Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Rehab1]

48 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You're still talking about that video, guys. Right guys?

Yep, I was under that impression. The original video was the impetus behind the initial topic/discussion. Hard to believe the topic is going on 1 month.  

Another example. Simple question: Disabled person has the Right Of Way or No Right Of Way?

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Rehab1

[Chriull]

34 minutes ago, CarlW said:

Being new to the forum I am still learning some of the features.  I just figured out how to make someone disappear.  What a nice way to start the day.

         

"Normal" forum members are really gifted! As moderators we do not have the ignore functionality...

[Paulo Mesquita]

3 hours ago, Paul A said:

PEVRA -  Personal Electric Vehicle Riders Association 388 Market Street, Suite 1300 • San Francisco, CA 94111 • 415-889-8895 • info@pevra.org

https://pevra.org

PEVRA exists to define a place on our roads, streets and public spaces for personal electric vehicles.

Our goal is 100% legal status for personal electric vehicles in all jurisdictions.

We are far from that goal today. Several countries — the United Kingdom, Germany, Singapore, and others — essentially create criminals of citizens seeking to transport themselves using a zero-emission, minimum-footprint mode of transportation.

 

PEVRA speaks out on behalf of its members and personal electric vehicle riders in the media.

PEVRA advocates for riders in formulation of public policy.

 

 

@Paul A t you touched the key point of this entire debate. And @Sumako this is a reality we'll all have to face wherever we are in the world: the worst PEV riders behave, in any country, the worse the enforcement laws will fall upon us. And as an ex advertiser I can state this with total certainty... it's civilian and media perception on our behavior that are going to push those laws forward. The better we behave the kinder will those laws be drawn. If we behave like the animals on the ally cat, we're going to get hit very hard, sledgehammer style, by the lawmakers of our own countries for a very long time, until PEVs are finally accepted, as they should, as the future of urban mobility. Until then it's up to us, the pioneers, to self discipline ourselves, so that we don't get hit really hard by the regulators in these early years.

I'm 200% sure that this is the dynamics we need to be aware of. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Mark13i said:

We don't talk about the movie - my friend

We talk according to the topic of the thread;  what kind of people we want to be to other people - it seems that we treat the title very literally and write very, very broadly 

So true!!!!! 👍👍👍

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, CarlW said:

Being new to the forum I am still learning some of the features.  I just figured out how to make someone disappear.  What a nice way to start the day.

         

I’ve done that. It gets expensive but feels good. 

 

[OldFartRides]

I would like to commend the mods here for their patience and intelligent responses.

Thank you all. Not an easy job for volunteer work.

Best,

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Another example. Simple question: Disabled person has the Right Of Way or No Right Of Way?

 

Duh, of course the one that’s in a race has the right of way! If the guy in a wheelchair is racing in a larger event than the one with the cam, wheelchair would have right of way. Otherwise, out of the way, sucker, this is NYC!

23 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

I’ve done that. It gets expensive but feels good. 

 

Hmm. I have wondered how an old iPad Mini 2 flies anyway…

16 minutes ago, OldFartRides said:

I would like to commend the mods here for their patience and intelligent responses.

Umm… what? 

[RockyTop]

OK , ........... So this topic has been fairly heated. 

We have strong opinions on both sides. 

This is an important topic to many people. The mods have been a bit more relaxed on this topic because it is important........ Although some warnings have been given. 

Please keep in mind that we live in very different places all over the world and there is no one right way of doing things. People vote how they like to live by becoming  strong members of their community and picking what communities or states or countries they live in. 

Personal attacks are not allowed on this forum. - if I call you an idiot, that is a personal attack. Calling an person’s idea stupid is not very friendly but it is not a personal attack. Please do your best to stay friendly in heated discussions. 
 

If you are new to the forum........... please check out our other topics for a more friendly environment. 
 

 

[Heyzeus]

12 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Voluntary insurance coverage can still be available for those who want it.

While I personally wouldn't want to have to go out and get a license(like take a test and all that stuff, I feel at the current point in california(May be different elsewhere) that would be excessive)....

 

if AAA offered insurance coverage that extended the liability coverage I have on my car to my wheel/scooter/PEV and had a $250/500? dollar deductible and would cover the cost of replacing the wheel if I crashed it and it was non functional and it had an annual premium that was reasonable like say around the cost of my renter's insurance, well, I would be all over that policy. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Heyzeus

[GoGeorgeGo]

40 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

While I personally wouldn't want to have to go out and get a license(like take a test and all that stuff, I feel at the current point in california(May be different elsewhere) that would be excessive)....

