Ninebot One Z : Z6-Z8-Z10

[Duf]

I have to admit the latest string of initial reviews is not making me very eager to plunk down $1500 for a Z.

 

[Scatcat]

22 minutes ago, Esper said:

Is there a way to aftermarket mod the Z10 to go from 57V to 82V?

Wellllll.... That would mean a new controller, new firmware, new battery packs adapted to the available space and the battery boards to go with them. Let's just say that would be almost as expensive as buying a new EUC. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Scatcat

[Scatcat]

Quite frankly, I have no idea what Nb/Segway was thinking of this time around using 58V for a 1800W wheel. While I understand they may want to get some certification or the other, they if any could probably get the certification authorities to reconsider their standards.

Resistive heating is basically dependent on the square of the current. So when pulling power with a change from 84V to 58V, you get a rough doubling of the heating effect. Resistance is of course interesting too, but as resistance goes up wattage and amperage goes down.

All that resistive heating has to go somewhere. Obviously, considering the overheating described, it doesn't do so in the best way possible.

As I said, what the f**k did they think would happen?!

[Esper]

Maybe I might skip out on this wheel after all...  I live in a really hilly area. It would be a huge problem for me.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Esper

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

  It kind of makes sense why Ninebot wasn't originally planning to distribute these outside of China.  It seems like the rest of the world with heavier riders demand higher performing wheels.  I still have some hope, but it's starting to get dashed.  I recall that early release video of the rider riding up the hill, but the Z gives up before it reaches the top.  Oh well, hopefully Gotway or one of the other manufacturers will release a Z-Clone or wide tire version of their own with 84-100V, 1600 Wh battery, and 60 KPH speeds which would blow the Z away.  If I were Gotway, I would get my designers on it as it just makes sense to release something to compete directly for this market share since they have a wheel in every other category and more at the moment.  Mten3, MsuperX, Telsa, ACMV2, MCM5, Monster, you name it.

Maybe call it the "Gotway ViperZ."    I know the perfect emblem to slap on it:

Give it a nice glossy red and black finish and sell a gazillion of them!  

Or maybe "Gotway Fatboy" and make it Batman matte black...

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Esash]

On 5/30/2018 at 8:44 PM, Marty Backe said:

Very interesting, and depressing 

I had a strong feeling this was going to be the case.  See if EWheels will let you switch your pre-order to a KS-18L, V10F, or MSuperX.

You could always pick up a Z6 for cheap and get the same form factor as the Z10 as a dink-around wheel with a unique ride experience.

[eddiemoy]

Seems like the Z will be a failure with all the bad reports from the beta testers. 

[Esash]

37 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

  Oh well, hopefully Gotway or one of the other manufacturers will release a Z-Clone or wide tire version of their own with 84-100V, 1600 Wh battery, and 60 KPH speeds which would blow the Z away.  If I were Gotway, I would get my designers on it as it just makes sense to release something to compete directly for this market share since they have a wheel in every other category and more at the moment.  Mten3, MsuperX, Telsa, ACMV2, MCM5, Monster, you name it.

Maybe call it the "Gotway ViperZ."    I know the perfect emblem to slap on it:

 

 

Gotway already competes directly for this market share, and blows Ninebot out of the freaking water.

The Ninebot Z looks more and more like a joke, and as the reviews come in their market share of the rugged offroad wheel market will shrivel up among discriminating enthusiast riders.

The first MSuper might be comparable to the Ninebot Z10, and the MSuper 3 and up appear to blow it out of the freaking water.

There's ultimately no need for a 4 inch fat wheel unless it has clear performance improvements over the 2.5" or 3" wheels.

 

Having said all that, if Gotway or King Song or InMotion experiment with a 4" fat wheel, I hope they don't go tubeless, which seems to defeat the whole purpose because that tubeless Z wheel is said to be rock hard and unforgiving on bumpy terrain.

