Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Sumako]

1 hour ago, Mark13i said:

These words sound like the voice of a cheap oracle

I'm sorry I couldn't help myself 

LOL LOL LOL, that’s okay. I was in my cheap oracle kind of mood, burning incense with a recording of an “Ohm” Chant playing in the background. 

[Sumako]

20 minutes ago, Treatz said:

This thread was always about a simple matter of riding with consideration for others and not putting them in fear for their safety. That’s the only reason the ally cat video was referenced and discussion about it being a bad look for the community.  Simple.

Everything else = Distraction

 

@Treatz - I was deeply fascinated how you quoted my comment; “You completely missed the point”, to juxtipose it with your opinion that the tread is only about references to the Ally Cat race and it’s subsequent video. 

Did you even read and comprehend my full post? 

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, Sumako said:

Asking for laws that force other EUC riders to go to the  DMV and pay for registration on their EUC, plus buy mandatory liability insurance, and pay more taxes on their EUC, every year is DUMB, STUPID. To suggest such legislation is DISCONNECTED, as in TONE DEAF to the complete dynamics of the entire community’s diverse economic backgrounds as well as being lost on the fact that EUC’s are in no way on the same level as a car or MotorCycle. If you think your EUC is a motorcycle of some sort, you’re living in fantasy land.  

@Sumako, please re-read the first line of the forum rules, and act accordingly from now on:

 

[Treatz]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

I was deeply fascinated how you quoted my comment

Why? It’s basic.

Go back to Carl W’s comment.  His point was the same as the person who started this entire thread—unsafe behavior is not good for this community. You said he missed  your point. From what I’ve seen, you are missing the point of the thread itself. Am I wrong? Let’s see.

Do you believe that unsafe EUC rider behavior that puts pedestrians in danger gives a bad look to the community? Yes or no?

 

[Heyzeus]

3 hours ago, Treatz said:

Do you believe that unsafe EUC rider behavior that puts pedestrians in danger gives a bad look to the community? Yes or no?

 

I don't have a paintball gun and have only played once or twice in my life but I've known people who did paintball as a hobby and they were adamant about calling out (almost militantly so) and not associating with bad actors in the community because they knew it was a short distance between a few articles and news reports about some assholes driving around shooting old people and cats with paintball guns and their sport being completely banned in some areas or even more heavily regulated.

We are ambassadors of our hobby whether we wish to be or not by the fact of it being so niche.

If the EUC community, especially in these more populated regions and groups with large group rides doesn't call out bad actors for bad/unsafe riding behavior (whether on the streets around cars or on boardwalks or bike paths around pedestrians) and shame them internally in the group by refusing to ride with them, let them participate in group rides, or put them on a blacklist from participating in EUC events like the sponsored races last year or something, until they improve their behavior, then the problem will only get worse and riders will more often be associated with negativity than positivity.

I don't know, I haven't done a group ride but I would rather have @Marty Backe smack the back of my helmet and tell me to ride more mindfully than have cops pulling me over and telling me I'm not allowed to ride around Newport Beach because wheels have been banned by the local city council. I'm not perfect, I think we all have the capacity to sometimes get a little carried away when we ride and get lost in the moment, but if someone calls you out for doing something dumb it doesn't mean you're a bad person, just accept the input and maybe rethink whether you were being unsafe or a good ambassador rather than getting insulted by it.  

Basically if we don't police ourselves, then laws and regulations will be made and the police will police us, so pick your poison I guess.

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Heyzeus

[Paul A]

17 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

If I just capture one moment in time of the entire video please calmly explain “who has the right of way”? 

 

Hello Rehab1,

Hope you are well, thank you for your contribution.

Would you have a link to the video to share?

Some members of the community may not have had the opportunity to view it in its entirety before.

Thank you.

