Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Camenbert]

4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

They weigh nearly 30Kg and they can go over 40mph - they're definitely not bicycles! What's worse is many riders (at least the e-scooter riders...

You are breaking down open doors here,

the choice is bicycle-like law, with 25 kph limit built-in and full access to bicycle path, and most/all pedestrian area
or no restriction as half motorbike, except following their (& car) rules.

Otherwise (rental) e-scooter are not eucs, as seen in previous pages,
as unrestricted eucs are not bicycles indeed,
as cars are not motorcycle too...

Edited June 28, 2021 by Camenbert

[RockyTop]

Have you ever watched the videos of bicycles passing cars going 50MPH? ( down hill but still) Have you ever tried to keep up with a triathlete on a bicycle?  I have and I can’t do it on my old MSX. (35MPH) It takes two EUCs to keep up with my daughter when she is training. She goes down hills faster than I can and I have to swap out EUCs every 25 miles. ( She trains 50 miles or more) The batteries just can’t take the demand. 
 

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

9 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm also all for insurance on these wheels and probably just third party insurance otherwise it would be too expensive. To get that insurance I think you need to have a valid driving or motorbike license. You should also be required to wear a helmet. Wheels should also be required to have front and rear lights plus a brake light.  

I also think 3rd party insurance is ideal. The proplrm in Portugal is that the insurance companies only insure PEVs that - once again - don't exceed 25km/k and 0.2kW...which means, NO INSURANCE FOR EUC RIDERS!!! Catch 22 over here... 

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Camenbert said:

You are breaking down open doors here,

the choice is bicycle-like law, with 25 kph limit built-in and full access to bicycle path, and most/all pedestrian area
or no restriction as half motorbike, except following their (& car) rules.

Otherwise (rental) e-scooter are not eucs, as seen in previous pages,
as unrestricted eucs are not bicycles indeed,
as cars are not motorcycle too...

My point is that in many countries, like mine, they put everything in the same bag, when it comes to laws and fines!!! The regulators make no distinctions 😔. 

I don't see how the manufacturers would come out with certified 25km/hour limitations for EUCs, when there still are hardly any decent EUC stores in Europe that can even repair EUCs. 

The only thing that would make sense, at least in my country, would be fuul legality so that we'd be protected and with no issues with the police. 

But that's here... maybe where you live things could be fine differently. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

On 6/27/2021 at 5:05 AM, Sumako said:

To answer your question:
Because there is ZERO connection between an Escooter and our EUCs.
To start off with it’s a unicycle, and electric one. Not a scooter. Scooters have at least 2 wheels. Next, the EUC is an electric  gyroscopic mono-cycle; aka Electric self balancing unicycle. Again, NOTHING to do with a scooter. These 2 completely different technologies come with different riding physics all together. To do what you saw in the ally cat race on aN “Escooter” would Have been next to impossible. I say this because when you ride an EUC it is as if the wheel is one with your body, your legs. That’s a huge advantage over any other EV, in areas of agility, response, and maneuvering. If you have a problem with this last line, that tells me and any experienced rider, that you don’t ride everyday, you are not working on bettering your riding skills. I’m not saying you have to ride like a nut case like some of these NYC riders. NO! But you do need enough time on your wheel, for your safety, to be able to maneuver out of the way of cars who other wise could have tapped you. Just so y’all know, I am a very conservative rider. I don’t do high speed shit. That’s because I am new to this sport/hobby. It’s also because I am rocking a Tesla V2. What I am able to do with this thing as a BEGINNER has blown my mind. Which is why I have a hard time understanding why y’all had zero confidence in more experienced riders who can out maneuver nearly anything in crowded traffic. 

Let’s get this CORRECT: Riders who do not agree with or not see the connection between Escooters and EUCs are NOT TROLLING you. They are telling an actual fact. A fact that is agreed upon by city leaders and the police departments. I learned this through discussing these issues with my city’s Bike and PEV department Executive Director. 

Lastly, the Escooter that NYC are talking about are the ones that look like a Honda Elite 80 from 1985. Those have been the Escooters who have been harming people. 

Pro-Tip y’all, instead of going after a youtuber over one stupid video, and going on and on about your fears of losing your ride; be smart, trying getting together a non-profit advocacy group for PEVs in your area. Take the time to learn how to do this. Connect with your local politicians. Make friends out of your city council members.