 

if AAA offered insurance coverage that extended the liability coverage I have on my car to my wheel/scooter/PEV and had a $250/500? dollar deductible and would cover the cost of replacing the wheel if I crashed it and it was non functional and it had an annual premium that was reasonable like say around the cost of my renter's insurance, well, I would be all over that policy. 

I cant imagine they would cover 98% of crashes honestly. If you where involved in a collision i can see them covering repairs. But if you cutout the machine, or got caught in a speed wobble, bounced off a pothole etc., i don't see a standard liability policy covering the damages. 

Insurance coverge tends to like to recoup their losses. And to do so, they need a third party to recoup them from. And considering the majority of euc accidents are user error, theres no recourse for the insurance policy to recover funds. 

That would be a different type of policy from liability insurance. 

Edit: a company like car shield offers car repair insurance. In my state, liability insurance is required for all motorists including motorcycles. However repair insurance is purely voluntary

Edited July 8, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[mike_bike_kite]

Even in a perfect world I suspect you'll only ever be able to get 3rd party insurance. 

[Sumako]

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You're still talking about that video, guys. Right guys?

edit: I meant as opposed to personal fights. Related discussions are fine, of course.

Dude they wont stop talking about it. 29 pages strong! LOL LOL LOL

[Rehab1]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Duh, of course the one that’s in a race has the right of way! If the guy in a wheelchair is racing in a larger event than the one with the cam, wheelchair would have right of way. Otherwise, out of the way, sucker, this is NYC!

Just wanted to make sure before I started marketing these wheelchair mods. 

 

4 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Please do your best to stay friendly in heated discussions. 

I’m trying to turn down the temp

[Sumako]

3 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

While I personally wouldn't want to have to go out and get a license(like take a test and all that stuff, I feel at the current point in california(May be different elsewhere) that would be excessive)....

 

if AAA offered insurance coverage that extended the liability coverage I have on my car to my wheel/scooter/PEV and had a $250/500? dollar deductible and would cover the cost of replacing the wheel if I crashed it and it was non functional and it had an annual premium that was reasonable like say around the cost of my renter's insurance, well, I would be all over that policy. 

Dude, contact my buddy, Jersey. He has insurance coverage specifically for PEV coverage from OneWheels to EUCs. Looks like you’re in the OC so this is an easy “get” for you: https://www.facebook.com/pacificsideinsurance

[Sumako]

Hey Y’all- In the United States- 

In New York City, a non-pedal assist type e-bike is allowed to ride up to 30mph in the city streets. Using common sense you figure out that is what EUCs fall into (You debate me on the wheel count, that’s you’re loss).

https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/ebikes.shtml

For every member in this forum, please take a moment to look up what your city laws are. As I have stated time and time again the average speed limit on non-pedal ebikes is 25mph in most cities. 

If your American city has laws like this, that means you’re EUC is STREET LEGAL. Full Stop, No Cap, Period!

For international folks with Zero legislation for your EV (EUC) then use this examples laws in the US as examples (see link above for NYC laws) to bring to your local parliament/legislator/elected official. 

Now a couple of you in the group live in the Orange County CA. If you live in or around Huntington Beach your Speed limit is 10mph. State beach parks like Balsa Chica, Last time I checked is 10mph as well.   

 

[mrelwood]

51 minutes ago, Sumako said:

In New York City, a non-pedal assist type e-bike is allowed to ride up to 30mph in the city streets. Using common sense you figure out that is what EUCs fall into

I wonder if the difference in legislation between EU and US comes from whether non-mentioned vehicles are allowed or forbidden. In here any vehicle that isn’t mentioned in traffic laws is automatically forbidden. Is it the opposite in the US?

[Sumako]

7 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

@Paul A t you touched the key point of this entire debate. And @Sumako this is a reality we'll all have to face wherever we are in the world: the worst PEV riders behave, in any country, the worse the enforcement laws will fall upon us. And as an ex advertiser I can state this with total certainty... it's civilian and media perception on our behavior that are going to push those laws forward. The better we behave the kinder will those laws be drawn. If we behave like the animals on the ally cat, we're going to get hit very hard, sledgehammer style, by the lawmakers of our own countries for a very long time, until PEVs are finally accepted, as they should, as the future of urban mobility. Until then it's up to us, the pioneers, to self discipline ourselves, so that we don't get hit really hard by the regulators in these early years.