[Sumako]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

@Sumako, please re-read the first line of the forum rules, and act accordingly from now on:

 

In the United States; asking for laws that force other EUC riders to go to the  DMV and pay for registration on their EUC, plus buy mandatory liability insurance, and pay more taxes on their EUC, every year is incongruous, and discordant.  To suggest such legislation needs to be passed demonstrates a complete lack of understanding to the unique dynamics of the entire community’s diverse economic backgrounds. It also shows no effort in learning about the existing laws in your state that actually guide PEVs, or at least common sense on how to apply said laws to an EUC, since some PEV laws call out more than 2 wheels.  American laws guiding ALL Electric MIcro Mobility vehicles are this: You can not got past 25mph on any road/street/highway. Unless other wise posted you can go beyond 25mph on any bike lane or bike path. Accepting this FACT makes your whole life as an EUC rider a whole lot easier. 

 

@mrelwood - is this more acceptable? 

[Paul A]

Registration and/or licensing enables the capability to identify to an individual for accountability.

Accountability deters reckless, irresponsible behaviour that endangers others.

It targets, discriminating only transgressors with a sliding scale of options for sanctions.

Options can range and include: a warning, a fine, demerit points, good behaviour bond, suspension, cancellation, confiscation, civil lawsuit, damages/compensation, criminal prosecution, criminal conviction, jail etc.

 

Without capabilities to identify an individual offender, if and when control measures are introduced, they may be a blunt instrument that applies to the homogenous group.

A blunt instrument may invoke the aforementioned measures including but not limited to: blanket ban on EUCs, confiscation, destruction, speed/power restrictions or limitations, harsh penalties, change of stance from a blind eye to active crack downs, etc.

Everyone will bear the impacts that are the consequence of the actions of a few, regardless of their attitudes and actions to safety and responsible behaviour.

 

If there were a hit and run incident causing death, it might be preferable for the offender to be quickly identified, arrested and prosecuted.

It would contain and limit the damage, it would negate contagion to the reputation, freedoms, public and law maker sentiments etc to the entire community.

 

[.....]

4 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

 

I don't know, I haven't done a group ride but I would rather have @Marty Backe smack the back of my helmet and tell me to ride more mindfully than have cops pulling me over and telling me I'm not allowed to ride around Newport Beach because wheels have been banned by the local city council. I'm not perfect, I think we all have the capacity to sometimes get a little carried away when we ride and get lost in the moment, but if someone calls you out for doing something dumb it doesn't mean you're a bad person, just accept the input and maybe rethink whether you were being unsafe or a good ambassador rather than getting insulted by it.  

Basically if we don't police ourselves, then laws and regulations will be made and the police will police us, so pick your poison I guess.

 

I reject the authority of anyone who attempts to modify my behavior. I barely recognize that  law enforcement is allowed to do so. Any of my 'friends' smack me on the head to try and police my actions, would quickly realize they arent my friends. I tolerate a lot, but having people around as friends that also think its their duty to decide how I should behave? Get a life and make sure its not near mine. Leave the policing to the police. I'd much rather a ticket and confrontation with actual authority, than losing a friend because they want to be my mother and act as authority themselves. I expect the police to act as they are paid to, not my friends.  Regulating OURSEVLES means OURSELVES. Not allowing other people to regulate. Just because you also ride an euc, it doesnt give you ANY say over how I behave. If you don't like it, dont associate.

Edited July 6, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Sumako]

6 hours ago, Treatz said:

Why? It’s basic.

Go back to Carl W’s comment.  His point was the same as the person who started this entire thread—unsafe behavior is not good for this community. You said he missed  your point. From what I’ve seen, you are missing the point of the thread itself. Am I wrong? Let’s see.

Do you believe that unsafe EUC rider behavior that puts pedestrians in danger gives a bad look to the community? Yes or no?

 

It’s not “basic” when you pull my words from a couple of my sentences addressing something completely different than the post you are crafting. The following is the original post you pulled from:

”You completely missed the point of that larger comment because you didn’t catch why I said that compelled registration was not needed, and the pursuit of it to be a legislated obligation for all EUC riders is “*****” “*****” and “**********”. We already have laws that govern EUCs. It’s very simple: You don’t ride faster than 25mph on roads and streets. You may ride past 25mph in any bike-lane unless specified“

Im not interested in Policing the riding habits of other riders. You and others have that handled pretty well. I am ONLY focused on maintaining and not expanding, any further, on the existing laws that govern our hobby wheels. Any attempt to create more government over reach into our hobby, including compelling riders to have to make annual tax/registration/insurance, is wrong for EUC riders in the United States. Plain and simple.     

