride that you don’t have to pay annually on. 

[GoGeorgeGo]

22 minutes ago, Sumako said:

 

WOW! DMV registration, liability insurance, more taxes, paid annually, on the electric equivalent of a pair of roller blades? DUMBEST most STUPID and DISCONNECTED idea I have ever heard.  

 
It looks like all you riders who want laws to force the rest of riders to pay an annual fee/tax to the man. I bet y’all were never pissed off at @evX_Mickover his video. In fact the lot of you are glad he made that video so y’all can make your pitch to community, to sell the rest of us on the idea of spending more money on what we own. 

DON’T go to the DMV

DON’T get your wheel plated

DON’T try to be “street legal” becasue your ride is already STREET LEGAL!!!!!

 

Nearly every state has legislation guiding electric micro mobility. It’s called “25mph on the road and no limit speed in bike-lanes”! 

You’re riding an Electric Unicycle, people. It’s NOT a motorcycle. It was never meant to be a motorcycle or motor bike. It’s not mini ebike, it’s a not half, standup, pogo, mini, push it, skate it, “E” Motorcycle.

 

You want a motorcycle where you get go walk into the DMV and get your plates, buy registration tags, pay taxes, and Liability insurance; ANNUALLY? Then get off of the EUC and get a REAL motorcycle. And if you got a motorcycle be grateful that your EUC gives you a fun ride that you don’t have to pay annually on. 

I don't think its dumb at all. People already ride 40+ mph on unicycles through the streets of America. Eventually our options will be a ban or regualtion. I think there is a large chunk of riders who would gladly comply with regulation than be stuck with 25 mph wheels. 

The argument of "go get a motorcycle" is nonsense. Its a completely different experience. You could make the same argument against motorcycles, why not just go get a car?

There are a bunch of EUC that are not meant to be motorcycles you are correct. But units like the Sherman and Monster Pro are clearly intended to be driven more like a motorcycle. 

To me there is a clear distinction to be made between classifications of wheels. Theres last mile commuters and ultra portable transportation (which is how the machines lifecycle started). And then there are road wheels, meant to be alternative modes of transport driven in the street. It only makes sense that vehicles driven in the roadway would require registration and potentially an operators liscense and insurance based on what state your in. 

There can both exist small unregistered machines, and larger registered machines. I dont need to register a moped but i do need to register a motorcycle. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[gon2fast]

Worst and best topic ever. It hurts me to look at this from time to time, but it is truly riveting to see the different perspectives.  

 

[CarlW]

4 hours ago, Sumako said:

I bet y’all were never pissed off at @evX_Mickover his video.

I was never pissed at the video, but the defense of the behavior in the video is another story entirely.  The attitude exhibited by some in response to valid criticism has always been the problem.  A majority in this community called out the behavior as unnecessary and unacceptable.  evX and his supporters could have chosen to react differently to the criticism.  Decisions have consequences.      

4 hours ago, Sumako said:

WOW! DMV registration, liability insurance, more taxes, paid annually, on the electric equivalent of a pair of roller blades? DUMBEST most STUPID and DISCONNECTED idea I have ever heard.

You should be more than capable of presenting your point of view without derogatory statements towards others.           

[Mark13i]

18 hours ago, Camenbert said:

Who will disagree with this ? My irony was after your stereotype:

This is not not politically correct. This is a generalization I don't accept, such generalization thinking seed to racism and other shit like this.

And it's just not true. I have been living in Barcelona and common rules are much more respected there than in Paris. Idem in Pays Basque.
May you think there are also "Latin Europeans" on this forum that would refuse to be seen as you describe?!

Culture must not be noticed (racism), gender must not be noticed (chauvinism), religion must not be noticed... - eh when finally one must not notice intelligence, education and lack of sense of humor.  We will all be beautifully the same

[mike_bike_kite]

6 hours ago, Sumako said:

WOW! DMV registration, liability insurance, more taxes, paid annually, on the electric equivalent of a pair of roller blades? DUMBEST most STUPID and DISCONNECTED idea I have ever heard.  

Roller blades don't weigh over 30 Kg (66 lbs) and travel at 40mph. 

