Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Gasmantle]

17 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

*car and motorcycles are rules by the same book, wrote by the same legislator, yet no one confuse them, no one to blame about the other, and none feel from the same community (I have yet to see a forum egal about both

You've kinda destroyed your own argument here.

Cars and motorcycles are (largely) governed by the same rules and the legislation is likely to have been created by the same authority body. For the very same reason Escooters and EUCs are also likely to have rules created by the same authority.

We all know that Escooters and EUCs are different vehicles in the way that cars and motorcycles are but they share essentially the same function and operating environment, the legislation applied to one will greatly influence any legislation applied to the other whether you like it or not.

[Camenbert]

16 minutes ago, Treatz said:

Wrong, the poster even clarified. This thread about the specific behavior in that specific video. You know, where a kid almost got run over...and the other things that the rest of us have clearly stated was our concern (despite your attempts to make it about everything other than that).

Some want to put a new coin in the jukebox, so here we go:

If I dislike the specific behavior in that specific video as well, I will never condemned this video.
The plague that concerns us are the pedestrians who cross without looking (because until now anything going fast had noisy engine).

If that single video can have an impact on thousand pedestrians, making them more careful about silent danger, why would you like that we become mad about it?

 

[winterwheel]

Let me try to convey my views in a way that doesn't require an inflammatory follow up.

I am not in favor of scaring pedestrians.

I do not feel that video represents an incredibly bad look for this community.

I am aware that there are opposing perspectives and that is okay with me.

Edited June 25, 2021 by winterwheel

[Camenbert]

11 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

We all know that Escooters and EUCs are different vehicles in the way that cars and motorcycles are but they share essentially the same function and operating environment, the legislation applied to one will greatly influence any legislation applied to the other whether you like it or not.

Yes, and what? Like in France? You expect to get a greater speed limitation than escooter?
That argument have been put upside down : if the regulation will come with all logic for both, no one confuse them, so we should stop relaying escooter accident to fear about EUC ban, this is really bad for us because it look like we are begging to be seen as one "all or nothing".
 

[Gasmantle]

Just now, Camenbert said:

Yes, and what? Like in France? You expect to get a greater speed limitation than escooter?
That argument have been put upside down : if the regulation will come with all logic for both, no one confuse them, so we should stop relaying escooter accident to fear about EUC ban, this is really bad for us because it look like we are begging to be seen as one "all or nothing".
 

The point you haven't grasped is that it is very likely that the people legislating for Escooters will very likely be the same people legislating for EUC's.

I'm not saying the vehicles are the same or even that the same rules should apply to both but the important fact is there is a 'commonality' between the 2.

Escooter accidents / fatalities are relevant to EUCs because the general public and those drafting the legislation applicable to EUC's will draw comparisons even despite the differences.

 

[Tasku]

 

14 minutes ago, Treatz said:

This thread about

Let me fill in:

Misinformation, opinions, sidetracks, non-sense, trolling fo sure, more news headlines re-writen with imagination, nightmares?, just some general venting, attacking other members, accusing other members and what not. This is living up to its name. But unlike tire change thread, this thread does not serve generally good purpose.  Where "How to sharpen your pitchfork guide", would be something informative. This topic has as much factual value to it as "Sports-bar versus Cyber-cafe, what is better?" conversation.

I do not know all these chatters but I would rather read someone's opinions as he wrote em, not what some picks up from out of topic. 

[Camenbert]

14 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

Escooter accidents / fatalities are relevant to EUCs because the general public and those drafting the legislation applicable to EUC's will draw comparisons even despite the differences.

I think we are saying the same, so I will not continue for ever.
If you draw a comparison between escooter and EUCs (even despite the differences) you will see the first kill, not the second.
If you draw a comparison, escooter might be ban, not EUCs. My hope is that they ban the rental scheme.
If you keep posting about escooter fatalities on EUCs forum, you only expect a ban for both.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Camenbert

[Gasmantle]

1 minute ago, Camenbert said:

 My hope is that they ban the rental scheme.

I largely agree with that, I can't speak for elsewhere but in the UK my understanding is the rental scheme was introduced as a temporary way of allowing a greater number of people to try the Escooters during the trial period. My guess is the trial is largely to gauge public opinion and to assess the risk.