[Sumako]

14 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Registration and/or licensing enables the capability to identify to an individual for accountability.

Accountability deters reckless, irresponsible behaviour that endangers others.

It targets, discriminating only transgressors with a sliding scale of options for sanctions.

Options can range and include: a warning, a fine, demerit points, good behaviour bond, suspension, cancellation, confiscation, civil lawsuit, damages/compensation, criminal prosecution, criminal conviction, jail etc.

 

Without capabilities to identify an individual offender, if and when control measures are introduced, they may be a blunt instrument that applies to the homogenous group.

A blunt instrument may invoke the aforementioned measures including but not limited to: blanket ban on EUCs, confiscation, destruction, speed/power restrictions or limitations, harsh penalties, change of stance from a blind eye to active crack downs, etc.

Everyone will bear the impacts that are the consequence of the actions of a few, regardless of their attitudes and actions to safety and responsible behaviour.

 

If there were a hit and run incident causing death, it might be preferable for the offender to be quickly identified, arrested and prosecuted.

It would contain and limit the damage, it would negate contagion to the reputation, freedoms, public and law maker sentiments etc to the entire community.

 

Well, let’s keep in mind this might be something that could make sense for Australia. Every country is different and has different needs. In the US, the States, we already PEV laws. Places like the UK, Authoritarian laws may help them get their EUCs street legal. 

[mrelwood]

 

42 minutes ago, Sumako said:

 

@mrelwood - is this more acceptable? 

This forum expects each member to have the capability to make the distinction themselves.

And as a non-moderating member of the global community :

44 minutes ago, Sumako said:

In the United States

…

As you have been reminded, this is not a US only discussion forum. And we are not talking about US EUC communities in this thread, but the global one. Most EUC riders do not live in the US.

Do you think that the gun laws in Europe are as tight as they are only because of how European people have used guys in the past? You might want to think that again. Any video in YT can affect anywhere in the world. For example a Finnish YT persona got a job from Hollywood because of her YT videos.

19 minutes ago, Sumako said:

Well, let’s keep in mind this might be something that could make sense for Australia.

… and for pretty much every country other than the US. That’s why calling the idea stupid or ignorant was a very narrow minded comment from you.

[Heyzeus]

45 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Any of my 'friends' smack me on the head to try and police my actions, would quickly realize they arent my friends.

Really, you've never had a friend give a playful tap/smack on the shoulder, back of the head etc and be like "dude, your being a bit much" or "dude, relax".  I don't mean like someone slapping your face hard or some crap and yelling at you like a drill sergeant, hell they don't even have to touch you. Self policing doesn't mean arresting or beating each other up, it simply means giving constructive feedback

Me and my old college friends were always heckling each other and if one us got too drunk and rowdy at a party while playing mario kart or whatever we would tell them to quite down and sit down so the people below us don't call the RA's or the police on us.  Bam, example of constructive self policing that doesn't result in friends getting pissed at each other for "telling the other what to do".  None of us got mad at the other friends for them helping us to not be such a drunk triceratops and sit on the couch and chill/sober up, at least none of us who were mature did.  And we damn sure rather would deal with our friends sitting us down, giving us some pie and water and telling us to sober up than deal with the cops.  Who the hell wants to deal with the cops, especially in this day and age.

My point more so is that sometimes it's good for friends and acquaintances to call us out when we are being "a bit much".  It's usually the process of that being done by friends and family that results in people growing up to be generally decent and respectable members of society that can function amongst one another.  Those who haven't been checked verbally or through group shaming or even in some cases physically, well, they are usually the ones that grow up to be the people that others talk about when they aren't around and say things like "yeah, that dude's insufferable and causes problems, lets not invite him out" or "he's too intense and can't take any criticism".

Just because you consider the input/opinion of others on how your actions affect others doesn't mean you are "Ceding authority over yourself" or some crap.  It's called being introspective, it's a generally good thing.

45 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

If you don't like it, dont associate.

Yeah, that's kind of the point, no one can really change someone else's behavior but they can choose who they spend time around.  Me personally, I choose to avoid spending time around those who would be a magnet for cops and confrontation.  Life is generally better that way.