I'm 200% sure that this is the dynamics we need to be aware of. 

Hi Paulo-

Yeah I understand the great differences in each country dealing with struggles legitimizing their EUCs. In America, we are very fortunate to have laws that support what we ride. As far as public impression, the EUC is still fairly niche. I mean law enforcement over eBikes is much stronger on than EUCs. @Marty Backediscusses this in podcast with Duff. Marty is a LA/Long Beach rider.  It was debated earlier in this thread where the topic of EUC groups police their crews/rides. That is definitely a fact in here in the LA/Orange County EUC rides. But going back to the niche part...it is a good thing that ebikes have reached a level of mainstream to where if there is an incident with an ebike no one if going after the device, but they go after the rider.. In America, that is norm. The only time that natural reaction to an ebike incident is when an ebike owner ran into a woman on the bike walk in Huntington Beach CA. The woman got serious injuries but ended up fine weeks later. Once healed she went to a city meeting to get ALL PEVs banned not just on the bike walk, but in all of Huntington Beach. The city caved; thus EVs were illegal for a moment in the city. I say a “moment” because a PEV advocacy group challenged the new order and got the city council members to focus on the reckless rider and not the ebike. Yes the advocacy group WON! PEVs are now legal to ride in Huntington Beach once again; at 10mph. 

The point of my examples is that every country will need PEV riders (not just EUCs) to form legitimate PEV advocacy groups/lobbyists to support our community. If your town does not have such a thing, then start one. No matter in or out of the states. 

I would also recommend that PEV owners in other countries rally and protest HEAVILY against rental PEVs. Literally drive those bastard companies out of your town. Keep them out!  In the UK PEV rental vendors got a super sweet deal with those cities to make riding privately owned PEVs illegal while keeping their rentals legal to ride. 4 rental Vendors are offering a subscription program for their PEVs in UK cities. Effectively what I just told you is a company has, through the use of draconian law, monopolized and taken over all the PEV spaces, these cities, in the UK. This is wrong. It’s like saying you can’t drink your home made coffee in public because Starbuck says so. If you want to hang outside with your coffee you have to buy from StarBucks. I feel bad for UK riders.

[RockyTop]

11 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I wonder if the difference in legislation between EU and US comes from whether non-mentioned vehicles are allowed or forbidden. In here any vehicle that isn’t mentioned in traffic laws is automatically forbidden. Is it the opposite in the US?

In most areas Yes. It is not illegal until it is proven to be a problem and a law is made against it. In many cases people believe something will become a problem yet never does. Also some things are not considered a problem to some groups or areas so........................ 

[Sumako]

20 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I wonder if the difference in legislation between EU and US comes from whether non-mentioned vehicles are allowed or forbidden. In here any vehicle that isn’t mentioned in traffic laws is automatically forbidden. Is it the opposite in the US?

Let’s go back to the niche factor. EUCs are niche and in many cases, completely ignored. I was working on a video on the subject that features @Marty Backe comments on the subject. I guess I will finish this take. But basically even Marty agrees with the fact that law enforcement in LA area in CA does not care because there is not a lot of us. Another rider told me that he breaks the 25mph speed limit all the time and cops let him go because (get this); “you’re on a riskier ride than most, we understand why you go fast. As long as you stay safe, we’ll leave you alone”. “Are we serious now?”; I asked. Makes sense. If I remember correctly (it would be nice if he jumped in here to clarify) Marty had a similar experience when stopped for riding on a Santa Monica Beach path, during a time when EVs were not allowed to be on that path. The cops just wanted the see his ride, and let him go. 

Now directly to your question @mrelwood ; in the US it has been my experience and the experience of many riders to use common sense. If you know that the electric vehicle can go up to (or even past) a specific speed then you follow the laws according to the power of your EV. For example Eskate has 4 wheels and can blast past 25mph, so the rule is don’t blast past 25mph and you’re legal. Personally I was surprised that NYC allowed 30mph! However that explains a lot  regarding the behavior of the riders there (for another conversation). What you’re dealing with in Finland really SUCKS!!!!!! I’m sorry that is what you have to fight with. There is obviously a huge gap between American culture and culture in other countries. Maybe being a “Capitalist” country helps in this regard. But honestly I have no idea as to why other countries can be so skittish about EV laws; especially since it is countries outside of the US who claim to be so “Pro-EV” for the environment.  