Bitching about Mickey is not going to help you here. Taking the lead in your community to protect your brother and sister riders in your area will.   

Very interesting!!!  👍

I only have one small comment: unfortunately, to the general public and authorities... All PEVs are the same " strange, insane, dangerous, lunatic" thing that leaves them very uncomfortable. 

... and perception, nowadays, is everything... unfortunately too... 

[mike_bike_kite]

21 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

the choice is bicycle-like law, with 25 kph limit built-in and full access to bicycle path, and most/all pedestrian area
or no restriction as half motorbike, except following their (& car) rules.

If you ride an EUC that's the same speed as an ordinary bicycle then I see no problem with you riding wherever a bicycle can go. If you ride an EUC that goes as fast as a moped then you should follow the same rules as mopeds (insurance, driving license etc). It seems fairly logical to me but it might be difficult to legislate for but a lot of folks here seem to want to be treated by the law as a pedestrian when they ride on the sidewalk and as a bicycle when they ride at 30 mph in traffic. 

21 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

Otherwise (rental) e-scooter are not eucs, as seen in previous pages,
as unrestricted eucs are not bicycles indeed,
as cars are not motorcycle too...

The public (and the law in many countries) treat EUCs, e-scooters and e-skates as exactly the same (as PEVs). This sort of makes sense as it takes a long time to create laws and, rather than create a new law each time a new PEV appears, it's better to have generic laws. It also makes it easier for the public to understand. Motorbikes might not be cars but they have to obey the same rules as cars. As should we if we're on the road.

9 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Have you ever watched the videos of bicycles passing cars going 50MPH? ( down hill but still) Have you ever tried to keep up with a triathlete on a bicycle?  I have and I can’t do it on my old MSX. (35MPH) It takes two EUCs to keep up with my daughter when she is training. She goes down hills faster than I can and I have to swap out EUCs every 25 miles. ( She trains 50 miles or more) The batteries just can’t take the demand. 

"Some" people can reach those speeds on a bicycle in certain situations but it's not the norm. Pedestrians can actually reach 100 mph by just stepping off the top of buildings but again it's not the norm. Normal is bicycles riding along at around 15 mph and pedestrians walking at around 3 mph. I rarely ride below 20 mph on my 16S and I expect I'll be cruising in the high 20's on my Nik+.

15 minutes ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

I also think 3rd party insurance is ideal. The proplrm in Portugal is that the insurance companies only insure PEVs that - once again - don't exceed 25km/k and 0.2kW...which means, NO INSURANCE FOR EUC RIDERS!!! Catch 22 over here... 

It makes you wonder, if you were an insurance firm, how much would you charge to cover 3rd party insurance on PEVs or even just EUCs. Remember you'd have to be able to pay out for vehicle damage or medical bills for pedestrians etc. Would you want to see a valid drivers license? No claims? Would you want to see a maximum speed on the EUC? If that imagined charge is too much for us to pay then that's why no-one is offering insurance. If it's affordable then why not group together and offer insurance.

[Paulo Mesquita]

I ride my EUC at an average speed between 16km/h and 19km/h. With an occasional tip does of 33/37km/h stretch once every ride. 

I've been overtaken frequently by flying e-bikes and e-scooters. They are clearly the big problem of public perception, not half a dozen lunatics self balancing themselves, and avoiding to break their necks, on a single wheel 😂😂😂😂

Edited June 28, 2021 by Paulo Mesquita

[Camenbert]

Just now, Paulo Mesquita said:

I've been overtaken frequently by flying e-bikes and e-scooters. They are clearly the big problem of public perception, not half a dozen lunatics self balancing themselves, and avoiding to break their necks, on a single wheel 😂😂😂😂

Thank you, you just perfectly explain why I did not agree to play moralist after one video about one race, we have much bigger problems to deal with (sometime the pedestrian themselves).

I guess who see euc as the future of clean urban transportation want minimum rules, built in speed limitation is a small fee (and chinese will make sure you can hack your wheel), I believe what we got in France will spread in EU within 5 years or so.

Who see eucs as a sport want to stay unnoticed I guess, this might explain few reaction?

