New Inmotion V10 / V10F

[Rehab1]

This is sad news especially for the dealers that have invested large sums of capital importing quantities of the V10F. If I were a dealer I would not accept any future shipments from Inmotion until due diligence has been performed by an independent agency and full disclosure of their findings presented in uncensored detail.  We all know Inmotion will never agree to this!

Edited August 16, 2018 by Rehab1

[Glitched]

17 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Also, are there any pictures of later batches? They say it’s not a problem anymore but has the battery also been improved?

I'll show you in a few weeks if you buy me a fire retardant suit.

Also the way I read it, it sounds like the 'problem' is the weather proofing, not the battery wraps (which I'd think IS still a problem if they chose a cheap protection that makes it easy for batteries to explode if the seals break down over time with falls etc.)). The deficient battery wraps we just found out with our forum's great snooping abilities.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Glitched

[Harold Farrenkopf]

1 hour ago, Stan Onymous said:

 Dont just use any Silicone to do the repair yourself. Some silicone sealants can conduct electricity and this could short out the components if not done properly.

I've never heard of a conductive Silicone sealant. Why would they make that? Never mind, I googled it. Very special silicones and epoxies that you wouldn't find at your typical hardware store.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Harold Farrenkopf

[Harold Farrenkopf]

I'd say the battery compartment should have used an O ring design to seal it plus have the battery completely enclosed and protected from liquids. Everytime we take the shells apart, we are going to have to reapply the sealant. Also maybe putting a drain hole(s) in it just in case the sealant fails??? only after fully protecting the battery.

Now, do we wait some more time to see if Inmotion will do something different for us (exchange) before we proceed with repairing it ourselves? I've got the tools already and sealant is no big deal to get. But how good a sealant do we get that can still be removed if we need to go back in there or separate the shells in the future?

[em1barns]

Is it me or v5 and v8 batteries were enclosed into an internal plastic box, when v10 is just sitting in the shell as is?

[eufp]

1 hour ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

Now, do we wait some more time to see if Inmotion will do something different for us (exchange) before we proceed with repairing it ourselves? I've got the tools already and sealant is no big deal to get. But how good a sealant do we get that can still be removed if we need to go back in there or separate the shells in the future?

Maybe I am too adventurous, but I would even appreciate some information from them. What is the matter, how to remedy it, what is the status of a new batch, how they solved the issues, and some plan how to solve the things.

But I guess we will not have it. Maybe write to their facebook, raise awareness to the issue, so that they know that we are waiting? Otherwise I am not sure I will go through with my preorder nor recommend the product to others. EDIT: but I think it is prudent to give them some time to sort the things out, get to the core of it. Several days?

Edited August 16, 2018 by eufp

[eufp]

1 hour ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

Can you get more details about this? I am too new in the EUC scene, to be aware of 'two inmotion companies'!

@MBIKER_SURFER https://www.myinmotion.com/blogs/news/the-story-behind-inmotion-and-solowheel This link could help.

Edited August 16, 2018 by eufp
tagged mbiker_surfer

[Nils]

2 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

One more thing. Dont just use any Silicone to do the repair yourself. Some silicone sealants can conduct electricity and this could short out the components if not done properly. 

 

1 hour ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

I've never heard of a conductive Silicone sealant. Why would they make that? Never mind, I googled it. Very special silicones and epoxies that you wouldn't find at your typical hardware store.

No, I do think chances are small that you pick a conductive silicon by mistake. That being said, I think it's good advice to to take care in picking a good silicone and not just some bathroom grade silicone off the shelf. For reference what seems to be included in the kit is Kafuter 704 which is a Chinese silicone rubber that you can buy off AliExpress for instance  (if you care to wait for delivery). It's likely you can get something similar faster from some local store (here in Sweden suitable sealants are not carried by general hardware stores though it seems, so YMMV). If you can find any good neutral cure RTV silicone adhesive sealant with good properties I think you're good (feel free to correct me though, I'm definitely not an expert but spent more time than I care to admit reading up on silicone this week).

With regards to taking it off then ethyl alcohol and a putty knife will come in useful it seems, which I believe that will be the same for more or less all silicone sealants (https://www.ehow.com/how_6593127_remove-silicone-rubber.html).