[Sumako]

19 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

In most areas Yes. It is not illegal until it is proven to be a problem and a law is made against it. In many cases people believe something will become a problem yet never does. Also some things are not considered a problem to some groups or areas so........................ 

Which is why we really need to step up in American cities and develop local advocacy groups to support us incase a “one-off” problem does happen in your local area. Find my Huntington Beach example if you can.

[.....]

34 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

In most areas Yes. It is not illegal until it is proven to be a problem and a law is made against it. In many cases people believe something will become a problem yet never does. Also some things are not considered a problem to some groups or areas so........................ 

On ShanesPlanet USA, unless its expressly forbidden and written to be clearly applicable to said action/activity, OF COURSE it's legal. We err on the side of freedom, lack of legislation, lack of enforecement first.... Other location within the same country are similar but not exactly the same. I'd imagine PEV law (when it becomes included), will be handled on a county or state basis. The Feds pick their battles around here.

[Sumako]

8 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

If we behave like the animals on the ally cat, we're going to get hit very hard, sledgehammer style, by the lawmakers of our own countries for a very long time, until PEVs are finally accepted, as they should, as the future of urban mobility. Until then it's up to us, the pioneers, to self discipline ourselves, so that we don't get hit really hard by the regulators in these early years.

Paulo - 

YES! Self discipline is the top solution. As I said before, our local EUC ride groups in LA/OC areas in CA have no tolerance for this either; “NO Armor & Helmet? No Ride!”

For me personally, I have zero tollerance for poor EV ride behavior, whether you own or rent. In fact I don’t want anyone new rider on a rental. Riding rentals is poor behavior enough for me. Bare in mind I’m talking in the US.  If you’re a new rider riding with me, you better have your head gear and armor. If you’re a pro, that’s different. We have a guy here who rides with a RC car. Been doing it for years. Hes damn good at it. So i’ll leave that rider alone. A newbie trying that shit around me; “stay the fuck away from me!” 

At the same time if you’re a top end experienced pro-rider, I’m not going to criticize until you fucks up. You hit someone with your shit; give me your “PRO” membership card...we have a problem.  

As someone pointed out, I am very much into strength; of character, of ability, of talent, of spirit, of constitution, of consistency, of authenticity.   This is what is needed in order to trust a rider and their ability to stay safe while doing whatever crazy “looking” shit they do.

To me, ride behavior becomes reckless when you do shit you have no experience performing without negatively impacting someone else in a group or public setting.  

At these same time, I completely disagree with the notion that a video of subjectively questionable behavior will ban, derail, or hurt our EUC community. Y’all see that video where a rider fucked with a driver  and then when the driver parked the rider tried to beat the shit out of said driver? We got nearly 30 pages over a well run race but ZERO FUCKS were given about that other video. It’s public, everyone has seen it, but nobody cared. Maybe if I dived deep enough I’ll find a thread on that video here? One page I guess? Maybe? 

Those of you in other countries are dealing with something else. The UK looks to me like they are dealing with corruption between government and 4 corporations.  But I am absolutely sure that a month old EUC video has no impact on your PEV laws. 

So that’s my complete official statement on the question regarding my stance on poor/unsafe ride behavior. 

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I wonder if the difference in legislation between EU and US comes from whether non-mentioned vehicles are allowed or forbidden. In here any vehicle that isn’t mentioned in traffic laws is automatically forbidden. Is it the opposite in the US?

In  Europe they let these EUC's be sold and they let us pay VAT taxes on them. Then they consider them illegal... Such honest governments we have....

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

Paulo - 

YES! Self discipline is the top solution. As I said before, our local EUC ride groups in LA/OC areas in CA have no tolerance for this either; “NO Armor & Helmet? No Ride!”

For me personally, I have zero tollerance for poor EV ride behavior, whether you own or rent. In fact I don’t want anyone new rider on a rental. Riding rentals is poor behavior enough for me. Bare in mind I’m talking in the US.  If you’re a new rider riding with me, you better have your head gear and armor. If you’re a pro, that’s different. We have a guy here who rides with a RC car. Been doing it for years. Hes damn good at it. So i’ll leave that rider alone. A newbie trying that shit around me; “stay the fuck away from me!” 