So yeah, you do you but If the person has such a weak sense of self that they get offended or mad and butt hurt because their friend/group of riders called them out and said "Dude, slow down a bit, you just rode by that 5 year old holding their parents hand at 20mph, you don't know what that kid might do, they might see something they want, spaz out and run out in front of you not knowing you're coming up on them and you won't be able to avoid an accident if that happens" well, then, I guess they don't have to change their behavior but the group can also choose not to ride with them and the person can ride all by themselves in their community of one while listening to three dog night.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Heyzeus

[Mark13i]

27 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

Really, you've never had a friend give a playful tap/smack on the shoulder, back of the head etc and be like "dude, your being a bit much" or "dude, relax".  I don't mean like someone slapping your face hard or some crap and yelling at you like a drill sergeant, hell they don't even have to touch you. Self policing doesn't mean arresting or beating each other up, it simply means giving constructive feedback

Me and my old college friends were always heckling each other and if one us got too drunk and rowdy at a party while playing mario kart or whatever we would tell them to quite down and sit down so the people below us don't call the RA's or the police on us.  Bam, example of constructive self policing that doesn't result in friends getting pissed at each other for "telling the other what to do".  None of us got mad at the other friends for them helping us to not be such a drunk triceratops and sit on the couch and chill/sober up, at least none of us who were mature did.  And we damn sure rather would deal with our friends sitting us down, giving us some pie and water and telling us to sober up than deal with the cops.  Who the hell wants to deal with the cops, especially in this day and age.

My point more so is that sometimes it's good for friends and acquaintances to call us out when we are being "a bit much".  It's usually the process of that being done by friends and family that results in people growing up to be generally decent and respectable members of society that can function amongst one another.  Those who haven't been checked verbally or through group shaming or even in some cases physically, well, they are usually the ones that grow up to be the people that others talk about when they aren't around and say things like "yeah, that dude's insufferable and causes problems, lets not invite him out" or "he's too intense and can't take any criticism".

Just because you consider the input/opinion of others on how your actions affect others doesn't mean you are "Ceding authority over yourself" or some crap.  It's called being introspective, it's a generally good thing.

Yeah, that's kind of the point, no one can really change someone else's behavior but they can choose who they spend time around.  Me personally, I choose to avoid spending time around those who would be a magnet for cops and confrontation.  Life is generally better that way.

So yeah, you do you but If the person has such a weak sense of self that they get offended or mad and butt hurt because their friend/group of riders called them out and said "Dude, slow down a bit, you just rode by that 5 year old holding their parents hand at 20mph, you don't know what that kid might do, they might see something they want, spaz out and run out in front of you not knowing you're coming up on them and you won't be able to avoid an accident if that happens" well, then, I guess they don't have to change their behavior but the group can also choose not to ride with them and the person can ride all by themselves in their community of one while listening to three dog night.

 

 

You wrote the obvious obviousness.  Every social group, every relationship between people;  friendly, partner - has its own "rules" (also unwritten).  This is described by: non-zero-sum game theory.  Even when playing cards, it happens that some player can hear from the rest: "It's not an acceptable move, we don't play like that".  Shanes abides by the forum rules, corrects those who do not respect them and will not be offended if someone corrects them.  Surely, in friendship he has the same but does not notice it

[.....]

1 hour ago, Heyzeus said:

Really, you've never had a friend give a playful tap/smack on the shoulder, back of the head etc and be like "dude, your being a bit much" or "dude, relax".  I don't mean like someone slapping your face hard or some crap and yelling at you like a drill sergeant, hell they don't even have to touch you. Self policing doesn't mean arresting or beating each other up, it simply means giving constructive feedback

Me and my old college friends were always heckling each other and if one us got too drunk and rowdy at a party while playing mario kart or whatever we would tell them to quite down and sit down so the people below us don't call the RA's or the police on us.  Bam, example of constructive self policing that doesn't result in friends getting pissed at each other for "telling the other what to do".  None of us got mad at the other friends for them helping us to not be such a drunk triceratops and sit on the couch and chill/sober up, at least none of us who were mature did.  And we damn sure rather would deal with our friends sitting us down, giving us some pie and water and telling us to sober up than deal with the cops.  Who the hell wants to deal with the cops, especially in this day and age.

