Popular Post Turbocharged Posted June 3, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2018 4 hours ago, mrelwood said: Well, the pedals were downgraded to basic ones... I don't think you have thought very much about the physics of braking and accelerating on an EUC. Aesthetic wise, the production padels are a downgrade from the original design, but performance wise, the old E+ padels are much better, aside from quite slipery when wet. The orginal design is long but narrow at heels, we tried it and most people didn't like it and request for a wider padel design. We were hoping for something new, but the E+ ones are ok performance wise. As for braking, you might kick Z out and sit on your butt on a downhill slope because you haven't got the hang of it or the slope is too much for Z to handle, but on a flat and smooth terrain, Z may takes longer to stop, but it shouldn't cause you to fall on your back unless you really try to overdo it. He landed on his feet... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Scatcat Posted June 3, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, Turbocharged said: Aesthetic wise, the production padels are a downgrade from the original design, but performance wise, the old E+ padels are much better, aside from quite slipery when wet. The orginal design is long but narrow at heels, we tried it and most people didn't like it and request for a wider padel design. We were hoping for something new, but the E+ ones are ok performance wise. As for braking, you might kick Z out and sit on your butt on a downhill slope because you haven't got the hang of it or the slope is too much for Z to handle, but on a flat and smooth terrain, Z may takes longer to stop, but it shouldn't cause you to fall on your back unless you really try to overdo it. He landed on his feet... So the solution should have been to widen the heel side of the pedal some. The length was one thing that stood out as really good. If you announce your wheel having an 1800W motor, the EUC crowd will expect that number to be the nominal power, with a temporary max-power in the 3-3.5kW range. That should be enough to stop even a big wheel like the 9BZ pretty fast, given the handling of regenerative current is anywhere close to adequate. It seems 9B have made a few unlucky decisions regarding the power parts of the design. They should have gone with a higher voltage, and hang the certifications. The 1800W announced should have been the nominal power, not the max. The higher maximum voltage should have made it possible to wire the motor for better torque without losing max RPM. The higher voltage should have alleviated some of the heat-problems. They should have followed up real 1800W power with pedals giving enough leverage to use the power. They should have either used a tyre that allowed better cushion even with tube-less design, or accepted using a tube. Where are we now, after the enticing initial promo-videos? Those looked like the new wheel would be really awesome on the trail. Being able to negotiate tree roots, bumps, rocks, sand, mud, inclines and so on. We're left with a wheel that is significantly less powerful than what has existed for two years or more, that is just as unforgiving on uneven ground, that have heat problems, and limited range. The lateral stability in side-slopes and with rocks and roots hitting a side part of the wheel may be even worse than we're used to. So it looks cool, but that seems to be all she wrote. Apart from looking cool, give me a single reason to choose the 9BZ10 before: MSuper X KS18L Inmotion V10F All of which are in the same price-range, have 84V batteries, a handle on temperatures, good torque and high nominal power. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jason McNeil Posted June 3, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2018 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Turbocharged said: Aesthetic wise, the production padels are a downgrade from the original design, but performance wise, the old E+ padels are much better, aside from quite slipery when wet The foot surface area on the V10F's pedals has set a new benchmark, nearly every other pedal design is on the range of barely-adequate to not-good-enough. On the day the Z10 arrived, it was moderately wet outside; taking on it's maiden spin, my foot slipped in the first 10 meters! Criticisms surrounding the Z series development program are not without foundation. The Northern hemisphere (North America, Western Europe, Korea, Russia & Japan) according to sources at KS, GW & IM represent >80% of Wheel sales, to release a product that has been in the labs for over two years, at the end of the season, is certainly going to impair the chances of the success it might have otherwise been, than if it was released in March & available in large numbers by the spring. 22 minutes ago, Scatcat said: They should have gone with a higher voltage, and hang the certifications. It's also not certain (as far as I'm aware) if the Z10 will be going through the UL certification anyways. If this is so, does seem to be a bit odd that the technical specifications would be dictated by a non-existent requirement. 