I also hope the next company to try 4" fat goes with extremely high tire height, enabling great clearance and AMAZINGLY sharp turning ability

 

 

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Well, you never know still, and it could very well be perfectly fine for most urban uses.  Most people don't buy a Mercedes GLK to go off-roading 100% of the time.  They might do some light off-roading with it, but it's more for show and regular road usage.  The Ninebot Z may not pass the Marty Mountain Test^TM, but really how many people are going to do that?

As long as it can handle San Francisco type hills, it might be fine for that 99% of the population out there.  Do all wheels need to pass the extreme hill climb test to be a useful wheel or an enjoyable wheel?  Can the Mten3 climb a mountain?  I think we tend to think "off-road" and instinctively demand Landrover/Jeep/Hummer level of mountain climbing ability whereas maybe most people only need them to go from A to B and sometimes off-road a little to C which isn't 5000 feet up.

I say temper your expectations, and it still might be a "good enough" wheel for most people.  This ain't like laser eye surgery, ya know!  

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

3 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

There's ultimately no need for a 4 inch fat wheel unless it has clear performance improvements over the 2.5" or 3" wheels.

I wonder if they can source a softer rubber tire?  Motorcycles have suspension components, and we have legs.  These Tron cycles wouldn't be as cool with skinny tires I think:

Nor this Bat Pod Cycle:

[Esash]

I'm wondering if there are some major inherent shortcomings of the 4 inch fat wheel

4 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I wonder if they can source a softer rubber tire?  Motorcycles have suspension components, and we have legs.  These Tron cycles wouldn't be as cool with skinny tires I think:

Nor this Bat Pod Cycle:

If that wheel width performed better in the REAL world, we'd already see them in production. It's not like they don't look cooler than regular motorcycle wheels.  Without special effects, they'd probably be heavy, have terrible agility, drag down acceleration, slow braking, decrease fuel efficiency, and cost a lot more to replace.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Spinning all that extra mass is likely going to drain the battery a fair bit along with dealing with the rolling resistance.  Yet with the curved profile it might not be too bad and perform nice in fast curves just like super-bikes.  You don't see off-roading Hummers and Jeeps with skinny tires so they must be good for grip over irregular terrain better than regular ones.  I guess it's like 10 speed skinny bike tires versus mountain bike or fatbike tires.  Each excels in different areas, and there's going to be overlap.  For a one wheeled vehicle I still think it would appeal to a certain group of people, and I bet the ride would be pretty good off-roading.  Being able to plow over a bunch of rocks on a wide tire can't be under-estimated.  We'll see how things go once they release them to market.  It should be interesting to see how the 58.8 V thing pans out.  It probably will be okay, but not mind-blowingly awesome.  Some people are still good with that.  

Too bad they can't release a second version with 84V for the outside of China market.  I bet the engineers would have an easier time meeting expectations then.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Esash]

20 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Spinning all that extra mass is likely going to drain the battery a fair bit along with dealing with the rolling resistance.  Yet with the curved profile it might not be too bad and perform nice in fast curves just like super-bikes.  You don't see off-roading Hummers and Jeeps with skinny tires so they must be good for grip over irregular terrain better than regular ones.  I guess it's like 10 speed skinny bike tires versus mountain bike or fatbike tires.  Each excels in different areas, and there's going to be overlap.  For a one wheeled vehicle I still think it would appeal to a certain group of people, and I bet the ride would be pretty good off-roading.  Being able to plow over a bunch of rocks on a wide tire can't be under-estimated.  We'll see how things go once they release them to market.  It should be interesting to see how the 57 V thing pans out.  It probably will be okay, but not mind-blowingly awesome.  Some people are still good with that.  

Too bad they can't release a second version with 84V for the outside of China market.  I bet the engineers would have an easier time meeting expectations then.

Yeah I'm sure it's just a matter of time until somebody comes out with a 4" fat wheel that is really good at something. Maybe drag racing (setting top speed records "safely") or carrying 500 pound payloads.