My point more so is that sometimes it's good for friends and acquaintances to call us out when we are being "a bit much".  It's usually the process of that being done by friends and family that results in people growing up to be generally decent and respectable members of society that can function amongst one another.  Those who haven't been checked verbally or through group shaming or even in some cases physically, well, they are usually the ones that grow up to be the people that others talk about when they aren't around and say things like "yeah, that dude's insufferable and causes problems, lets not invite him out" or "he's too intense and can't take any criticism".

Just because you consider the input/opinion of others on how your actions affect others doesn't mean you are "Ceding authority over yourself" or some crap.  It's called being introspective, it's a generally good thing.

Yeah, that's kind of the point, no one can really change someone else's behavior but they can choose who they spend time around.  Me personally, I choose to avoid spending time around those who would be a magnet for cops and confrontation.  Life is generally better that way.

So yeah, you do you but If the person has such a weak sense of self that they get offended or mad and butt hurt because their friend/group of riders called them out and said "Dude, slow down a bit, you just rode by that 5 year old holding their parents hand at 20mph, you don't know what that kid might do, they might see something they want, spaz out and run out in front of you not knowing you're coming up on them and you won't be able to avoid an accident if that happens" well, then, I guess they don't have to change their behavior but the group can also choose not to ride with them and the person can ride all by themselves in their community of one while listening to three dog night.

 

 

I can honestly say that I can't recall my 'friends' tell me I'm being a bit much while its happening. I'm sure its happened before, but i dont recall and its possible that it provoked a wretched response from me at the same time. My friends know that my resentment of being told how to act, mitigates ANY good that can come from it. When someone tries to tell me how to behave, I typically become combative and will worsen said behavior, just because I can. Chastising me or telling me what to do is an insult to my intelligence and an insult to my ability to make my own decisions. I have heard a 'you do realize that (blah blah blah) isnt acceptable around here?" To which I reply, oops, my bad, or that I could care less. Being informed of what is acceptable and what is not, is mildly different than attempting to modify behavior.  I am damn sure of who I am and thats why its an insult to insinuate they know better than I. You also wont ever hear me spout that crap "but they are doing it too". When I get caught doing something stupid, I take full responsibility and will try to protect others from getting in trouble for my actions. This captain aint afraid to go down with the ship!

 I've had my stint with a friend or two that ended up on death row. Never once did i feel the need to point out the obvious. I merely quit being in the same place that they were, during certain events. I absolve myself of ANY responsibility because I never once gave them my opinion on their behavior.  Some people kind of appreciate how I handle this tho. My moral compass is mine alone and I'm not employed in any field that is authority over anyone else. Go ahead, tell me you plan on committing mass felonies, I wont say a word and if I have any advice, it would simply be how to succeed. I may offer a reminder that being on camera and advertising it, could be a bad idea tho. The same EXACT point I'm tryng to make about the NYC rider video. Do wtf you want, just dont film that crap, durr!

@Mark13i I kind of abide by the rules here. It was rules I agreed to follow to be a member. Ok, sometimes I bend a little. If i went to a group ride that had rules I didnt want to follow, I'd be man enough to admit it and simply not be a part of it. I really am NOBODY around here tho. I'm not a mod and my opinion is just mine. Perhaps my friends DO attempt to modify my behavior. Perhaps they are smart enough to be so discrete about it that I dont notice. Perhaps I'm just totally full of sh*t and this herpes thread got the best of me again. I guess next week when I go to court for my 12th seatbelt violation, we will see if the Judge will get me to modify my behavior. Somehow I think my pocket will get lighter and it will simply be a miracle if I dont go to jail for contempt. Do what you will, but telling a judge to speak up, sit up, and show some respect, is not a good idea. oddly enough, incarceration only fuels the contempt, rather than modifies behavior.

Edited July 6, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Mark13i]

33 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Perhaps my friends DO attempt to modify my behavior. Perhaps they are smart enough to be so discrete about it that I dont notice. Perhaps I'm just totally full of sh*t and this herpes thread got the best of me again.

Certainly none of your friends want to change you (it would not be a friendship).  Maybe only sometimes they resemble what (in their opinion) you wanted from living in the ordinary days they know you - before you suddenly "lost".  