22 minutes ago, Scatcat said: Apart from looking cool, give me a single reason to choose the 9BZ10 before: One could argue 1) at lower pressures the wider tire make it easier to learn on, 2) better traction on loose gravel & compacted sand. In many other usage scenarios the extra weight, pedal design & performance traits [still unverified] could make it a harder sell on ride quality properties alone over the other contenders. It's still early days to form a definitive picture of how this battle between the manufacturers higher-performance class Wheels is going to play out. Edited June 3, 2018 by Jason McNeil 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharged Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 13 minutes ago, Scatcat said: So the solution should have been to widen the heel side of the pedal some. Apart from looking cool, give me a single reason to choose the 9BZ10 before: MSuper X KS18L Inmotion V10F We were hoping for the same but Ninebot decided to go with E+ padel... Apart from looking cool, the 3 wheels you mentioned are probably all better than Z in every other areas... but, there are people opt for a Lexus LC instead of a full blown Impreza Sti... this may not be a good example but hope you get what I am trying to say. Another reason people, especially in the north regions of China, will buy Z over GW Inmotion or KS is because the semi-official user community group and the activities it organizes. You cannot participate with a wheel from other manufacturers. Also ninebot does believed to have better service, depending on the region an end user is living in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 20 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: The foot surface area on the V10F's pedals has set a new benchmark, nearly every other pedal design is on the range of barely-adequate to not-good-enough. On the day the Z10 arrived, it was moderately wet outside; taking on it's maiden spin, my foot slipped in the first 10 meters! Criticisms surrounding the Z series development program are not without foundation. The Northern hemisphere (North America, Western Europe, Korea, Russia & Japan) according to sources at KS, GW & IM represent >80% of Wheel sales, to release a product that has been in the labs for over two years, at the end of the season, is certainly going to impair the chances of the success it might have otherwise been, than if it was released in March & available in large numbers by the spring. It's also not certain (as far as I'm aware) if the Z10 will be going through the UL certification anyways. If this is so, does seem to be a bit odd that the technical specifications would be dictated by a non-existent requirement. One could argue 1) at lower pressures the wider tire make it easier to learn on, 2) better traction on loose gravel & compacted sand. In many other usage scenarios the extra weight, pedal design & performance traits [still unverified] could make it a harder sell on ride quality properties alone over the other contenders. It's still early days to form a definitive picture of how this battle between the manufacturers higher-performance class Wheels is going to play out. 1) Probably, to a point. 2) Probably, to a point. But i wonder how much of a difference it would make compared to the 3"-tyre of MSuperX? That last point is well taken. We still only/mostly have the beta testing done. When the real deal hits the market we will know better. I still feel a bit let down. This should/could have been so good, and now it seems to be more like barely adequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, Turbocharged said: We were hoping for the same but Ninebot decided to go with E+ padel... Apart from looking cool, the 3 wheels you mentioned are probably all better than Z in every other areas... but, there are people opt for a Lexus LC instead of a full blown Impreza Sti... this may not be a good example but hope you get what I am trying to say. Another reason people, especially in the north regions of China, will buy Z over GW Inmotion or KS is because the semi-official user community group and the activities it organizes. You cannot participate with a wheel from other manufacturers. Also ninebot does believed to have better service, depending on the region an end user is living in. Oh, I understand what you're saying, and you have my respect for it. Actually it doesn't seem to be a "bad" wheel. It's just that it won't come close to live up to its promise. It could have been a game changer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Turbocharged Posted June 3, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Scatcat said: Oh, I understand what you're saying, and you have my respect for it. Actually it doesn't seem to be a "bad" wheel. It's just that it won't come close to live up to its promise. It could have been a game changer. Actually, Ninebot is inexperienced in designing a high performance wheel, we should give them time for them to catch up. I hear 9B engineers disassembled a Mten3 to find out how GW squeezes that much power and juice in such a small form factor... they failed to put it back... that’s a story that I heard But Ninebot has the resources to really make something NEW, if they really try. We often joke about GW being incapable of designing, they put together a good motor with good algorithms, and they just make an ugly case big enough to house it, and then they ride it a bit, put rubber padding at wherever that hurts! To the market... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Scatcat Posted June 3, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2018 (edited) On 6/3/2018 at 4:24 PM, Turbocharged said: Actually, Ninebot is inexperienced in designing a high performance wheel, we should give them time for them to catch up. I hear 9B engineers disassembled a Mten3 to find out how GW squeezes that much power and juice in such a small form factor... they failed to put it back... that’s a story that I heard But Ninebot has the resources to really make something NEW, if they really try. We often joke about GW being incapable of designing, they put together a good motor with good algorithms, and they just make an ugly case big enough to house it, and then they ride it a bit, put rubber padding at wherever that hurts! To the market... I'm not that certain about the quality of their algorithms though, at least not in all details. They seem to get the "feeling" right, but there also seem to be a lot of power spikes that could/should be filtered out. It is a bit like working with a sound-rig. You can have two almost identical rigs, and both sound exactly the same, and is rated at the same power. But if one of them have better control over power-spikes, the risk of overheating or burning a capacitor, transistor or coil is much less. In reality a quick and effective limiter for spikes, can make the rig able to play much louder without breaking down or sounding distorted. I see some such power spikes on my GT16 when I look in wheellog, but they're pretty moderate. Even though I have a 2/3.5kW motor, the spikes seldom top 40-45A at full charge, usually lower. I normally know exactly what caused them too - which crack in the road that made the board kick out all that extra energy. It would be interesting to ride side by side with a GW user and compare logs over the same track, I suspect their spikes are a lot bigger. Update: Just an illustration from today... Edited June 4, 2018 by Scatcat 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 I drank the kool-aid on the Z series and am very disappointed with the early returns. I'm especially disappointed to hear that the tubeless tire design doesn't seem to be imparting any shock absorbing benefit. I was somewhat reconciled to the idea that it would be under-powered, but had hoped they would find ways to finesse their engineering so that it was still competitive, like KS did with the 67v Sport series. Credit goes to @US69 for calling this when the hype train was still chugging along. To be fair, I think the early spec release indicated it would be an 84v wheel. Really makes me wonder how they were able to get this so wrong. I think I underestimated how important it is to be constantly implementing revisions like Gotway does, whereby they get customer feedback and are able to tweak their current production instead of developing using a long release pipeline. I was completely sold on the concept of the wider tire. To hear that it doesn't seem to provide much benefit is the real surprise for me. I really thought it would advance EUC safety significantly. Very disappointed. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 5, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) I wonder what would happen if one were to plug in an 84 V battery pack into the Ninebot Z... I remember Jason McNeil plugged in a 67.2 V pack into a Ninebot One E+, and it still functioned. I don't know if maybe the pack wasn't fully charged or not. Would the control board detect an over-voltage and tilt back to protect the battery like in a downhill regenerative situation with a full charge? Maybe the Russian firmware hackers could alter the settings, but Ninebot likely has a special battery arrangement to fit around the hub making it difficult to cram 84 V of batteries in there... We need Gotway to get their own Z version designed in conjunction with @EUC Extreme to make it a 80 kph wheel that can offroad like a motorcross bike. The Gotway ViperZ EUC Extreme Limited Edition. Okay, show of hands - how many people would want a wheel like that? Edited June 5, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love 4 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esper Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Okay, show of hands - how many people would want a wheel like that? I think that would be a little much for me. Honestly, I just want a wheel that's safer to ride through bad pavement but can climb hills without overheating. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Dream big or go home. https://www.wanderlustworker.com/11-reasons-why-you-should-dream-big/ It's nice to have a healthy margin of power available just in case. Do we need 254 hp in a Landrover when say 150 would do? Am I going to drive my Porsche GT3 at 311 kph just because it can? The Gotway ViperZ EE edition can do what you need to and more. You will reach your limits before you ever see its limits. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 9 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Dream big or go home. https://www.wanderlustworker.com/11-reasons-why-you-should-dream-big/ It's nice to have a healthy margin of power available just in case. Do we need 254 hp in a Landrover when say 150 would do? Am I going to drive my Porsche GT3 at 311 kph just because it can? The Gotway ViperZ EE edition can do what you need to and more. You will reach your limits before you ever see its limits. I thought it was the Gotway ViperZ HHBL edition that we all need... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) Yes that's the extra special edition soon to follow! It has a suspension dampened snack tray, gimbal mounted drink holder, and a built-in soda cooler! Edited June 5, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Lee Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 29 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Dream big or go home. https://www.wanderlustworker.com/11-reasons-why-you-should-dream-big/ It's nice to have a healthy margin of power available just in case. Do we need 254 hp in a Landrover when say 150 would do? Am I going to drive my Porsche GT3 at 311 kph just because it can? The Gotway ViperZ EE edition can do what you need to and more. You will reach your limits before you ever see its limits. +1 on my Concour 14, I can hit 70 mph on first gear and governed at 186 mph. The beauty of it is that in 6th gear I'm hovering at 4000 rpm at 70- 80 mph which is very relaxing... I'm with you, you can't never have too much power or money... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Yes that's the extra special edition soon to follow! It has a suspension dampened snack tray, gimbal mounted drink holder, and a built-in soda cooler! Not to forget the auto detecting auto recording boob scanning HD camera mount... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 5, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 5, 2018 ShhhhhhHhhhhHh Okay who spilled the beans about that secret feature to you? Was it Kevin? Felix? No, I bet it was Carl in marketing. Darn guy can't keep nary a secret! My patented Boob and Butt Evolutionary (BaBE) Tracking Technology will make face tracking a thing of the past! Mark my words! I have BIG plans!!! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adel Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 On 6/3/2018 at 6:46 AM, Jason McNeil said: The foot surface area on the V10F's pedals has set a new benchmark, nearly every other pedal design is on the range of barely-adequate to not-good-enough. On the day the Z10 arrived, it was moderately wet outside; taking on it's maiden spin, my foot slipped in the first 10 meters! It's surprising that EUC manufacturers to this day still can't get something as simple as pedals right. Even Inmotion which finally gave us proper size pedals (thank you) failed to put grip tape on them ! What is the explanation for this lack of attention to detail by EUC companies ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharged Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 14 minutes ago, Adel said: Even Inmotion which finally gave us proper size pedals (thank you) failed to put grip tape on them ! What is the explanation for this lack of attention to detail by EUC companies ? Maybe because some users find the soft rubber is adequate and more comfortable than hard pedals with grip tape, on a cruiser like V10F. In the case of V10F. It’s not very quick off the line, not very efficient braking, the tall body does not allow much wiggle room between legs for low speed nimbleness in crowded area. But it’s great cruising. Comfortable rubber pedals seems to be a good fit, for me at least. V10F reminds me just how nicely balanced V8 is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukasz Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 On 6/5/2018 at 5:05 PM, Turbocharged said: Maybe because some users find the soft rubber is adequate and more comfortable than hard pedals with grip tape, Rubber may be fine as long as it does not get wet - in the rain situation changes a lot - firm grip is essential for safety - so - I will never accept rubber on the pedals, many people will have to learn this lesson hard way by slipping/falling during the rain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoberAce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Tomorrow should be the day, that was the commitment acquired with the pre-buyers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasenutty Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 4 hours ago, RoberAce said: Tomorrow should be the day, that was the commitment acquired with the pre-buyers Why are they sending you a Monster instead of the Z? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, kasenutty said: Why are they sending you a Monster instead of the Z? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoberAce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Just now, ir_fuel said: yes yes, it's funny all the Chinese call it "Monster" all the time 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 We're all patiently waiting to see if it lives up to its name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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