45 kph "speed bike" have been legalize about 10 years after 25 kph "e-assist" ones.
I am confident eucs will have similar future

[yoos]

2 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

I don't see how the manufacturers would come out with certified 25km/hour limitations for EUCs

This might be a smaller technical/legal problem than it seems. Some powerful e-scooters are already shipped with a "hard" limit of 25kph. That limit is enforced via a particular wire within the scooter but that wire can easily be disconnected (it features a user-friendly connector begging to be disconnected ). This unlocks the true max speed (e.g. 65kph). Instructions how to do this are readily available. iirc dualtron scooters do this (when shipping to regions with strict speed limits).

Of course we all understand (unlike the general public) that you cannot physically limit an EUC (since the choice is always accelerate or let the rider faceplant). However, you can surely make a very uncomfortable tiltback, annoying beeps and something else perhaps to please the regulators. Removing this limit (or shifting the tiltback to higher speeds) should neither be too easy, nor too difficult. The general public/beginners/kids would then stick to the 25kph tiltback while serious riders would eventually push the limits.

Edited June 28, 2021 by yoos

[Paulo Mesquita]

26 minutes ago, yoos said:

This might be a smaller technical/legal problem than it seems. Some powerful e-scooters are already shipped with a "hard" limit of 25kph. That limit is enforced via a particular wire within the scooter but that wire can easily be disconnected (it features a user-friendly connector begging to be disconnected ). This unlocks the true max speed (e.g. 65kph). Instructions how to do this are readily available. iirc dualtron scooters do this (when shipping to regions with strict speed limits).

Of course we all understand (unlike the general public) that you cannot physically limit an EUC (since the choice is always accelerate or let the rider faceplant). However, you can surely make a very uncomfortable tiltback, annoying beeps and something else perhaps to please the regulators. Removing this limit (or shifting the tiltback to higher speeds) should neither be too easy, nor too difficult. The general public/beginners/kids would then stick to the 25kph tiltback while serious riders would eventually push the limits.

@yoos that reasoning makes all the sense!!! 

[winterwheel]

This has been mentioned before, but there are a fair few of us I think who believe the end state should be regulated behavior rather than regulated devices. A lot of the device regulation is discriminatory against heavier riders, and also inhibits the evolution of our devices.

In the early days (circa 1901) autos were regulated to have a top speed of 12mph in the interest of public safety. But useful technology is very hard to stop and the effort to prevent cars from travelling at unsafe speeds was wildly unsuccessful.

Edited June 28, 2021 by winterwheel

[Tasku]

8 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

This has been mentioned before, but there are a fair few of us I think who believe the end state should be regulated behavior rather than regulated devices. A lot of the device regulation is discriminatory against heavier riders, and also inhibits the evolution of our devices

Limiting tiltback to should be enough. No penalty for heavy riders and that 45 km/h class, would be big step. The next step from that would be licence plate and "all but highways" open for EUC.

But I think there are conditions like heavy rain and windy conditions none should not get next to em cars. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[winterwheel]

We share the road with cars regularly. It's just a matter of knowing your wheel and riding defensively.

[Gasmantle]

On 6/29/2021 at 2:02 AM, winterwheel said:

We share the road with cars regularly. It's just a matter of knowing your wheel and riding defensively.

Yes, and that means not racing through a major city at breakneck speeds oblivious of the danger to others.

[GothamMike]

10 hours ago, Gasmantle said:

Yes, and that means not racing through a major city at breakneck speeds oblivious of the danger to others.

Pedestrians are LOSERS, cuz that's how we roll.

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, GothamMike said:

Pedestrians are LOSERS, cuz that's how we roll.

I hope you are joking or just being ironic...

[GothamMike]

2 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

I hope you are joking or just being ironic...

Both. I have heard ryderz use similar expressions. They never grew up and still worship the skateboard culture.

[UniVehje]

https://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/paris-miriam-la-jeune-femme-renversee-par-une-trottinette-est-decedee-18-06-2021-7RBZH2PIXZCQVLHLDAVKK3BC6A.php

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=fi&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hs.fi%2Fulkomaat%2Fart-2000008094783.html

Our biggest newspaper had an article today about Paris wanting to ban electric scooters after a pedestrian died. We have also had one MP suggesting a law limiting the speeds even lower than 25 km/h after an article in newspapers that 25 % of nightly emergency room customers have fallen on rental scooters. 

