New Inmotion V10 / V10F

[Glitched]

21 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

That battery case must have been implemented by INMOTION as a production fix because it wouldn’t be designed and built so quickly to be available so soon. 

Well the fix was posted here on Tuesday by InMotion, and not a word was spoken about a new battery casing as part of the deal.  Yesterday our very own eWheels dealer (coincidentally?) re-posts the battery fire news article, and tonight (my time) we suddenly have a case included as part of the repair in the recall, but actual casing parts to come in another week. I would just intuitively think that they would want to show off the entire fix all at once, so this very panic we just went through post article release wouldn't have happened.  No idea how they could work it so quickly, but I suspect eWheels had a lot to do with the entire casing additional fix. They were obviously under the gun now to make everyone whole with this recall, to avoid yet another one, so they had to work extremely quickly to make sure no ones wheels got returned without this additional battery casing. 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Glitched

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Thanks for the video, Marty.  I didn't realize they dropped the battery housing most likely to save room/costs?  Oh, @Rehab1 was posting the new battery case enclosures.   I wonder if they spray some sort of conformal silicone spray over the BMS.  The Ninebot One E+ packs have some silicone sealant applied around the seams to help keep water out.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Rehab1]

28 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Somewhere along the line you missed the fact that the batteries in the V10F are not in plastics enclosures. Take a look at this video - it'll start where he's showing the battery.

I was just watching this Green Travel video earlier today to gain some insight of the disassembly process. Pretty easy. Yes the plastic battery pack enclosures are definitely new. Hopefully there’s room for the new enclosures without having to modify the actual case. I’ve butchered enough cases for awhile. 

[novazeus]

well, get to it, i’m not crazy about it, but i’ll box up my wheel and send it back. i hate sending anything back to the dealers, cars, guns, trucks, tractors etc. i’m a very careful wrench, but i don’t have time for this. same reason i cancelled my 18l order. if my 18l locked up, i wouldn’t have disassembled it to disconnect the batteries. not my problem.

my wheel looks brand new and has very few miles on it and i want it back the same way or better. while it’s at inmotion maybe they can put the most correct software/firmware on it. 

as far as i’m concerned, my wheel is just fine the way it is, but unfortunately, i can’t ignore this recall.

as long as i get it back before october when it starts cooling a bit here, i’ll be fine. 

inmotion would be wise to give customers a freebie like a cover in a gesture of goodwill for people having to deal with this. i’m sure wholesale on a cover is less than ten bucks.

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Pretty easy

ha ha!

i remember watching that video.

i’d have it all apart like that guy did and Bob would jump in the middle of it or stealing the parts off the table with me chasing him.

[novazeus]

ha, just saw where a toy jeep cart for kids caught on fire.

when it rains it pours.

[Toshio Uemura]

7 hours ago, hal2000 said:

Not so sure about that...

Well you don’t ride a Z10, right. I do. Everyday! I rode the V8, most Gotways, the KS16 and some others ... And I am sure about it!

時間がたてばわかる (Time will tell!) ? 

[Marty Backe]

13 hours ago, mezzanine said:

And of course Marty feels the need to put a video in his sig.  

Technically, it's an animated GIF. Certainly no worse than the animated profile of your fellow Canadian @Hunka Hunka Burning Love 

[Nils]

9 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

I think the InMotion fix of a silicone barrier is laughable. I dont strike the messengers.

But I do give my own experience with the silicone and high voltage amperage applications. I was skeptical like you about silicone, but it really is best to heed the warnings and buy only specialty dielectric silicone. Even then you need to read the temp and Volt ratings carefully if used at all for this application.

Well the Kafuter 704 have good insulating properties, a good temperature range, and is manufactured for sealing electronic components. There are other similar silicone rubbers from other manufacturers such as Dow Corning if you're worried in particular about Chinese QC (but then if you worry about Chinese QC in general I'd say you have a lot to be worried about, not least with your wheels). As I said in the earlier post I suggest one should pick a good silicone with good properties, and this definitely includes checking the temperature range and insulation properties as you mention.

