Incredibly bad look for this community.

[winterwheel]

Police in my community already distinguish between scooters and EUC. Scooters are regulated not to ride on sidewalks but they all do, only an insane person would ride those in the street. Police have occasional enforcement days where they target this behaviour. We ride around on those enforcement days without having any issues whatsoever.

[Paulo Mesquita]

6 hours ago, winterwheel said:

A lady associated with our group, not drunk or under influences of any kind, came off a scooter and broke both wrists and had multiple related injuries. Speed: 15kmh.

Before I ever dreamt of EUCs and e-scooters would exist I used to Rollerblade. I saw a 10 year old girl fall and break both bones on her forearm (radius and ulna) and her arm wrist and hand  just bent down 90º (off topic?) because she wasn't wearing wrist guards. Nowadays, with alm the crazies renting e-scooters, I can't unassigned how many ends their joyride in the ER. 

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

14 hours ago, UniVehje said:

 

All it really takes is one bad news and the politicians jump in to "solve" it. 

Since I've started euc riding and since I've been reading this thread... This has been my biggest fear. 

A small story about a law "solved" by politicians here in Portugal that illustrates clearly what might happen to euc/e-scooters with new laws. 

STORY: Many years ago (about 25) some politicians and general public were annoyed by the fact that many jeeps (done big and expensive) were being sold in my country. So, to slow down the sale they decided that due to their hight, any jeeps, including the small ones, like the Suzuki ones or the Cherokee, woukd post double toll on all the highways. 

The result: many times, when at a highway toll with my 20k€ small jeep, I was paying twice as much as the 150k€ Ferrari, Bugatti or McLaren on the lane next to mine. 

This law is still active today. Great clarity and justice. 

Something like this might happen with future laws related to EUCs... because of the rental e-scooters 

[Lex Smith]

14 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

FInders keepers, losers weepers! It aint like its hard to locate and remove tracking devices on the stupid things...   Thread derail for sure, and its about damn time.

Mmmmmmm . . . I wonder whether they're using 18650 batteries . . . could almost view them as a naturally occurring resource of replacement battery packs :-)  And in fact removing them from dangerous and obstructive places could be seen as a public service?

[Lex Smith]

10 hours ago, winterwheel said:

A lady associated with our group, not drunk or under influences of any kind, came off a scooter and broke both wrists and had multiple related injuries. Speed: 15kmh.

I some times wonder whether the low speed of the rental scooters lulls people into a false sense of security.  In Auckland CBD the rental e-scooters are limited to 15 kmh (in the suburbs that goes up to 25 kmh).  A woman where I used to work who is nearing middle age, doesn't look like she's seen the inside of a gym ever and definitely doesn't understand the concept of moderate eating (I've seen her in action at work functions) thought it was a great idea to hop on a rental scooter with no previous experience and no safety gear.  She got about 30 metres down the foot path before coming off, busting up her arm and spending about 3 months off work.  Now's she's a staunch 'anti-anything that might look like it could be fun but require a minimum of physical prowess to operate safely' activist.  I think her logic is if she doesn't have the physical capability to partake nor the commonsense to wear appropriate gear then no one should partake.

These are the idiots that I fear more than the hooligans that actually have some skills but no manners (but I'm not a fan of either).

Edited July 2, 2021 by Lex Smith

[Paul A]

Some scooters may have very small wheels, non pneumatic wheels or tyres, very low clearance, require both hands on handle bars for steering, the inline feet stance of front/back, very short wheel base, poor design or construction, etc. 

These may be the more likely and dominating causes of crashes and injuries.

Contributing factors of lesser experience, lower level of skill, unfamiliarity of the hire/rental casual user.

 

Perhaps the introduction of registration of EUC, scooter, PEV etc owners may be a necessity to deter dangerous, illegal, irresponsible behaviour.

Mandatory clearly visible illuminated licence plates on every PEV for identification and traceability.

Rental PEV hirers will have their details, times of hire, all recorded on the mobile phone apps.

All PEV vehicles, the owners, the riders, the operators will be identifiable, traceable and accountable.

The hit and run perpetrator of the death of Lisa Banes would not have escaped detection so easily with so many witnesses, traffic and security surveillance video cameras along streets before and after, store fronts, railway stations etc.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

I'm not understanding the call for registration at all.  My brother got knocked down as a kid by an bicyclist & ended up in the hospital after hitting his head.  He could have died.  I think he was 9.  There weren't calls for bans, legislation, insurance, etc.  I really don't think we should encourage this.  

[mike_bike_kite]

Bicycles have grandfather rights on the roads and we don't so we can be legislated against. I think registration would be difficult - where would you put a number plate? And metal attached to a spinning wheel could be dangerous. I guess they could have a coloured sticker with just 4 letters - that would give you a couple of million permutations or you could use the colour to show that the wheel has a current insurance. Could you then use it on all your wheels?