Edited August 16, 2018 by Nils
Damn speling

[kjon12]

Seems to me there are some details lacking here with respect to the batteries, water, and the failure mechanism. I fly a lot of RC airplanes, helicopters, and drones, all of which use a style of lithium batteries (Lithiun Polymer, or LiPos for short.) When these batteries get damaged from extreme discharge, or physical damage from crashes resulting in severe mechanical impact with the ground, the batteries can fail internally, which results in thermal runaway due to extremely large current flows between the internal sections of the cells.  The batteries swell up and get hot. The fail-safe method of disposing of these batteries is to soak them in water mixed with salt. This causes the batteries to discharge below their minimum working voltage of about 3.2 volts, which causes them to cease functioning.

So water is not the failure mechanism causing a fire, per se. Water is what they recommend you use to prevent the fire! That, plus suffocating the battery in sand so there is no oxygen to contribute to a blaze. 

What could happen, though, is that the flat metal wire that is used to connect the top and bottom of the cells together to make the parallel and series connections can corrode to the the point of a) shorting one battery lead to the next (this would require a long bridge of corrosion to cover the space between contacts on adjacent batteries), or b) creating a very resistive contact from the battery's + or - tip electrode to the connection contact, causing it to heat up due to high current flow through a resistive contact. (This would imply that the solder had broken down between the flat wire and the battery electrode.) It's hard to say how long, time wise, it would take for these corrosive effects to occur to the point of failure. And even then, would it really cause a fire, or just cause the battery to slowly discharge to the point it no longer can function as a battery?

So that raises the question...what's causing the fire? If the batteries aren't mechanically damaged, i.e. pierced by a sharp metal object, or crunched due to high impact with an immovable object, it's kind of puzzling. I would think that the main effect of getting water into the battery assembly would be a dead battery, not a fire. It might be more important to worry about the charging system:

https://www.cnet.com/news/why-are-hoverboards-exploding-and-catching-fire/

Fires in phones usually are associated with charging the cells:

Fires usually occur because there is a very high discharge of energy in a short period of time, like a short circuit of wires that are too small to carry the amperage, or as in the video above, from faulty charging circuits. It would be interesting to know how the power switch on the top of the V10F is involved with the failure mechanism, and the battery charge level indicator. The videos that show the battery level indicator acting strangely on the V10F indicate something funky is happening in the circuitry of the wheel.  

 

[Sketch]

1 hour ago, em1barns said:

Is it me or v5 and v8 batteries were enclosed into an internal plastic box, when v10 is just sitting in the shell as is?

This is true and a big part of the problem.  This plastic box should have been put in place when Marty had issues with the battery on his pre production model.  This plastic case would have done a lot to solve the problem with water intake.  That’s why we don’t hear about this problem with the V8.  Was INMOTION trying to save money by cutting this out?  It’s proving to be big mistake and something they should recall and make right before people get hurt or killed.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Sketch

[Stan Onymous]

46 minutes ago, Nils said:

 

No, I do think chances are small that you pick a conductive silicon by mistake. That being said, I think it's good advice to to take care in picking a good silicone and not just some bathroom grade silicone off the shelf. For reference what seems to be included in the kit is Kafuter 704 which is a Chinese silicone rubber that you can buy off AliExpress for instance  (if you care to wait for delivery). It's likely you can get something similar faster from some local store (here in Sweden suitable sealants are not carried by general hardware stores though it seems, so YMMV). If you can find any good neutral cure RTV silicone adhesive sealant with good properties I think you're good (feel free to correct me though, I'm definitely not an expert but spent more time than I care to admit reading up on silicone this week).

With regards to taking it off then ethyl alcohol and a putty knife will come in useful it seems, which I believe that will be the same for more or less all silicone sealants (https://www.ehow.com/how_6593127_remove-silicone-rubber.html).

Number one, Silicone will not hold on this vehicle and will not keep water out for more than a season at most. It says it can handle high temps, but it doesnt handle the daily temperature swings of my roof and that rides nowhere.