Here in the UK we have a simple choice of either "hoping" to be able to pay insurance or getting stopped by the police. Getting stopped by the police means having your wheel confiscated, a substantial fine and points on your driving license. If you get stopped twice then you could loose your driving license all together.

Even in the USA it's unclear what would happen if you injured a pedestrian. Would you pay for their medical bills? and how would you pay? or would you just run away? Also, how would you stand legally? would the police see it as just a bicycle or a motorised vehicle without insurance?

[Sumako]

43 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Roller blades don't weigh over 30 Kg (66 lbs) and travel at 40mph. 

Here in the UK we have a simple choice of either "hoping" to be able to pay insurance or getting stopped by the police. Getting stopped by the police means having your wheel confiscated, a substantial fine and points on your driving license. If you get stopped twice then you could loose your driving license all together.

Even in the USA it's unclear what would happen if you injured a pedestrian. Would you pay for their medical bills? and how would you pay? or would you just run away? Also, how would you stand legally? would the police see it as just a bicycle or a motorised vehicle without insurance?

That’s right, rollerblades don’t weight 40+lbs, but a rollerblader can travel as fast as 35mph. In any state in the USA regulations are in place. Electric Micro Mobility vehicles are only allowed to go as fast as 25mph. That 40mph you find in a Sherman is really meant to give you ceiling room and help you maintain more range. You were never meant to go 40mph. But you can, at the cost of your range. 

What happens if you hit a pedestrian? I don’t know. But cyclists and rollerbladers have hit pedestrians multiple times. The world goes on. The key concept we should ALL be having a hard time with is anything that becomes mandatory. 

If being properly insured is that important to you (and you’re in the states) check out https://www.facebook.com/pacificsideinsurance . My buddy, Jersey, has insurance for OneWheel, ESkates, EBikes, EScooters, and EUCs. See if what he has is the right option for you. 

The UK? Oh so maybe my buddy can’t help you (but could help an American reading this). The UK has an entirely different problem. It’s called corporate fascism. That’s when companies like Lime and Bird get a special deal with the local government, asking said government to make laws that state the only PEVs citizens may have access to are those Lime rents out. That is pretty horrific. Imagine what other companies get those kinds of special rights. Those of you in the UK need to get to moving on a new revolution. 

[Sumako]

2 hours ago, CarlW said:

 You should be more than capable of presenting your point of view without derogatory statements towards others.           

Asking for laws that force other EUC riders to go to the  DMV and pay for registration on their EUC, plus buy mandatory liability insurance, and pay more taxes on their EUC, every year is DUMB, STUPID. To suggest such legislation is DISCONNECTED, as in TONE DEAF to the complete dynamics of the entire community’s diverse economic backgrounds as well as being lost on the fact that EUC’s are in no way on the same level as a car or MotorCycle. If you think your EUC is a motorcycle of some sort, you’re living in fantasy land.  

[mike_bike_kite]

You didn't answer the bit about "... what would happen if you injured a pedestrian. Would you pay for their medical bills? and how would you pay? or would you just run away? Also, how would you stand legally? would the police see it as just a bicycle or a motorised vehicle without insurance?". I think that part is quite important. I'm guessing you're in the "run away" part.

[Sumako]

@CarlW EUC status *researching purchase* Wait!!! Carl, did you forget to update your EUC status? Because I know you wouldn’t be responding to any of this discussion unless you were riding. What wheel do you ride?

[Sumako]

 

8 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

You didn't answer the bit about "... what would happen if you injured a pedestrian. Would you pay for their medical bills? and how would you pay? or would you just run away? Also, how would you stand legally? would the police see it as just a bicycle or a motorised vehicle without insurance?". I think that part is quite important. I'm guessing you're in the "run away" part.

Here. Read the part of my OP you missed:

20 minutes ago, Sumako said:

What happens if you hit a pedestrian? I don’t know. But cyclists and rollerbladers have hit pedestrians multiple times. The world goes on. The key concept we should ALL be having a hard time with is anything that becomes mandatory. 

 

And NO, no one just runs away. Cyclists and RollerBladers have not. Again, happens all of the time. Police and ambulances show up. Been happening for years and it gets figured out with out special insurance and regulations for Rollerblades, bicycles and even REAL Unicycles. 