At the end of the day, they're not bicycles as they're entirely motor driven. I know you Americans see it as a terrible infringement to even discuss insurance but what would you do if you did injure a pedestrian and they needed serious medical attention? Would you have the spare cash to pay or would you run away? In my country (UK) we're going to eventually need insurance. I suspect the same is true across Europe. I'm happy paying it if it means I can ride without fear of being stopped.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, /Dev/Null said:

I'm not understanding the call for registration at all.  My brother got knocked down as a kid by an bicyclist & ended up in the hospital after hitting his head.  He could have died.  I think he was 9.  There weren't calls for bans, legislation, insurance, etc.  I really don't think we should encourage this.  

When I was a kid, my dad collapsed the rear seats of our car so we could sleep horizontally on the highway  when going to a long skiing trip.

 Times they are a changin’.

[Planemo]

26 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

When I was a kid, my dad collapsed the rear seats of our car so we could sleep horizontally on the highway  when going to a long skiing trip.

 Times they are a changin’.

Lol that reminded me of similar - me and my bro in the back of my Dads Vauxhall Victor estate, horizontal, one on the back seat, one in the boot. I remember that seatbelts were fitted in the car but none of us ever used them and it wasnt law to do so then. Dad often made a roll-up whilst driving, using his knee on the steering wheel. Usually half pissed too. Its amazing we are still here to tell the tale..

[Scottie]

17 hours ago, Lex Smith said:

Now's she's a staunch 'anti-anything that might look like it could be fun but require a minimum of physical prowess to operate safely' activist. I think her logic is if she doesn't have the physical capability to partake nor the commonsense to wear appropriate gear then no one should partake.

These are the idiots that I fear more than the hooligans that actually have some skills but no manners (but I'm not a fan of either).

Yes, that woman has a questionable perspective. Her whole life philosophy probably flows that way.

When I was out on a ride recently, a woman sitting in the driver's seat of her 4000 lb weapon on wheels asked me, "Is that dangerous?". I took her question as somewhat innocent with just a twinge of judgement. I offered her a proper perspective about it with my reply, "It depends on who is riding it".  I hope I gave her something to think about.

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Scottie

[Paulo Mesquita]

11 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

I'm not understanding the call for registration at all.  My brother got knocked down as a kid by an bicyclist & ended up in the hospital after hitting his head.  He could have died.  I think he was 9.  There weren't calls for bans, legislation, insurance, etc.  I really don't think we should encourage this.  

Im riding a motorized vehicle and if I hurt someone, I want and need legal protection and coverage. That's how we can protect ourselves here in Portugal. I don't have money to pay for lawsuits.... 

[Paulo Mesquita]

9 hours ago, Planemo said:

Lol that reminded me of similar - me and my bro in the back of my Dads Vauxhall Victor estate, horizontal, one on the back seat, one in the boot. I remember that seatbelts were fitted in the car but none of us ever used them and it wasnt law to do so then. Dad often made a roll-up whilst driving, using his knee on the steering wheel. Usually half pissed too. Its amazing we are still here to tell the tale..

Hah! Just one person not using a seat belt, here in Portugal the fine is 350€!! Talking on the cell while driving, 150€. And in both cases we lose points on our driver licence... 

[mike_bike_kite]

3 decades ago I was planning on hiring a small motorbike and touring round Portugal. I'd just arrived and was sipping a coffee at the side of a blind junction not far from the sea. I was amazed to see drivers racing through the junction without slowing down. I saw 2 accidents before my coffee grew cold and I figured that maybe a train was safer. I had a lovey time exploring the country but even one of the trains I was on managed to end up in a low speed crash with another train! Saying that, nothing compared to the driving in Egypt, you felt like you were rolling dice every time you got on a bus, a taxi or crossed the road.  

[null]

24 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'd just arrived and was sipping a coffee at the side of a blind junction not far from the sea. I was amazed to see drivers racing through the junction without slowing down

That’s how they like it, there isn’t a blind corner Latin Europeans won’t race. The cutting edge in safety is when cyclists race the blind corner while ringing their bell like crazy, because it’s obviously the other part that should do the effort of avoiding them. Brilliant thinking. /a northerner in the south.

Edited July 3, 2021 by null

[Camenbert]

30 minutes ago, null said:

That’s how they like it, there isn’t a blind corner Latin Europeans won’t race. The cutting edge in safety is when cyclists race the blind corner while ringing their bell like crazy, because it’s obviously the other part that should do the effort of avoiding them. Brilliant thinking. /a northerner in the south.

You see, at the end that NYC video will look "normal". Indeed NYC is a bit further south than Porto

Edited July 3, 2021 by Camenbert

[null]

58 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

You see, at the end that NYC video will look "normal". Indeed NYC is a bit further south than Porto

Nah, I dislike people who play with others lives as much here as there. If anything it is from being constantly put in danger for no good reason I’m pissed at those people. No matter what they ride and where.