Clearly a rental only scheme isn't ideal as a long term solution but I do think it does have merits during the trial. Rental machines will be properly maintained, traceable, and have some blanket insurance. It does allow for greater rider participation than if the scheme weren't in operation.

On the downside my guess is the trial has caused more negative publicity than positive and I remain convinced the EUC community will suffer as a result.

[Kekafuch]

1 hour ago, winterwheel said:

The point I was trying to make is that it is up to us to help the public draw the distinction between the two. If we don't do it, surely nobody else will. When we start citing accidents and whatnot for scooters as if they were equally applicable to us, then we're failing in that and yes, we'll end up suffering the consequences that arise from bad scooter behaviour.

The culture of a scooter rider and EUC rider is more similar than dissimilar. Major news topics like the actor getting hit and run by a escooter is relevant to EUC riders as we occupy the same physical space and commercial space and judged by the same public opinion… an opinion which eventually  can influence policy makers. 
 

My opinion is if the city were to clamp down on PEV users …. That it would be EUC users getting axed before escooters even though its escooters causing accidents! Escooters have larger lobbying power. They are safer by design. If there’s pressure to limit the streets, fast machines will be taken when found breaking the laws. Homebuilts and niche devices (EUC) banned outright from being on the roadways. 

[GoGeorgeGo]

15 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

I largely agree with that, I can't speak for elsewhere but in the UK my understanding is the rental scheme was introduced as a temporary way of allowing a greater number of people to try the Escooters during the trial period. My guess is the trial is largely to gauge public opinion and to assess the risk.

Clearly a rental only scheme isn't ideal as a long term solution but I do think it does have merits during the trial. Rental machines will be properly maintained, traceable, and have some blanket insurance. It does allow for greater rider participation than if the scheme weren't in operation.

On the downside my guess is the trial has caused more negative publicity than positive and I remain convinced the EUC community will suffer as a result.

To be fair, the only possible outcome was negative press. No one clicks on "e-scooters are amazing and why everyone needs to start riding them!!". They read the headline and move on. But what does get clicks? "Famous Acctress killed by electric scooter" , "Escooters are destroying our way of life and must be stopped" , "Dangerous new technology injuring children at alarming rates."

Unfortunately in todays age we no longer have news outlets, we have media. And medias job is to get clicks. And statistically, negative stories get more clicks. People whant the juicey details and will click article after article to get it. Happy go lucky stories are one offs at best, you cant milk it for revenue. Positivity also doesnt pull at peoples emotions the same way negativity does. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[mrelwood]

7 hours ago, Treatz said:

It’s time for moderators to step in, please.

If anyone suspects or feels that a post is against the rules of the forum, please click the three dots at the top right corner of the post in question and choose "Report". The moderator team will look into it.

The first rule written in the forum rules is "Be good to one another." While it could ask for more than what many of us are equipped with, please treat every single forum member with respect, no matter how incredibly childish, stupid, dangerous and WRONG you feel that his/her opinions are. Never attack the person, only comment on and disagree with the post/opinion/idea itself.

No matter how much I might personally disagree with some comments on this very topic, they have all the same rights to be posted on this forum than any of mine. Unless the post or the user clearly violates forum rules, general decency or anyone's safety, the post and the user shall remain a part of this forum. And we all simply have to deal with it. This is not Reddit.

[shellac]

Is someone able to program a couple bots to post the same arguments back and forth in this thread? I think it would save some people a lot of time and effort instead of doing it manually. 

[Treatz]

 

2 hours ago, Tasku said:

 

Let me fill in:

Misinformation, opinions, sidetracks, non-sense, trolling fo sure, more news headlines re-writen with imagination, nightmares?, just some general venting, attacking other members, accusing other members and what not. This is living up to its name. But unlike tire change thread, this thread does not serve generally good purpose.  Where "How to sharpen your pitchfork guide", would be something informative. This topic has as much factual value to it as "Sports-bar versus Cyber-cafe, what is better?" conversation.

Absolutely, not only will I allow it, I will offer you the exact same courtesy

This topic is of extremely high value, contrary to your statement. The topic is safety, concern for others and reflecting on how we want to be seen. What, to you, is more important than those topics when it comes to EUC’s?