In my Solar panel hook up, I used a really good silicone sealant and it - One separated from the bonded materials after about a month. Two, my electrician cautioned me about using silicone saying it can conduct electricity since its not necessarily for putting on electrical parts but for bonding and weatherproofing primarily. In these high voltage high amp scenarios, silicone can indeed cause shorts as it did on one of my junction boxes that got some over spread of silicone on them. 

Silicon is a semiconductor, and you can read that Silicone is both conductive in the rubber form or insulative and Not conductive. So if you trust a Chinese company has the qc for screening out metals like carbon and other metals, you would be wise to hold off on the Silicone repair. 

RTV silicon is conductive, so check your sealant if that is the bandaid you wish to apply.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Stan Onymous

[Marty Backe]

31 minutes ago, kjon12 said:

<snip>

So that raises the question...what's causing the fire? If the batteries aren't mechanically damaged, i.e. pierced by a sharp metal object, or crunched due to high impact with an immovable object, it's kind of puzzling. I would think that the main effect of getting water into the battery assembly would be a dead battery, not a fire. It might be more important to worry about the charging system:

<snip>

Your nice commentary and highly pertinent question is what we need answers to. From 3rd hand accounts Inmotion tried to bury the incident and I have my doubts that they will be forthcoming as to the failure mechanism and the nitty gritty details on measures that they have taken to fix this. I doubt any user-applied corrective action will be sufficient.

This fire is no doubt an edge case. But aren't battery fires our collective biggest worry that we think about periodically? My failed V10F from water intrusion (in Southern California no less, where very low humidity is the norm) would give me great pause if I currently owned a V10F. It wouldn't keep me up at night, but I would be greatly disappointed considering the high quality that's associated with the Inmotion name relative to Gotway, my most chosen brand.

[Toshio Uemura]

8 hours ago, Siggy said:

N.B. @Marty Backe @Toshio Uemura Whilst I certainly would feel the same way in your shoes, it’s slightly more complicated than that due to potential legal proceedings. 

I am afraid not!

My shoes ? ? will probably not fit you.

And there is nothing complicated about this: People‘s SAFETY and the chance to make educated decisions when buying or selling a brand MUST come BEFORE potential legal proceedings! 

[Rehab1]

47 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

RTV silicon is conductive, so check your sealant if that is the bandaid you wish to apply.

Below is an informative article on suggested silicone materials for electronic devices. You can also research the data sheets on the dielectric properties of silicon from each manufacture.

General Electric or Dow Corning makes some with good dielectric properties. Dow 732 is a common type. The data sheet says 550 volts per millimeter.This dielectric silicone product is available on Amazon and received excellent reviews. 

https://www.amazon.com/Clear-Electronic-Grade-Silicone-Squeeze/dp/B0063U2RT8 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Rehab1

[Nils]

33 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Number one, Silicone will not hold on this vehicle and will not keep water out for more than a season at most. It says it can handle high temps, but it doesnt handle the daily temperature swings of my roof and that rides nowhere.

In my Solar panel hook up, I used a really good silicone sealant and it - One separated from the bonded materials after about a month. Two, my electrician cautioned me about using silicone saying it can conduct electricity since its not necessarily for putting on electrical parts but for bonding and weatherproofing primarily. In these high voltage high amp scenarios, silicone can indeed cause shorts as it did on one of my junction boxes that got some over spread of silicone on them. 

Silicon is a semiconductor, and you can read that Silicone is both conductive in the rubber form or insulative and Not conductive. So if you trust a Chinese company has the qc for screening out metals like carbon and other metals, you would be wise to hold off on the Silicone repair. 

RTV silicon is conductive, so check your sealant if that is the bandaid you wish to apply.

Well, anything is conductive with a high enough voltage. My post mentions Kafuter 704 which is what is being used for the Inmotion kit it seems, and my impression is that this has good electrical insulation in its cured state. If you send it in, it seems likely you'll get the same treatment as what is apparently suggested with the DYI kit. I'm not sure whether you object to Inmotion's suggested fix, or whether you think I got that wrong, or something else in my post?

Edited August 16, 2018 by Nils

[Harold Farrenkopf]

I'm thinking that waterproofing the battery pack completely is a better solution than trusting the seal in the tire well will hold up with stones and rocks grinding between the tire and the plastic shell. I'm going to do that as well. I hope I don't have signs of water in the battery when I disassemble the wheel. 