Regarding the fix itself I'd agree that just sealing the crack seems insufficient as the battery itself is seems to be poorly insulated, thankfully Inmotion now acknowledges this themselves by including the new battery casing.

[eufp]

More quality time with google translate reading russian forum. The new information:

user: I correctly understand that the fires are directly related to wetting, or is it not a fact?
russian dealer: Causal link is not established. The wheel for examination can not be reached. ^source

russian dealer: The latest information we managed to find out. The amount of silicone (they used on joints) is different between the first batch and the new batch. That is, it can not be determined visually.  All the rest is normal. ^source

russian dealer: According to the Inmotion.
1. We will start the hydroisolation again in a couple of days.
2. On Monday-Tuesday we will release a video on an easy DIY hydroisolation in 10f. But this is not our hydroisolation we used before. There we use a special compound. Here everything will be lighter and will be sold in a nearby store.
3. Ordered sets for an independent hydroisolation from the InMo (as on the photo on the last page: screwdrivers, silicone, etc.). The shipment will take 2 weeks. After the sets arrive we will provide them to all who wants them. /We also want to do a video, but immediately follow the writing of the post 2-3 weeks before receiving the sets by us/ -- could not decypher this (eufp). ^source

 

So it seems not only Inmotion USA is going to provide kits and do hydroisolation, but some other dealerships in other countries could too. Do you have any information from other/your countries?

Still no information about the cause of fire, risks to the current wheels and what is improved in a new batch.

EDIT: Also, according to the russian dealer, Inmotion told him that only two wheels from their shipment (to russia) are in the risk zone.
user: In theory, will they send these boxes for the isolation of the battery to you?
russian dealer: Yes. But only for the two wheels, which we discussed above. And this is not for the battery defense. This is an internal box to protect the entire wheel. ^source

Edited August 17, 2018 by eufp

[ir_fuel]

16 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

Number one, Silicone will not hold on this vehicle and will not keep water out for more than a season at most. It says it can handle high temps, but it doesnt handle the daily temperature swings of my roof and that rides nowhere.

Just wondering. I have flexible filaments that can withstand heat and all kinds of chemicals. Wouldn't it be possible to simply design and print a gasket to fit in there? Can't be that hard.

[Harold Farrenkopf]

1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

Just wondering. I have flexible filaments that can withstand heat and all kinds of chemicals. Wouldn't it be possible to simply design and print a gasket to fit in there? Can't be that hard.

Once the battery is totally encased, there shouldn't be issues if water gets in there. When I get the kit and do the repair, I'm going to evaluate all the components and determine for myself, what other measures are needed. I may even put drain holes in it if I feel it can't be perfect (except for the battery and electronics).

I wonder if a heat pipe can be installed and connected to another heat sink or even the pedal support?

Personally, I think all those side LEDs should be done away with in favour of a better designed wheel. Use that real estate for heat dissipation instead. I wanted the safest wheel, not the one with the most lights on it.

[eufp]

3 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

I think all those side LEDs should be done away with in favour of a better designed wheel. Use that real estate for heat dissipation instead. I wanted the safest wheel, not the one with the most lights on it.

LED serve the passive safety, when you drive at night or dusk—so they are not completely unjustified there.

[kjon12]

16 hours ago, esaj said:

- The wheels use metal-encased cylindrical 18650 lithium-ion cells, not LiPos (LiPo's are not really lithium polymer through, just "pouch cells", the chemistry is similar to formulations used in 18650's, just the "packaging" differs), pretty sure on this. They don't "swell", if the internal pressure is high enough, either the safety vent will trigger (at which point the cell may shoot out flames), or if the vent fails, which happens, or doesn't open fast enough if the pressure build up is fast, it will explode (again possibly with flames).