All it really takes is one bad news and the politicians jump in to "solve" it. 

[Camenbert]

Yes, like all around the world, rental e-scooter is a serious problem, and there are voice to ban them, including myself.
There are sometime these rental e-scooter laying in the middle of bike path, everywhere, a mess.
I was wrong about the 2 men on that e-scooter in Paris, in fact it was 2 ladies, 2 young nurses (arrested since)!

Aren't we far from Hooliganism, deliberate lack of respect to others, or some kind of race here ?!
They rented this e-scooter to go home at 1am (15 km away), completely drunk as you might guess.

I don't give any credit to all PEV beeing limited to speeds even lower than 25 km/h because of drunk driving, this is total vaporware.
Because whatever the speed, drunk driving on rental will kill - so commonly seen on e-scooter, but also bicycle etc (especially if you live far, to not take back the car)
A possibility, serious at a time, was to equip electric rental pev with breath analyzer, to avoid drunk driving, but obvious hygienic problem occurs, without to mention current pandemic.

If the rental scheme should survive, Yes I would like to see rental e-scooter with 20, 15, less, speed limitation. My vote is 6-8 kph so they stay on the sidewalks and dont obstruct my way on bike-path. Hopefully this will also push to own 25 kph PEV and not rent them, forcing to behave responsible as owner.

Aren't we far from EUCs?

Edited July 1, 2021 by Camenbert

[mrelwood]

27 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

Aren't we far from EUCs

I wish we were. But if the scooter top speed gets lowered, we go down with them.

 That does leave the question about e-bikes though. I would think that even if such a law comes to pass, it would not include e-bikes. If there only were a method of getting lumped up with them instead. That is probably a pipe dream though.

[Camenbert]

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I would think that even if such a law comes to pass

Sorry, i just rewrite my comment, this is total vaporware (another word came to my mind) because the problem is not speed but driving under influence.
We have especially now a lot of drunk driving (on rentals, to go home in the middle of the night) because of celebrating the end of lock-down.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Camenbert

[Paulo Mesquita]

7 hours ago, GothamMike said:

Both. I have heard ryderz use similar expressions. They never grew up and still worship the skateboard culture.

Good point, Due to cultural ignorance on my side, I wasn't aware of that kind of statement. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

46 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

Yes, like all around the world, rental e-scooter is a serious problem, and there are voice to ban them, including myself.
There are sometime these rental e-scooter laying in the middle of bike path, everywhere, a mess.
I was wrong about the 2 men on that e-scooter in Paris, in fact it was 2 ladies, 2 young nurses (arrested since)!

Aren't we far from Hooliganism, deliberate lack of respect to others, or some kind of race here ?!
They rented this e-scooter to go home at 1am (15 km away), completely drunk as you might guess.

I don't give any credit to all PEV beeing limited to speeds even lower than 25 km/h because of drunk driving, this is total vaporware.
Because whatever the speed, drunk driving on rental will kill - so commonly seen on e-scooter, but also bicycle etc (especially if you live far, to not take back the car)
A possibility, serious at a time, was to equip electric rental pev with breath analyzer, to avoid drunk driving, but obvious hygienic problem occurs, without to mention current pandemic.

If the rental scheme should survive, Yes I would like to see rental e-scooter with 20, 15, less, speed limitation. My vote is 6-8 kph so they stay on the sidewalks and dont obstruct my way on bike-path. Hopefully this will also push to own 25 kph PEV and not rent them, forcing to behave responsible as owner.

Aren't we far from EUCs?

Good points. Youi have no idea where I've seen abandoned rental e-scooters by party goers and drunk drivers. Even inside trains and pools

[.....]

39 minutes ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

Good points. Youi have no idea where I've seen abandoned rental e-scooters by party goers and drunk drivers. Even inside trains and pools

FInders keepers, losers weepers! It aint like its hard to locate and remove tracking devices on the stupid things...   Thread derail for sure, and its about damn time.

Edited July 1, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[winterwheel]

A lady associated with our group, not drunk or under influences of any kind, came off a scooter and broke both wrists and had multiple related injuries. Speed: 15kmh.