[mike_bike_kite]

6 minutes ago, Sumako said:

And NO, no one just runs away. Cyclists and RollerBladers have not. Again, happens all of the time. Police and ambulances show up. Been happening for years and it gets figured out with out special insurance and regulations for Rollerblades, bicycles and even REAL Unicycles. 

So roller blades, bicycles and unicycles are covered by a "special insurance" but you don't mention what happens with an EUC. The laws are obviously different in different countries and probably different in different states in the US but here in the UK we need insurance to be legal on the roads. I suspect many of us here in the UK would also be happy to pay it if it was available. We simply want insurance to be legal. The same thing may well be true across many parts of Europe as well. Paying for insurance might be DUMB to you but if it saves me from loosing my wheel and my driving license then I think it's fairly SENSIBLE.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

@CarlW EUC status *researching purchase* Wait!!! Carl, did you forget to update your EUC status? Because I know you wouldn’t be responding to any of this discussion unless you were riding. What wheel do you ride?

Rinding an EUC is no necessary condition to be allowed to post here. 

Beeing interested in EUC'd could help posting here, but is not really necessary, too.

If you feel this has to be changed please propose your changes to the moderators team.

So as long as the rules are not changed @CarlW is heartly welcome to post his opinion here! As no member is entitled to stop any other member from posting here.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Chriull

[Sumako]

40 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

So roller blades, bicycles and unicycles are covered by a "special insurance" but you don't mention what happens with an EUC. The laws are obviously different in different countries and probably different in different states in the US but here in the UK we need insurance to be legal on the roads. I suspect many of us here in the UK would also be happy to pay it if it was available. We simply want insurance to be legal. The same thing may well be true across many parts of Europe as well. Paying for insurance might be DUMB to you but if it saves me from loosing my wheel and my driving license then I think it's fairly SENSIBLE.

OMG! The whole point is, we have been dealing with this issue of people getting hit by cyclists and skaters for ever and a day and there has NEVER been insurance for any of these cases. Y’all in the UK have free healthcare/socialized medicine. I can’t imagine why any of you need insurance for your PEVs in the first place if medicine and healthcare is covered in the first place. But I digress. 

What has the UK done when a cyclist or skater accidentally hit a pedestrian? 

[Sumako]

7 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Rinding an EUC is no necessary condition to be allowed to post here. 

Beeing interested in EUC'd could help posting here, but is not really necessary, too.

If you feel this has to be changed please propose your changes to the moderators team.

So as long as the rules are not changed @CarlW is heartly welcome to post his opinion here! As no member is entitled to stop any other member from posting here.

Yea, you missed the context of my post. In order to understand what is going on in this discussion, it really helps if you have actually ride an EUC. It’s like I don’t fly planes but I’m posting in a discussion about complicated issues regarding flying a solo sports plane. Ya can’t add much complicated discussions unless you have experience. See what I am saying? 

But we have not even established if @CarlWjust forgot to update his status or not. That’s all.

[yoos]

12 minutes ago, Sumako said:

But we have not even established if @CarlWjust forgot to update his status or not. That’s all.

Sorry, but this looked like you simply attacked @CarlW instead of attacking his arguments. If you really cared, you could check CarlWs profile and see his latest message -- his 16X is underway.

Back on topic: an optional insurance would surely please all parties. Being so niche, I am afraid many countries have no EUC insurance options at all. Moreover, even if you have an EUC (or umbrella) coverage, you could be still in danger zone since your EUC driving (as a whole or your particular actions before an accident) could be considered illegal so that you would be exempt from coverage in the end. I found there is a particular insurance in Russia that includes eucs segways etc, but I did not check out all details. 

Generally speaking, I would still seek out insurance even before it may become mandatory. It's a protection layer just like a helmet: it might be irritating most of the time but it removes some of the most catastrophic (even if unlikely) scenarios from your risk sheet. Insurances are a great concept overall .

It would also do a service to the community image: an insured rider would be motivated to stay at the scene after an accident and generally behave like an accountable and legitimate member of society.

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

That’s right, rollerblades don’t weight 40+lbs, but a rollerblader can travel as fast as 35mph. In any state in the USA regulations are in place. Electric Micro Mobility vehicles are only allowed to go as fast as 25mph. That 40mph you find in a Sherman is  really meant to give you ceiling room and help you maintain more range. You were never meant to go 40mph. But you can, at the cost of your range. 

