Stan Onymous Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nils said: I'm not sure whether you object to Inmotion's suggested fix, or whether you think I got that wrong, or something else in my post? I think the InMotion fix of a silicone barrier is laughable. I dont strike the messengers. But I do give my own experience with the silicone and high voltage amperage applications. I was skeptical like you about silicone, but it really is best to heed the warnings and buy only specialty dielectric silicone. Even then you need to read the temp and Volt ratings carefully if used at all for this application. Edited August 16, 2018 by Stan Onymous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagsy Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 18 minutes ago, UniVehje said: I really hope they do the right thing and just recall and start over with a new batch of wheels. Jason hinted that they have done a lot of impovements on them. The first batch was 200 wheels and it would probably cost around 100 000 - 150 000 € to recall and replace them all. A lot of money but might be worth it in a long run. If I didn’t read this forum I would still be extremely happy with my V10F. I have no issues with it. And I really like many aspects of it. Lately I have been using it for work and I appreciate the comfort and how easy it is to change settings for different shoes and riding styles. InMotion has done so many things right that I really hope they get past this. I’m sure they have a great future with many great wheels. But now there is this fire issue looming over them. That is so serious that it cannot be ignored. I thought it was a bummer that I bought an expensive wheel and then have to finish the assembly process myself. I was relatively ok with that as I took the risk preordering on the first batch. But now I’m not sure what else is worse than the later batches. They must be open and share everything. Maybe the fire was completely unrelated but until that is confirmed the only logical thing is to worry about our wheels. I will open my V10F this weekend and see if there are any sings of water and what the battery sealing looks like. Me too.. I would be extremely happy if I didn’t read about all those issues. The french forum is much more quiet regarding those issues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, kjon12 said: Seems to me there are some details lacking here with respect to the batteries, water, and the failure mechanism. I fly a lot of RC airplanes, helicopters, and drones, all of which use a style of lithium batteries (Lithiun Polymer, or LiPos for short.) When these batteries get damaged from extreme discharge, or physical damage from crashes resulting in severe mechanical impact with the ground, the batteries can fail internally, which results in thermal runaway due to extremely large current flows between the internal sections of the cells. The batteries swell up and get hot. The fail-safe method of disposing of these batteries is to soak them in water mixed with salt. This causes the batteries to discharge below their minimum working voltage of about 3.2 volts, which causes them to cease functioning. So water is not the failure mechanism causing a fire, per se. Water is what they recommend you use to prevent the fire! That, plus suffocating the battery in sand so there is no oxygen to contribute to a blaze. What could happen, though, is that the flat metal wire that is used to connect the top and bottom of the cells together to make the parallel and series connections can corrode to the the point of a) shorting one battery lead to the next (this would require a long bridge of corrosion to cover the space between contacts on adjacent batteries), or b) creating a very resistive contact from the battery's + or - tip electrode to the connection contact, causing it to heat up due to high current flow through a resistive contact. (This would imply that the solder had broken down between the flat wire and the battery electrode.) It's hard to say how long, time wise, it would take for these corrosive effects to occur to the point of failure. And even then, would it really cause a fire, or just cause the battery to slowly discharge to the point it no longer can function as a battery? So that raises the question...what's causing the fire? If the batteries aren't mechanically damaged, i.e. pierced by a sharp metal object, or crunched due to high impact with an immovable object, it's kind of puzzling. I would think that the main effect of getting water into the battery assembly would be a dead battery, not a fire. It might be more important to worry about the charging system: https://www.cnet.com/news/why-are-hoverboards-exploding-and-catching-fire/ Fires in phones usually are associated with charging the cells: Fires usually occur because there is a very high discharge of energy in a short period of time, like a short circuit of wires that are too small to carry the amperage, or as in the video above, from faulty charging circuits. It would be interesting to know how the power switch on the top of the V10F is involved with the failure mechanism, and the battery charge level indicator. The videos that show the battery level indicator acting strangely on the V10F indicate something funky is happening in the circuitry of the wheel. Could be wrong on some parts, and correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what I know: - The wheels use metal-encased cylindrical 18650 lithium-ion cells, not LiPos (LiPo's are not really lithium polymer through, just "pouch cells", the chemistry is similar to formulations used in 18650's, just the "packaging" differs), pretty sure on this. They don't "swell", if the internal pressure is high enough, either the safety vent will trigger (at which point the cell may shoot out flames), or if the vent fails, which happens, or doesn't open fast enough if the pressure build up is fast, it will explode (again possibly with flames). - Extreme discharge will cause dendrites (lithium metal deposits) forming in the cells, which can short the anode and cathode, in most cases this will just ruin the cell through internal short circuit that will drain it to 0V, in the worst case it can overheat and go into thermal runaway. Rule of thumb suggested by Battery university was something like "cells that have gone under 2V (or maybe it was 1.5V) for over a week should not be attempted to recharge ever" - Suffocating the fire is not enough, once the cell goes into thermal runaway the point is to cool it until it's all the way through cold enough (which is something like 100C / 200F, could have been a bit more, maybe 125C) to stop the runaway. Just suffocating won't be enough, the cell will reignite and the reaction goes on. Likely dunking the battery in water or sand can suck out enough heat from the pack to stop this (or at least keep enough oxygen away preventing it from going up in flames? I recall some source saying that the chemical reactions within the cell can release enough oxygen for it to keep going on its own though...) - There's no "minimum working voltage" as such (well, maybe for actually using the cells), you can still get a fire / explosion out from a cell that's way lower than 3V, if it's for example short-circuited As for what's causing the fire, I don't know. Something (a short circuit?) must heat up the cells beyond thermal runaway temperatures for them to catch fire. Another usual case is recharging faulty pack/cells. 2 hours ago, Stan Onymous said: Silicon is a semiconductor, and you can read that Silicone is both conductive in the rubber form or insulative and Not conductive. So if you trust a Chinese company has the qc for screening out metals like carbon and other metals, you would be wise to hold off on the Silicone repair. I think you're mixing silicone (a synthetic material) and silicon (an element used in semiconductors and such)? Edited August 16, 2018 by esaj 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 21 minutes ago, Pagsy said: Me too.. I would be extremely happy if I didn’t read about all those issues. The french forum is much more quiet regarding those issues hence the quote “ignorance is bliss”. i have no idea what the problem is but i’m not overly concerned that my v10f will burst into flames, but i know i’m ignorant. not because i’m so anal about keeping my wheels scratch free but because i knew i’d be dropping them especially with Bob learning to go with me, i bundled up my euc’s. common sense tells me, if i drop one of my makita cordless drills on the concrete too many times, it might stop working. hasn’t happened yet but knocking some electrical component inside loose could definitely happen. as scared as the forum tries to make everyone about the unreliable nature of euc’s , (not necessarily saying that’s a bad thing although i would love to know how many actual mechanical cutoffs caused by these more modern wheels) if i crashed one of mine hard, i’d almost be afaid to ride it again. why i did this with mine while learning. so i know my wheels haven’t been abused during the learning process. sure it’s funny looking, but it was easy and temporary. and man did it work good, for me and the wheel. it never got away from me, but it would have been safer for Bob too. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasenutty Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, novazeus said: common sense tells me, if i drop one of my makita cordless drills on the concrete too many times, it might stop working. hasn’t happened yet but knocking some electrical component inside loose could definitely happen. You wrap your drills up like that too? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Farrenkopf Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I’ve got over 700 km on my V10F and haven’t dropped it yet. My first wheel - NB1 C+ is a different story! First day on that learning had the battery fly out of it. Not sure why the double sided foam tape wasn’t peeled to stock it in the wheel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, novazeus said: as scared as the forum tries to make everyone about the unreliable nature of euc’s , (not necessarily saying that’s a bad thing although i would love to know how many actual mechanical cutoffs caused by these more modern wheels) if i crashed one of mine hard, i’d almost be afaid to ride it again. The point is not to cause panic, but there are a lot of riders out there who have no idea how dangerous especially the batteries can be. Case in point, the burned V10. I recall also at least one Gotway going up in flames before (after a crash), a number of generics (crashes and recharging) and a Solowheel (might have been riding?). Edited August 16, 2018 by esaj 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, kasenutty said: You wrap your drills up like that too? no, i don’t risk my life using them. although for stupid homeowners, it might not be a bad idea because they might drill into electric wires. i do think if euc’s came built with an exterior of some durable skinned closed cell foam and an eye on removing sharp edges(like every manufacturer of everything should do but none do) it would go a long way towards legalization. i’d bet money, if somebody was showing like a 16s to his local bureaucrats, my mr marshmello 16s would come closer to being legalized as opposed to a stock 16s. my first impression seeing the first wheel i received was how much mass and how hard in such a small package and how much injury it could cause to another living being. knowing what i know now, if i were in denver and i saw chooch bearing down on me, i’d look for cover. i would not want to get hit by any runaway wheel, and if it hasn’t happened, from the zillion videos i’ve seen, it will. i don’t care how expert wheel rider u think u are, shit happens. Edited August 16, 2018 by novazeus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasenutty Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, novazeus said: no, i don’t risk my life using them. although for stupid homeowners, it might not be a bad idea because they might drill into electric wires. Oh! I get it, so you pad the wheels to protect yourself from getting injured by the wheel, not for scratches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 5 hours ago, UniVehje said: Maybe snip out from here on the first post with the fire issue. Pretty much nothing else has been discussed since. I'll have to locate that post once I can see straight again... 