Edited July 3, 2021 by null

[Paulo Mesquita]

3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

3 decades ago I was planning on hiring a small motorbike and touring round Portugal. I'd just arrived and was sipping a coffee at the side of a blind junction not far from the sea. I was amazed to see drivers racing through the junction without slowing down. I saw 2 accidents before my coffee grew cold and I figured that maybe a train was safer. I had a lovey time exploring the country but even one of the trains I was on managed to end up in a low speed crash with another train! Saying that, nothing compared to the driving in Egypt, you felt like you were rolling dice every time you got on a bus, a taxi or crossed the road.  

Mate, you were here at the bad driving times... Or you were jinxed 😂😂😂😂😂. It's a whole lot safer now... 

[mike_bike_kite]

2 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

Mate, you were here at the bad driving times... Or you were jinxed 😂😂😂😂😂. It's a whole lot safer now... 

I was actually quite impressed by the machismo of it all, drivers would just beep the horn as they approached blind junctions but never slow down. If you heard 2 different beeps then it was always followed by a crunch. Even on the train crash I heard the train's horn going (was the driver honestly expecting the other train to get out the way?). I think there were actually quite a lot of deaths in the crash but my carriage was just thrown off the rails. Apart from the driving, I thought Portugal was a beautiful place and I'd always fancied a small apartment in a small town on the rugged Atlantic coast.

[Paulo Mesquita]

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I was actually quite impressed by the machismo of it all, drivers would just beep the horn as they approached blind junctions but never slow down. If you heard 2 different beeps then it was always followed by a crunch. Even on the train crash I heard the train's horn going (was the driver honestly expecting the other train to get out the way?). I think there were actually quite a lot of deaths in the crash but my carriage was just thrown off the rails. Apart from the driving, I thought Portugal was a beautiful place and I'd always fancied a small apartment in a small town on the rugged Atlantic coast.

Well, (off topic) when you decide to get an apartment here ( everyone's coming to Portugal now) don't forget I'm a Remax realtor. I can always use the commission to buy another EUC 😂😂😂😂

[PLEASE_DELETE]

On 7/2/2021 at 7:46 PM, Paulo Mesquita said:

Im riding a motorized vehicle and if I hurt someone, I want and need legal protection and coverage. That's how we can protect ourselves here in Portugal. I don't have money to pay for lawsuits.... 

I have a liability umbrella that AFAIK covers miscellaneous stuff.  I pay extra for it.  I'm not sure if such a thing exists where you are but if so it may be worth looking into.  I'm covered up to US $2M.  Yes it costs extra.  I think I've had it since I've been an adult able to ride a bicycle.....here you can't buy bicycle insurance.

Edited July 4, 2021 by /Dev/Null

[Paulo Mesquita]

8 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

I have a liability umbrella that AFAIK covers miscellaneous stuff.  I pay extra for it.  I'm not sure if such a thing exists where you are but if so it may be worth looking into.  I'm covered up to US $2M.  Yes it costs extra.  I think I've had it since I've been an adult able to ride a bicycle.....here you can't buy bicycle insurance.

Unfirtunaty there's nothing here that covers our more powerful PEVs. There are a couple of insurances but they only cover PEVs that don't go over 25km/hour and that have a power um to 0.2Kw... which is ridiculous.... 

[Camenbert]

On 7/3/2021 at 12:27 PM, null said:

I dislike people who play with others lives as much here as there

Who will disagree with this ? My irony was after your stereotype:

On 7/3/2021 at 11:29 AM, null said:

That’s how they like it, there isn’t a blind corner Latin Europeans won’t race

This is not not politically correct. This is a generalization I don't accept, such generalization thinking seed to racism and other shit like this.

And it's just not true. I have been living in Barcelona and common rules are much more respected there than in Paris. Idem in Pays Basque.
May you think there are also "Latin Europeans" on this forum that would refuse to be seen as you describe?!

[null]

6 hours ago, Camenbert said:

This is a generalization I don't accept

Cry me a river 🙄

You’ve spent the thread defending reckless endangerment of others, advocating law breaking and physical violence (French motorcyclists), accusing those who disagree of moralizing and now you are all offended because I mention a cultural trait? I have a hard time taking you seriously to say the least, and won’t waste my time any further.

Edited July 4, 2021 by null

[Paulo Mesquita]

6 hours ago, Camenbert said:

Who will disagree with this ? My irony was after your stereotype:

This is not not politically correct. This is a generalization I don't accept, such generalization thinking seed to racism and other shit like this.

And it's just not true. I have been living in Barcelona and common rules are much more respected there than in Paris. Idem in Pays Basque.
May you think there are also "Latin Europeans" on this forum that would refuse to be seen as you describe?!

No worries, I'm a pure blood Latin Portuguese, and honestly, up to about 20 years ago we were the second deadliest country in the world when it came to road accidents. Only Equador beat us and the y had those horrible roads in steep mountains that caused many cars and busses to fall down hundreds of meters. 

This was a local joke amongst NATO American staff doing commissions in Oeiras/Lisbon: they had a t-shirt saying "I survived Marginal". The marginal seafront road between Lisbon and Cascais was the deadliest road in Europe 30 years ago. Now it's one of the safest. I for one, wouldn't have any problem now in riding my EUC on the marginal road. But that's now 😁😁😁😁