So what you are saying you "need" the wheel to ride at 40mph for headroom? So ytou would be fine with a technical limit at 25mph Even if you wheel could do a lot more. Because it is how your areas law is right?

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

Asking for laws that force other EUC riders to go to the  DMV and pay for registration on their EUC, plus buy mandatory liability insurance, and pay more taxes on their EUC, every year is DUMB, STUPID. To suggest such legislation is DISCONNECTED, as in TONE DEAF to the complete dynamics of the entire community’s diverse economic backgrounds as well as being lost on the fact that EUC’s are in no way on the same level as a car or MotorCycle. If you think your EUC is a motorcycle of some sort, you’re living in fantasy land.  

So what your are saying that people much prove they understand the consequences of what riding a motor powered vehicle is disconnected and tone deaf?

And in case you accidentally injuries some one or their property then it matters less if they can cover the cost to you? Know what little I know the US this can get very expensive.

Now the point I am trying to make here is there is a huge difference to be on ones our yard/ranch or in public traffic or downtown crowded traffic. But as soon you are out in traffic it is normal that you have rules and laws to obey by. They serve multi purposes. To protect anyone in the traffic area from others put you at risk. Also to make sure that traffic flows in a predictable way for every one, means you and your surrounding can make same predictions. Now traffic are divided into different categories, so they can travel together and those that don't belong together get separated.

So to be clear this is from this point on to everyone here.

Now when some make shown extremely poor judgement of how to behave in a public space like traffic it put others at risk. But when a micro community starts defending this that is when you very soon will see legislation will kick in. Even in the land of the free (or US)  Laws are made to protect people from others doing bad things to them. 

I just wish that we as EUC riders as a community here showcase thee great part of what EUC offers us and part of that is using them in traffic as a serious mean to transport us. I don't think disregard to your surroundings and people that do not share you interests should fear you if your are part of traffic. Some ride these as a sport, fine so be it, but race/sport is not imo in traffic. We don't see indy 500 or formula 1 races in public traffic for good reason. Now some races are hold in traffic area but they are coordinated with authorities and even on enclosed areas temporary.If you decide to ride as a sport do it in a way that don't hurt others and the public view on our transport. I actually think races or skill test link this is very fun entertainment. 

There is a huge difference to this video and people sharing "cool reckless riding" we see showcase on FB and some people YT channel to get more view and share and links. As a viewer I think you should consider what you chose to view and share. 

And this is what I also think most of us can agree upon. 

[Gasmantle]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

 I can’t imagine why any of you need insurance for your PEVs in the first place if medicine and healthcare is covered in the first place. 

Has it never occurred to you that vehicle insurance covers more than just injury costs? 

We pay insurance to cover property / vehicle damage, loss of earnings due to injury, compensation claims, court costs etc.

 

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

SeeYea, you missed the context of my post. In order to understand what is going on in this discussion, it really helps if you have actually ride an EUC. It’s like I don’t fly planes but I’m posting in a discussion about complicated issues regarding flying a solo sports plane. Ya can’t add much complicated discussions unless you have experience. See what I am saying? 

This topic is about human behaviour and possible consequences and no rocket sience.

There is no reason why anyone not riding an EUC should not respond.

Even in high tech/experience/guru/whatever stuff newbes are welcome to chime in (on topic) - as written we have no entry condition here. 

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

But we have not even established if @CarlWjust forgot to update his status or not. That’s all.

Great exampe - @CarlW's post is, especially compared to this question on topic and relevant!

[PLEASE_DELETE]

1 hour ago, yoos said:

Sorry, but this looked like you simply attacked @CarlW instead of attacking his arguments. If you really cared, you could check CarlWs profile and see his latest message -- his 16X is underway.

Back on topic: an optional insurance would surely please all parties. Being so niche, I am afraid many countries have no EUC insurance options at all. Moreover, even if you have an EUC (or umbrella) coverage, you could be still in danger zone since your EUC driving (as a whole or your particular actions before an accident) could be considered illegal so that you would be exempt from coverage in the end. I found there is a particular insurance in Russia that includes eucs segways etc, but I did not check out all details. 