5 hours ago, UniVehje said: Are you (or others) aware of any previous cases of EUCs burning? See my above post, likely there are others I've forgotten or not mentioned in the forums. Some early generics did have same problems as the hoverboards (bad chargers, bad BMSs allowing overcharge). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jeffrey Scott Will Posted August 16, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) As I mentioned before, we have been in direct contact with all of our customers regarding the weather-sealing issue, but I have an update just so everyone knows what's going on at the moment. We aren't interested in burying any stories - our only concern is fixing the problem for our customers: V10 / V10F Weatherproofing Update We have some updates for you in regards to addressing the weatherproofing vulnerability of V10 and V10F that we have been sharing with our customers. A couple days ago we shared that we had a fix prepared that would allow for customers to choose application of a silicone weather-sealing fix by either a DIY kit or by sending in their wheel to us in San Diego for an in-house fix. Both options are at no charge to the customer. New Battery Case In the following days, InMotion USA and eWheels have been working together to make sure we have the most robust solution possible for all of our customers. What we've decided to do is offer an additional level of protection around the battery pack itself in the form of poly-carbonate casing. This will be offered at the same time of the in-house fix or DIY kit. This is also, of course, free of charge. As you might imagine, this battery case does add some deeper disassembly for those of you choose DIY. So keep an eye out for emails from us / eWheels sharing more detailed instructions about the DIY process next week. You'll still have a chance to make up your mind which route you'd like to go once we share the instructions. We will receive the parts early next week, and DIY Kits will be shipped out right away. Repairs done in San Diego will begin right away as soon as we have the parts, so we will begin reaching out to customers next week with pre-paid shipping labels for those who choose to send in their wheel for repair. To cut down on repair turn-around time for you, we will send out shipping labels in stages: earliest V10 customers are in the front of the line. International Customers We know there has been some confusion for V10 customers outside the US. InMotion USA is open to answer any questions as best we can, but in regards to obtaining a weather-proofing fix, you'll need to reach out to your seller. If you have any questions, please reach out to us directly so we can help you as quickly as possible. As always, thank you for your understanding, and please know we are working hard to resolve this for all of you ASAP. Edited August 16, 2018 by Jeffrey Scott Will more details on ETA 5 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagsy Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Jeffrey Scott Will said: International Customers We know there has been some confusion for V10 customers outside the US. InMotion USA is open to answer any questions as best we can, but in regards to obtaining a weather-proofing fix, you'll need to reach out to your seller. If you have any questions, please reach out to us directly so we can help you as quickly as possible. As always, thank you for your understanding, and please know we are working hard to resolve this for all of you ASAP. Why do people have to reach out to their seller? Maybe I misunderstood but What about those who don’t go to any forum discussions? I don’t have any issue but I never got any official email from anyone. I heard about issues only through the forum. But what if i don’t have internet ? Plenty of riders don’t come on the forum.... And they still don’t know if they didn’t buy from INMOTION USA. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, kasenutty said: Oh! I get it, so you pad the wheels to protect yourself from getting injured by the wheel, not for scratches. yes, and if u re-read my post, ala makita drill analogy, drop electronic shit enough and eventually it will stop working. like why there is a big ass industry selling smartphone cases. now add in that ur last crash with ur wheel might have fucked with ur batteries u now have to worry about the wheel catching on fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Scott Will Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Pagsy said: Why do people have to reach out to their seller? Maybe I misunderstood but What about those who don’t go to any forum discussions? I don’t have any issue but I never got any official email from anyone. I heard about issues only through the forum. But what if i don’t have internet ? Plenty of riders don’t come on the forum.... And they still don’t know if they didn’t buy from INMOTION USA. Who did you buy from? InMotion USA doesn't have sales records of other distributors. eWheels is reaching out to their customers as well, but they also would not have access to other distributors customer information and sales records. InMotion China shares updates about all of these issues with their sellers, so they should be informing their