That's what friends are for - that's their role in this game.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I may offer a reminder that being on camera and advertising it, could be a bad idea tho. The same EXACT point I'm tryng to make about the NYC rider video. Do wtf you want, just dont film that crap, durr!

Isn’t that the exact same

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

insult to their intelligence and an insult to their ability to make their own decisions.

you said would offend you? (All “my” are replaced with “their” in the quote above.)

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

its an insult to insinuate they know better than I.

The fact is, there is always a person that does know some things better than you do.

But I’m sure you don’t really think that you are capable of taking every aspect of every single thing in consideration in everything you do. No-one can. There’s nothing wrong in not knowing everything, but there would be something wrong in thinking that one does. 

[.....]

7 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Isn’t that the exact same

you said would offend you? (All “my” are replaced with “their” in the quote above.)

The fact is, there is always a person that does know some things better than you do.

But I’m sure you don’t really think that you are capable of taking every aspect of every single thing in consideration in everything you do. No-one can. There’s nothing wrong in not knowing everything, but there would be something wrong in thinking that one does. 

Yup, you got me. Me suggesting that NYC riders NOT video illegal activity is the same. I also assume they would tell me to go f*ck myself and do as they think best for themselves. Pretty much, thats exactly what they have done and i cant fault them for it.

Of course people are more informed than I am. However, MOST people aren't trying to give information that is unknown. As if people didnt know that NOT wearing a helmet, speeding thru red lights and smoking cigarettes are bad for you. Most people are NOT attempting to educate, merely regulate. I find it odd theres a shortage of law enforcement, as a LOT of people seem to be more than willing to regulate everyone else.  

I do think I shall avoid this thread, as I've strayed from the point and am merely digging myself into a hole...

 

[Rehab1]

3 hours ago, Paul A said:

Would you have a link to the video to share?

Sorry but the video was pulled shortly after this topic began. I only captured a few screen shots that I felt threatened pedestrian’s safety. 

 

[Rehab1]

12 hours ago, Treatz said:

This thread was always about a simple matter of riding with consideration for others and not putting them in fear for their safety.

[Treatz]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

It’s not “basic” when you pull my words from a couple of my sentences addressing something completely different than the post you are crafting. The following is the original post you pulled from:

”You completely missed the point of that larger comment because you didn’t catch why I said that compelled registration was not needed, and the pursuit of it to be a legislated obligation for all EUC riders is “*****” “*****” and “**********”. We already have laws that govern EUCs. It’s very simple: You don’t ride faster than 25mph on roads and streets. You may ride past 25mph in any bike-lane unless specified“

Im not interested in Policing the riding habits of other riders. You and others have that handled pretty well. I am ONLY focused on maintaining and not expanding, any further, on the existing laws that govern our hobby wheels. Any attempt to create more government over reach into our hobby, including compelling riders to have to make annual tax/registration/insurance, is wrong for EUC riders in the United States. Plain and simple.     

It’s suspicious watching you complain about being misunderstood in response to being asked to state your position.

 

Do you believe that unsafe EUC rider behavior that puts pedestrians in danger gives a bad look to the community? Yes or no?

 

 

 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I do think I shall avoid this thread, as I've strayed from the point and am merely digging myself into a hole...

No no no! This thread has been mostly in the side of entertainment for a good while now. A little good ole holediggin’ fits right in! Please, continue! 

[GothamMike]

On 7/5/2021 at 9:10 AM, Rehab1 said:

If I just capture one moment in time of the entire video please calmly explain “who has the right of way”? 

 

I see a Red Light.

[OldFartRides]

 

6 hours ago, Paul A said:

Would you have a link to the video to share?

Thank you.

I don’t know if I did that right. There’s a permalink about six comments down.

Here is another NYC gang style ride. There’s plenty of them.

 

[mike_bike_kite]

37 minutes ago, OldFartRides said:

Here is another NYC gang style ride.

I'm honestly not sure if you understand the purpose of this thread. The majority of us would prefer these types of video to disappear as they just encourage idiots to ride in the same way because they think it's cool. It just makes it harder for us to ever become legal. I gave the video a thumbs down anyway.