At the same time if you’re a top end experienced pro-rider, I’m not going to criticize until you fucks up. You hit someone with your shit; give me your “PRO” membership card...we have a problem.  

As someone pointed out, I am very much into strength; of character, of ability, of talent, of spirit, of constitution, of consistency, of authenticity.   This is what is needed in order to trust a rider and their ability to stay safe while doing whatever crazy “looking” shit they do.

To me, ride behavior becomes reckless when you do shit you have no experience performing without negatively impacting someone else in a group or public setting.  

At these same time, I completely disagree with the notion that a video of subjectively questionable behavior will ban, derail, or hurt our EUC community. Y’all see that video where a rider fucked with a driver  and then when the driver parked the rider tried to beat the shit out of said driver? We got nearly 30 pages over a well run race but ZERO FUCKS were given about that other video. It’s public, everyone has seen it, but nobody cared. Maybe if I dived deep enough I’ll find a thread on that video here? One page I guess? Maybe? 

Those of you in other countries are dealing with something else. The UK looks to me like they are dealing with corruption between government and 4 corporations.  But I am absolutely sure that a month old EUC video has no impact on your PEV laws. 

So that’s my complete official statement on the question regarding my stance on poor/unsafe ride behavior. 

 

I agree with almost everything you said here except one thing: In fact, one video won't make a difference in the public eye. But if we have too many of these videos and news of accidents with pedestrians, and even deaths... I'm sure the sh*t is going to hit the fan...for us!!!

[Paulo Mesquita]

2 hours ago, Sumako said:

Hi Paulo-

Yeah I understand the great differences in each country dealing with struggles legitimizing their EUCs. In America, we are very fortunate to have laws that support what we ride. As far as public impression, the EUC is still fairly niche. I mean law enforcement over eBikes is much stronger on than EUCs. @Marty Backediscusses this in podcast with Duff. Marty is a LA/Long Beach rider.  It was debated earlier in this thread where the topic of EUC groups police their crews/rides. That is definitely a fact in here in the LA/Orange County EUC rides. But going back to the niche part...it is a good thing that ebikes have reached a level of mainstream to where if there is an incident with an ebike no one if going after the device, but they go after the rider.. In America, that is norm. The only time that natural reaction to an ebike incident is when an ebike owner ran into a woman on the bike walk in Huntington Beach CA. The woman got serious injuries but ended up fine weeks later. Once healed she went to a city meeting to get ALL PEVs banned not just on the bike walk, but in all of Huntington Beach. The city caved; thus EVs were illegal for a moment in the city. I say a “moment” because a PEV advocacy group challenged the new order and got the city council members to focus on the reckless rider and not the ebike. Yes the advocacy group WON! PEVs are now legal to ride in Huntington Beach once again; at 10mph. 

The point of my examples is that every country will need PEV riders (not just EUCs) to form legitimate PEV advocacy groups/lobbyists to support our community. If your town does not have such a thing, then start one. No matter in or out of the states. 

I would also recommend that PEV owners in other countries rally and protest HEAVILY against rental PEVs. Literally drive those bastard companies out of your town. Keep them out!  In the UK PEV rental vendors got a super sweet deal with those cities to make riding privately owned PEVs illegal while keeping their rentals legal to ride. 4 rental Vendors are offering a subscription program for their PEVs in UK cities. Effectively what I just told you is a company has, through the use of draconian law, monopolized and taken over all the PEV spaces, these cities, in the UK. This is wrong. It’s like saying you can’t drink your home made coffee in public because Starbuck says so. If you want to hang outside with your coffee you have to buy from StarBucks. I feel bad for UK riders.

Yep, the PEV rentals are the cancer of our hobby/sport. No doubts there. The problem is that in Portugal with the new laws  that came out because of the rentals, all PEV's are supposed to be only up to 0.2Kw and can't go over 25km/hour (motor blocking). Which means only a kid weighing about 15kg and with a toy PEV can ride in my country without being considered illegal. My luck (and my friends) so far is that our EUC niche is even smaller than in most countries. So I still get policemen waving "hi" to me and smiling.... for now... because everyone thinks its funny and original to see a crazy older guy on a single wheel. But once the cops get informed on the power and speed limitations....