customers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniVehje Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, Jeffrey Scott Will said: New Battery Case In the following days, InMotion USA and eWheels have been working together to make sure we have the most robust solution possible for all of our customers. What we've decided to do is offer an additional level of protection around the battery pack itself in the form of poly-carbonate casing. This will be offered at the same time of the in-house fix or DIY kit. This is also, of course, free of charge. Thank you for the information. This new battery case is good development. But what should I do if I find that there has been water inside when I open my wheel? If I have to change my tire in the future and open the case, should I re-apply the sealant every time? Any info about the fire? Did you know that imscv.com and inmotionworld.com have been down for a while now? These might be the channels some people will try to reach Inmotion at. I know you are responsible only for Inmotion USA but also the only ones people can actually reach besides the sellers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eufp Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, UniVehje said: Did you know that imscv.com and inmotionworld.com have been down for a while now? https://www.imscv.com/ works nowhttps://www.inmotionworld.com/ works now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Farrenkopf Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 24 minutes ago, Jeffrey Scott Will said: New Battery Case In the following days, InMotion USA and eWheels have been working together to make sure we have the most robust solution possible for all of our customers. What we've decided to do is offer an additional level of protection around the battery pack itself in the form of poly-carbonate casing. This will be offered at the same time of the in-house fix or DIY kit. This is also, of course, free of charge. As you might imagine, this battery case does add some deeper disassembly for those of you choose DIY. So keep an eye out for emails from us / eWheels sharing more details about the DIY process next week. You'll still have a chance to make up your mind which route you'd like to go once we share the instructions. Kits will be shipped once we have them and customers confirm they want to do the full repair themselves. I was going to wrap it with 2” wide electrical tape an rtv silicone where the wires come out. Is there room for a battery case or is that already being done with the newer batches? If not done already then that could take some time to produce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 31 minutes ago, Jeffrey Scott Will said: As I mentioned before, we have been in direct contact with all of our customers regarding the weather-sealing issue, but I have an update just so everyone knows what's going on at the moment. We aren't interested in burying any stories - our only concern is fixing the problem for our customers: V10 / V10F Weatherproofing Update We have some updates for you in regards to addressing the weatherproofing vulnerability of V10 and V10F that we have been sharing with our customers. A couple days ago we shared that we had a fix prepared that would allow for customers to choose application of a silicone weather-sealing fix by either a DIY kit or by sending in their wheel to us in San Diego for an in-house fix. Both options are at no charge to the customer. New Battery Case In the following days, InMotion USA and eWheels have been working together to make sure we have the most robust solution possible for all of our customers. What we've decided to do is offer an additional level of protection around the battery pack itself in the form of poly-carbonate casing. This will be offered at the same time of the in-house fix or DIY kit. This is also, of course, free of charge. As you might imagine, this battery case does add some deeper disassembly for those of you choose DIY. So keep an eye out for emails from us / eWheels sharing more detailed instructions about the DIY process next week. You'll still have a chance to make up your mind which route you'd like to go once we share the instructions. We will receive the parts early next week, and DIY Kits will be shipped out right away. Repairs done in San Diego will begin right away as soon as we have the parts, so we will begin reaching out to customers next week with pre-paid shipping labels for those who choose to send in their wheel for repair. To cut down on repair turn-around time for you, we will send out shipping labels in stages: earliest V10 customers are in the front of the line. International Customers We know there has been some confusion for V10 customers outside the US. InMotion USA is open to answer any questions as best we can, but in regards to obtaining a weather-proofing fix, you'll need to reach out to your seller. If you have any questions, please reach out to us directly so we can help you as quickly as possible. As always, thank you for your understanding, and please know we are working hard to resolve this for all of you ASAP. Spare me the headache (which will set in tomorrow anyway after I sober up), and please formulate a "letter" depicting the original issue (like what is is, what causes it etc), and the fixing options already mentioned here, so I can pin it on top of the InMotion-subforum. Pretty please? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post US69 Posted August 16, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, esaj said: The point is not to cause panic, but there are a lot of riders out there who have no idea how dangerous especially the batteries can be. Case in point, the burned V10. I recall also at least one Gotway going up in flames before (after a crash), a number of generics (crashes and recharging) and a Solowheel (might have been riding?). I recall a “going up in flames” from nearly every brand in know: KS, GW, IM, 9b.... Thats just the nature lf the “beast inside”....even when handling them like advised...there is a small probability that even than a lithium ion pack/cells can fo into thermal runaway....its unlikely and very seldom, but it still can happen. But as we didn’t have such coincidences...you are right, thats nothing to get into panic mode! If this panics someone...he also should not have a mobil phone at home...or a laptop. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) The new V10/F molded battery case enclosures appear to be sound. I’m assuming the voids surrounding the wires exiting the cases are intended to be sealed with a quality silicone and/ or a self sealing gasket. I wonder how the two shells are married together? I can’t tell from the photo if the formed cases have a male- female type overlap. Hopefully there is more than black tape holding the two shells together. Edited August 17, 2018 by Rehab1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted August 17, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) I've been trying to hint at manufacturers to make these wheel water-resistant/waterproof/weatherproof for quite some time. Although it may not have helped @YoshiSkySun's wheel when it decided to go for a swim in the water, I think in general for an outdoor electrical device running high current and voltages it's probably a wise idea to focus on making these wheels as water-resistant as possible. Rain happens. I'm surprised that InMotion is experiencing these issues since their battery packs look to be nicely housed in plastic boxes, certain areas have gaskets, and there's quite a bit of design that goes into their shells. I guess unless they purposely douse a production wheel with water, ride through puddles, and open it up, they don't really know how it will perform under real world conditions. There should be some standard rudimentary testing after a prototype wheel is made and well thought out water-resistance design concepts employed. I know they want to rush these out to consumers, but ending up with a hoverboard fire fiasco only hurts everyone in the long run. Just in case people forget, https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/14/health/pennsylvania-hoverboard-fire-kills-child/index.html Edited August 17, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 2 hours ago, esaj said: The point is not to cause panic, but there are a lot of riders out there who have no idea how dangerous especially the batteries can be. Case in point, the burned V10. I recall also at least one Gotway going up in flames before (after a crash), a number of generics (crashes and recharging) and a Solowheel (might have been riding?). i was speaking to the warnings or advice of faceplanting at 1mph or above because at anytime and it will definitely happen at some point , the wheel will cut off and u will faceplant. that may still be true. and the ones that faceplant, die and are never heard from again. fortunately, that hasn’t happened to me, yet. i’m definitely no wheel expert but i think i’m pretty strong common sense wise, and i figure the stresses a flatlander in tampa fl puts on a wheel is a lot different than treating them like donkeys carrying fat tourists up the grand canyon. like i’ve said before coming from the golf industry in my youth, golf carts that are electric down here are gasoline powered as far south as atlanta and lower, bcause electric does not do well on hills. i’m sure the golf course people figured this out about 60 years ago. is electric cheaper than gas 60 years ago, sure, but not if u factor in them running out of charge and burning up motors.( i burned out an ezgo golf cart motor on the ranch ) i’d bet money mechanically caused face plants are less in flat florida as opposed to the rest of u hillbillys in ur hilly and mountainous regions. still think a full face helmet is a good idea because i wouldn’t wanna mess up my pretty face. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glitched Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) Well, assuming this poly-carbonate casing is any good, I for one am grateful that ewheels ""worked with"" InMotion to apply an emergency fix much more robust than just a somewhat temporary, silicon sealant to the crevices of the husk. Or so I presume as any time you open the shell, I imagine closing it would require reapplying the sealant. Hopefully I can assume my 2nd batch wheel will come with whatever fixes are needed now, including this casing. Edited August 17, 2018 by Glitched 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Farrenkopf Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 That battery case must have been implemented by INMOTION as a production fix because it wouldn’t be designed and built so quickly to be available so soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marty Backe Posted August 17, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: <snip> Although it may not have helped @YoshiSkySun's wheel when it decided to go for a swim in the water, I think in general for an outdoor electrical device running high current and voltages it's probably a wise idea to focus on making these wheels as water-resistant as possible. Rain happens. I'm surprised that InMotion is experiencing these issues since their battery packs look to be nicely housed in plastic boxes, certain areas have gaskets, and there's quite a bit of design that goes into their shells. I guess unless they purposely douse a production wheel with water, ride through puddles, and open it up, they don't really know how it will perform under real world conditions. <snip> Somewhere along the line you missed the fact that the batteries in the V10F are not in plastics enclosures. Take a look at this video - it'll start where he's showing the battery. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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