As for the “misinformation, opinions, sidetracks, nonsense and trolling” that you accuse others of: those are all terms that I believe accurately describe your posts during this thread. I can’t see a single place where you helped bring the topic on track and many instances where you throw out blanket statements that are off topic. 

It appears we are both now filled in.

[AssassinOTL]

I understand everyone is heated about this, but no matter how you look at it I think it’s time to put the pitchforks down don’t you think? It’s almost feeling like Twitter cancel culture at this point. I understand everyone is emotionally charged right now, and we’re 18 pages deep into this discussion. But I think it’s time to just heal and let it blow over if the discussion is causing more dissent than the community being helped by it if we’re just going to report anyone that opposes our opinion. 

[Treatz]

34 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

they have all the same rights to be posted on this forum than any of mine. Unless the post or the user clearly violates forum rules, general decency or anyone's safety, the post and the user shall remain a part of this forum. And we all simply have to deal with it. This is not Reddit.

That’s fair. Thank you. It’s just the EUC forum is supposed to be one my happy places :D.  

When I see people defending behavior that’s unsafe, rude and projects an unfriendly image — it baffles me. Why?!? What’s the advantage of doing that? Who is it for? And then, when people object to that behavior, they are further subjected to insults and accusations. People characterizing concern for all of us as “hate” and “bullying” is just outside the realm of reason. I won’t accept it, personally. Not for a moment.

To be honest, I was really surprised by a few people’s resistance to the original post. I mean, even Winterwheel finally said he doesn’t approve of scaring people, and yet, even though the video shows exactly that, he says in the same post “I do not feel the video shows an incredibly bad look for the community” when the video he supports shows people genuinely in fear. 

Seriously, Winterwheel, with all respect, how is anyone supposed to respond to your posts when you do that? I’m asking with 100% sincerity now. 

And then, when talk about exactly that (scaring people), Winterwheel and others act like we’re wrong for having that view and then escalate it to the point that they are bullies.

How are we supposed to address that as a community? 

How about this: does an ignore feature exist or can we get one for people who don’t subscribe to the rules of reasonable discourse? 

 

[AssassinOTL]

 

2 minutes ago, Treatz said:

That’s fair. Thank you. It’s just the EUC forum is supposed to be one my happy places :D.  

When I see people defending behavior that’s unsafe, rude and projects an unfriendly image — it baffles me. Why?!? What’s the advantage of doing that? Who is it for? And then, when people object to that behavior, they are further subjected to insults and accusations. People characterizing concern for all of us as “hate” and “bullying” is just outside the realm of reason. I won’t accept it, personally. Not for a moment.

To be honest, I was really surprised by a few people’s resistance to the original post. I mean, even Winterwheel finally said he doesn’t approve of scaring people, and yet, even though the video shows exactly that, he says in the same post “I do not feel the video shows an incredibly bad look for the community” when the video he supports shows people genuinely in fear. 

Seriously, Winterwheel, with all respect, how is anyone supposed to respond to your posts when you do that? I’m asking with 100% sincerity now. 

And then, when talk about exactly that (scaring people), Winterwheel and others act like we’re wrong for having that view and then escalate it to the point that they are bullies.

How are we supposed to address that as a community? 

How about this: does an ignore feature exist or can we get one for people who don’t subscribe to the rules of reasonable discourse? 

 

Again. I think everyone has said their piece. And you can’t change everyone’s mind. I fought for everyone to have the freedom to their own opinion, and I think blocking out anyone in the community will not help anything honestly. Maybe you’ll both agree on something down the line, or connect on a new wheel coming out soon. No point Im burning bridges over a disagreement.

 

Because one day, I’d like everyone says, we’ll be riding in a big March probably to try to get some laws reversed if something like restrictions in the EU happens, we’ll all be there, and want to put our word in. I just think it’s time to lay this one down and not continue little fights here and there. 

[Treatz]

3 hours ago, Camenbert said:

If that single video can have an impact on thousand pedestrians, making them more careful about silent danger, why would you like that we become mad about it?

I now understand why we’re at 18 pages.

When you watched that video, you saw public education meant for the edification of the average pedestrian. 

[winterwheel]

An ignore feature does exist; I do not mind in the least if anyone chooses to use it on me, I make use of it myself.