I agree that the batteries in our wheels are not pouch style LiPos, but metal encased with a capacitor-like form factor. My point for the whole post was basically that water intrusion is probably not the cause of a fire. Your suggestion that a very high discharge rate could cause dendrites that pierce the membrane between portions of the cell, thus leading to catastrophic failure is interesting, though. If this were happening, You would think that the guys that really stress their wheels would have more cell failures,but that doesn’t seem to be happening.

Most of the fire related failures with hover boards seemed to be happening during charging, and it sounded like the V10F that caught fire was on the charger or had been exhibiting strange behavior during charging. I’m wondering if there is a correlation.

[Toshio Uemura]

24 minutes ago, eufp said:

LED serve the passive safety, when you drive at night or dusk—so they are not completely unjustified there.

... and ... and ... and ... they are beautiful! Some of us have to think of the girls they are to attract! (whistle)

[Harold Farrenkopf]

41 minutes ago, eufp said:

LED serve the passive safety, when you drive at night or dusk—so they are not completely unjustified there.

Sure but it is taking up so much real estate on the wheel just for looks. I'm sure all those big hill riders would have preferred larger heat sinks and cooling methods than all those LEDs.... 

[kjon12]

16 hours ago, Jeffrey Scott Will said:

Who did you buy from? InMotion USA doesn't have sales records of other distributors. eWheels is reaching out to their customers as well, but they also would not have access to other distributors customer information and sales records. InMotion China shares updates about all of these issues with their sellers, so they should be informing their customers.

Has anyone who purchased their V10F from eWheels been contacted by them re: this problem/solution? I haven’t seen anything, nor do I see anything on their website.

[Stan Onymous]

3 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Just wondering. I have flexible filaments that can withstand heat and all kinds of chemicals. Wouldn't it be possible to simply design and print a gasket to fit in there? Can't be that hard.

No, InMotion cheaped out on materials thinking no one would mind if they rushed these vehicles out without fully being ready. Once the battery box is finally installed, the battery protection should be fine. This speaks to their culture of corporate misconductwith regards to the V10. The overload problem was probably known to InMotion before they released the vehicle and they decided it was good enough for us. Because, even with all the overloads, its still okay for most. This is a slippery slope that almost burned down a part of London. 

So all it took for them to fix the water problem properly was a fire. What will it take for them to fix the overload problem properly? Probably a massive assault on all of their Social media forums to fix this!

I understand the feeling of giving them the benefit of doubt. It means you are a decent person, but it doesnt motivate the company to fix something the nice customers think is not the company’s fault. Companies are formed to solve problems and make money doing it, or the other way around.

Lets make them solve this problem! It will only make the vehicle better for all, not just the ones getting the overloads! Lets make them make it better.

We bought it, you fix it! We bought it, you fix it! We bought it, you fix it! We bought it, you fix it! Yay!  

[Stan Onymous]

1 hour ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

Sure but it is taking up so much real estate on the wheel just for looks. I'm sure all those big hill riders would have preferred larger heat sinks and cooling methods than all those LEDs.... 

Actually a better designed board like the one they were going to roll out for the wheel would solve all of the Overload issues without sacrificing features or space. It wasnt ready for the summer roll out, so they went ahead without it. I have a mole. Well a couple actually.

They have a totally different control board for the V10, but it would not have been ready til the end of Summer, so they went with this control board design even though there WERE problems on the drawing board and the tests. To be kind, the faults with the board and the CPU vs Control board temps and their hiding of that temperature reading in an app that reads everything else, does seem to point to an urge to deal with the problem. The problem was however swept under the heat sink, so its still there. We shall see if they honor themselves with respect to their reputation as a safer better build quality machine.

Segway has eaten their Lunch in this respect. They even redesigned their control boards and other features before final release. Has it hurt their numbers? We shall see, but it certainly doesnt seem so from reading this forum. It actually has made the early adopters of the other vehicles look a little foolish, as we struggle with the companies to get the vehicles completed for a safe fault free ride.