[eufp]

9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

 I would be greatly disappointed considering the high quality that's associated with the Inmotion name relative to Gotway, my most chosen brand.

Yes, I did not care about money when I made a preorder. I just wanted the most comfortable, safe, easy to use unicycle. Inmotion "had my money", but I will monitor the situation for a week or two, whether they will answer our collective questions (list below) and whether their actions would again instill confidence in us as consumers. Meanwhile I will have a look at Gotways and KingSongs. Ah well, and here I thought I have chosen an undisputed pinnacle of unicycling.

Questions (please add if you feel there are some omitted):

1. Overheating problems, how do they address it and what will be done?
2. Water problems, why they told us to stop driving when the road is wet, and what will they do with it (globally, not just Inmotion USA)
3. Battery insulation status, whether it is now better than shown in this post?
4. What improvements are there in the new batch and what problems do they solve?

[Toshio Uemura]

3 minutes ago, eufp said:

Meanwhile I will have a look at Gotways and KingSongs.

Z10 ... the one that rules them all ... ? 

[Harold Farrenkopf]

2 minutes ago, Toshio Uemura said:

Z10 ... the one that rules them all ... ? 

I heard it won't be in North America??? til Christmas time!

[Toshio Uemura]

30 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

I heard it won't be in North America??? til Christmas time!

You should complain at the White House. Didn’t they promise you: „America FIRST!“

Anyway! .... It’s worth waiting, .... unless you collect EUCs like @Marty Backe does. I started wondering whether Marty has more fun riding EUCs or rather collecting them. Don’t you have anything else to ride until Christmas? I am almost sure the Z will do well on snow in winter time ⛄️. Can’t wait to try. You should order one before Mr. trump has them banned from the ??. That would mean „America worst!“ ? 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Toshio Uemura

[UniVehje]

I really hope they do the right thing and just recall and start over with a new batch of wheels. Jason hinted that they have done a lot of impovements on them. The first batch was 200 wheels and it would probably cost around 100 000 - 150 000 € to recall and replace them all. A lot of money but might be worth it in a long run. 

If I didn’t read this forum I would still be extremely happy with my V10F. I have no issues with it. And I really like many aspects of it. Lately I have been using it for work and I appreciate the comfort and how easy it is to change settings for different shoes and riding styles. InMotion has done so many things right that I really hope they get past this. I’m sure they have a great future with many great wheels. 

But now there is this fire issue looming over them. That is so serious that it cannot be ignored. I thought it was a bummer that I bought an expensive wheel and then have to finish the assembly process myself. I was relatively ok with that as I took the risk preordering on the first batch. But now I’m not sure what else is worse than the later batches. They must be open and share everything. Maybe the fire was completely unrelated but until that is confirmed the only logical thing is to worry about our wheels. 

I will open my V10F this weekend and see if there are any sings of water and what the battery sealing looks like. 

 

[eufp]

Another nugget of information fished with google translate.

russian dealer: Looking for the owner of the v10f with serial xxx. If you have not burned down yet - write a personal message)))   ^source
other user: The rest of us, including those who pre-ordered, can sleep peacefully? I am quite agitated after reading : / ^source
russian dealer: as the company says - yes. But we are still waiting for information on how the old ones differ from the new ones. This I say about spring-summer time. ^source
russian dealer: The plant says the rest of the wheels are ok. There is no more information. ^source

 

At least we can find out some information as a collective mind. What about others who do not frequent this forum? It's a pity Inmotion is not more open and forthcoming.

Edited August 16, 2018 by eufp
Added 4th reaction.

[eufp]

1 minute ago, UniVehje said:

I will open my V10F this weekend and see if there are any sings of water and what the battery sealing looks like. 

Please post pictures.

[hal2000]

51 minutes ago, Toshio Uemura said:

Z10 ... the one that rules them all ... ? 

Not so sure about that...

[MBIKER_SURFER]

2 minutes ago, hal2000 said:

Not so sure about that...

That is, what we expected from the V10 too .......

Edited August 16, 2018 by MBIKER_SURFER