Generally speaking, I would still seek out insurance even before it may become mandatory. It's a protection layer just like a helmet: it might be irritating most of the time but it removes some of the most catastrophic (even if unlikely) scenarios from your risk sheet. Insurances are a great concept overall .

It would also do a service to the community image: an insured rider would be motivated to stay at the scene after an accident and generally behave like an accountable and legitimate member of society.

I see where you are coming from on the umbrella, but my insurer specifically mentions slander/libel as covered & those are illegal...It's supposed to be a catchall.  

[yoos]

5 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

slander/libel as covered

Perhaps, only unintentional slander and libel are?  Anyway, really nice umbrella you have!

[mike_bike_kite]

15 minutes ago, Sumako said:

OMG! The whole point is, we have been dealing with this issue of people getting hit by cyclists and skaters for ever and a day and there has NEVER been insurance for any of these cases. Y’all in the UK have free healthcare/socialized medicine. I can’t imagine why any of you need insurance for your PEVs in the first place if medicine and healthcare is covered in the first place. But I digress. 

What has the UK done when a cyclist or skater accidentally hit a pedestrian? 

Here in the UK most cyclists can be covered by their home insurance (through third party liability). If they are a part of a cycling organisation such as Cycling UK or British Cycling then they're also covered that way. Separate insurance is also available elsewhere just for cyclists. But, at the end of the day, cyclists don't actually need insurance to be on the roads in the UK but motorised vehicles do. An EUC is a motorised vehicle. That means we're risking fines, confiscation of the wheel and loosing half our drivers license each time we're caught. The last part is a huge risk for me personally as I still have a clean license after 40 years.

We don't really get skate boarders or roller skaters on the roads in the UK. There was a recent case of a bicyclist killing a pedestrian after going through red a light and he was jailed for 18 months. I thought they were lucky to get off so lightly.

[conecones]

I'm all for a (free/government subsidized) licensing/exam requirement for any "vehicle" that is used on the public roads, motorized or not. It's too late to enforce this on pedal bikes, but it should be done for all PEV. Reason is not so much for a pathway to insurance, but rather it gives authorities the much needed leverage to punish the reckless riders, while accepting the law-abiding ones. 

These reckless riders can no longer plead ignorance (since they passed the exam), so they can be hit with careless driving/reckless driving, the latter which is a criminal offense and both can carry license suspensions. If someone was hurt as a result, then it will add the "causing bodily harm" clause which can mean jail time on top.

Before a separate PEV licensing/exam is setup though, I think the minimum requirement is for anyone to ride on the road, they must have a drivers license. That way reckless behaviour can still be regulated via demerit points which is much more impactful than say impounding the wheel/confiscating it - which will just cause more "outlaw behaviour" as riders will have no choice but to try to dodge cops every ride. Personally, if I got stopped on my commute because I was going 60 in a 30 zone, I have no issue bringing out my driver's license and admitting I screwed up - how is this any different than if I was driving a car? Speed limits are designed for everyone's safety, shouldn't matter what vehicle it is.

If we want governments to take PEV micro-mobility seriously, we absolutely need licensing because of how how fast these vehicles are and the risk it poses.

[Rehab1]

If I just capture one moment in time of the entire video please calmly explain “who has the right of way”? 

 

[Unventor]

22 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

If I just capture one moment in time of the entire video please calmly explain “who has the right of way”? 

 

Let's roll it back a 10sec or so. I don't think they anticipated an EUC to be that fast up on then. After all 2 set of people made decisions to cross and that could be done safely.

This is a very good example to why cities do not have highway speed limits in pedestrian areas.

One frame show one situation but it might not reflect eye contact that could have allowed all to pass each other in a different situation.

It become reckless riding the moment you are riding in a way that none around you expect you too. That mean both in terms in speeds, lane shifting or in areas you are not supposed to be. 

The pedestrian s are in a designated area for them to cross. It does not mean they can do whatever they please, but they do hold the advantage to right of way. At least to traffic laws I am familiar with. 

Once someone decide they are above the law it becomes a very dangerous situation very fast. Riding or driving fast do not make it better in any way.