Hopefully InMotion will also own up to this design flaw by the end of summer too. And they should, since the V10F has the potential to be the best Wheel of 2018. Right now it is in the cellar.

[Stan Onymous]

1 hour ago, kjon12 said:

Has anyone who purchased their V10F from eWheels been contacted by them re: this problem/solution? I haven’t seen anything, nor do I see anything on their website.

Yes, I was personally contacted by Jason yesterday. He mentioned the Battery enclosures he was fighting with InMotion China to provide for the first batch vehicles that have been installed on the second batch vehicles already. He said when he had a solution working with InMotion USA’s help he would send out the shipping labels to all the customers. The battery enclosures will be installed and shipped back to the customers.

[Harold Farrenkopf]

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/08/17/mother-saves-kids-toy-car-fire-orig-vstan-bdk.cnn?utm_source=fbCNN&utm_term=video&utm_medium=social&utm_content=2018-08-17T15%3A32%3A05

 

[Harold Farrenkopf]

12 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Yes, I was personally contacted by Jason yesterday. He mentioned the Battery enclosures he was fighting with InMotion China to provide for the first batch vehicles that have been installed on the second batch vehicles already. He said when he had a solution working with InMotion USA’s help he would send out the shipping labels to all the customers. The battery enclosures will be installed and shipped back to the customers.

Just as I thought! Inmotion already had these designed and in production. What's next? New board? I didn't think I was going to be a guinea pig when I bought this wheel. I thought it was a finished product and not a product in development.

[Nils]

43 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Yes, I was personally contacted by Jason yesterday. He mentioned the Battery enclosures he was fighting with InMotion China to provide for the first batch vehicles that have been installed on the second batch vehicles already. He said when he had a solution working with InMotion USA’s help he would send out the shipping labels to all the customers. The battery enclosures will be installed and shipped back to the customers.

Thanks for the info. Do you have any idea what the second batch here refers to - wheels shipped after May 5th or eWheel's second batch coming in now?  I'm still waiting for confirmation on exactly what batch/date my wheel comes from, but should I luck out and have a later wheel with a stronger seal I'm wondering if it has the enclosure or whether it's still a good idea to have a look at sealing the battery further.

My AliExpress seller knew nothing about the water issue when I asked FWIW, so waiting for him to be in contact with InMotion China and report back..

[Stan Onymous]

37 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

thought it was a finished product and not a product in development

I hope you were being sarcastic. First adopters rarely get a finished product in any first release no matter what the industry. I knew what I was in for. I am holding up my end of the agreement, and now they need to fulfill theirs too.

[Nils]

1 hour ago, Stan Onymous said:

Actually a better designed board like the one they were going to roll out for the wheel would solve all of the Overload issues without sacrificing features or space. It wasnt ready for the summer roll out, so they went ahead without it. I have a mole. Well a couple actually.

They have a totally different control board for the V10, but it would not have been ready til the end of Summer, so they went with this control board design even though there WERE problems on the drawing board and the tests. To be kind, the faults with the board and the CPU vs Control board temps and their hiding of that temperature reading in an app that reads everything else, does seem to point to an urge to deal with the problem. The problem was however swept under the heat sink, so its still there. We shall see if they honor themselves with respect to their reputation as a safer better build quality machine.

Segway has eaten their Lunch in this respect. They even redesigned their control boards and other features before final release. Has it hurt their numbers? We shall see, but it certainly doesnt seem so from reading this forum. It actually has made the early adopters of the other vehicles look a little foolish, as we struggle with the companies to get the vehicles completed for a safe fault free ride.

Hopefully InMotion will also own up to this design flaw by the end of summer too. And they should, since the V10F has the potential to be the best Wheel of 2018. Right now it is in the cellar.

Interesting, yet frustrating to hear Did your moles indicate whether the board would need some accompanying modifications, such as an expanded heat sink or whether it could be a drop-in replacement?