 

[winterwheel]

14 minutes ago, Treatz said:

Seriously, Winterwheel, with all respect, how is anyone supposed to respond to your posts when you do that? I’m asking with 100% sincerity now. 

There have been many requests to end this thread; were it otherwise I'd try to craft a thoughtful response to this question.

[Treatz]

2 minutes ago, AssassinOTL said:

 

Again. I think everyone has said their piece.

I want what you want, so it’s interesting you’re directing that at me.

But have they said their piece?  They keep commenting and quoting me (and misquoting me) so I am responding now since they refused to let the conversation rest. I’m being respectful, but I won’t be gaslit…not one bit.

 

[Treatz]

12 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

There have been many requests to end this thread; were it otherwise I'd try to craft a thoughtful response to this question.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but are you saying you are one of the people who tried to end this thread?

[Tasku]

I do hope certain someone(s) would stop attacking @winterwheel. 
This is what I know of him or think of knowing him.
He is from Canada, (possibly elderly, yet he feels young) a human being.
He has trained multiple people to operate EUC.
More than most of us can brag with, just to point it out.
Winterwheel has good reputation for looong time, unlike some 2bit gangstaz here.

He has training method to improve people with confidence in themselves. He is part of community within a community, these personal attacks against his different approach to EUC and using em at trails and offroad is to his own. The culture where I come from respects elderly, not try to internet bully em, yes even I would not agree with em. Constantly his writing are taken out of context and twisted as if he said something else. Just my 2cents. 

There have been many of us asking stop trashing community members. In this topic.

Please respect others.

The ignore button is there, but why come here if your view is to ignore.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Tasku
Winterwheel denies being old so, calls for edit

[AssassinOTL]

3 minutes ago, Tasku said:

I do hope certain someone(s) would stop attacking @winterwheel. 
This is what I know of him or think of knowing him.
He is from Canada, possibly elderly person.
He has trained multiple people to operate EUC.
More than most of us can brag with, just to point it out.
Winterwheel has good reputation for looong time, unlike some 2bit gangstaz here.

He has training method to improve people with confidence in themselves. He is part of community within a community, these personal attacks against his different approach to EUC and using em at trails and offroad is to his own. The culture where I come from respects elderly, not try to internet bully em, yes even I would not agree with em. Constantly his writing are taken out of context and twisted as if he said something else. Just my 2cents. 

There have been many of us asking stop trashing community members. In this topic.

Please respect others.

The ignore button is there, but why come here if your view is to ignore.

Yeah I’m just about ready for the community to go back to what it was before, but this is dragging all the attention from the new riders that need help, or people trying to find groups or info on new wheels, now it’s just people trying to find a deleted video and past drama. I think we can go on as a community and not open up old wounds or make new ones. 

[winterwheel]

7 minutes ago, Tasku said:

He is from Canada, possibly elderly person.

That hurt... it's going to be a few years before that applies. Thanks for the rest of it though.

Edit: (The elderly part, I feel blessed every day to be Canadian. )

Edited June 25, 2021 by winterwheel

[mrelwood]

35 minutes ago, Treatz said:

It’s just the EUC forum is supposed to be one my happy places :D.

Mine as well. 

35 minutes ago, Treatz said:

When I see people defending behavior that’s unsafe, rude and projects an unfriendly image — it baffles me.

Me too.

35 minutes ago, Treatz said:

People characterizing concern for all of us as “hate” and “bullying” is just outside the realm of reason.

I agree.

35 minutes ago, Treatz said:

I won’t accept it, personally.

Me neither. But in a discussion forum letting something slide doesn’t mean giving up, accepting, or admitting defeat. I for example stopped replying to the actual topic a while ago, as I simply realized that I’m not getting paid nearly enough!

(That was a joke. I don’t get paid at all.)

35 minutes ago, Treatz said:

How are we supposed to address that as a community?

Maybe think of it as a drunk uncle in a wedding. You are allowed to disapprove and disagree, but you can’t take the bottle out of his hands (until he’s dancing on the table without pants). You simply need to bite your tongue, and accept that some people are and stay wrong.

Ignore function indeed does exist. Just hover your mouse above the poster’s nickname on the left side of the post and choose “Ignore”. Seems like it would be well placed here.