Having extremely high torque at the expense of top speed would be another interesting approach, for plowing through sand, mud, and snow

 

[EUCMania]

According to beta testers' reviews, there are several good and weak points for Z series. However, I am more interested in those reviews with hard data and comparisons. Unfortunately, most of the reviews are just filled with a bunch flattering adjectives expressing opinions, not facts and data. I doubt whether those reviewers know how to write a lab report.

That being said, there are a few reports with some data and objectivity. TurboCharged being one of them.

TurboCharged's review points some of the problems, such as long braking distance, weak climbing power, overheating. Another reviewer in hilly region GuiZhou province rode Z up and down without mentioning of getting heat warnings. Others report the difficulty of maintaining direction when travelling perpendicular to a slope. Another reviewer gave this data set for speed/braking distance:

 

时速（km/h）	刹车距离（m）
20	2-3
30	4-8
35	7-10
40	12-15
45	15-20

@Turbocharged, please comment on these numbers.   I remember on this forum, there is a video showing ACM's braking distance. It would be interesting to do a comparison.

After I read all the reviews, I get the impression that 9b did not do their best before push Z out for beta test. Probably their developers were busy playing wechat in office ( one job interviewer wrote this ). One major promised advantage of Z over others is the shock absorb-ility promised by the fat tire, yet it did not deliver. Is it too hard to test various tires to make it work? Is it so hard to make the trolley handler internal? I can only conclude that 9b did not try hard enough.

Edited June 1, 2018 by EUCMania

[Esper]

I am still interested in what @Marty Backe has to say about the hill test. It will be the determinating factor for my purchase.

[Turbocharged]

3 hours ago, EUCMania said:

 I can only conclude that 9b did not try hard enough.

This is my opinion and I don’t know if this is actually the case, but anyway, unlike GotWay, KS or InMotion, Ninebot doesn’t rely on EUCs to make a living... They are aiming at AI and all other sorts of development that easily attracts fundings. As for their current product lines, kick scooters and Mini Pro/Plus are their money cows, EUC remains a niche market that isn’t as important. Z is just Ninebot, being a company that always trys to treat their fans well, trying to answer for fans’ request... Ninebot doesn’t even project a high volume of sales of Z... 

And, Z is not all bad... it’s a good daily commute wheel, relaxed, medium speed, just cruising, it’s not bad, given you don’t have to transit with subway or bus... it is HEAVY. Not to mention it would win all the beauty contest without mud guard and trolley handle installed. 

[Turbocharged]

2 hours ago, Esper said:

I am still interested in what @Marty Backe has to say about the hill test. It will be the determinating factor for my purchase.

If hill climbing is important to you, seriously, look elsewhere... I still like Z, but I believe it will fail miserably under Marty’s testing

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

I had a strong feeling this was going to be the case.  See if EWheels will let you switch your pre-order to a KS-18L, V10F, or MSuperX.

You could always pick up a Z6 for cheap and get the same form factor as the Z10 as a dink-around wheel with a unique ride experience.

I want to actually ride the wheel in my real-world conditions before forming an opinion. Looks like I get that chance within a couple of wheels. As of now I'm still buying one.

[EUCMania]

59 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I want to actually ride the wheel in my real-world conditions before forming an opinion. Looks like I get that chance within a couple of wheels. As of now I'm still buying one.

For @Marty Backe, buying a Z is not a problem. You have a bunch of EUC friends in CA eager to take it second hand. And, your photo line up of EUCs will be imperfect if without a 9B

Edited June 1, 2018 by EUCMania

[Turbocharged]

5 hours ago, EUCMania said:

时速（km/h）	刹车距离（m）
20	2-3
30	4-8
35	7-10
40	12-15
45	15-20

@Turbocharged, please comment on these numbers.   I remember on this forum, there is a video showing ACM's braking distance. It would be interesting to do a comparison.

I can’t really provide with meaningful numbers on braking distances. My friend Kuji could brake a V10F in roughly same distance as I can brake on a V8... and V8 is significantly better at acceleration and braking comparing to a V10F. I can only be sure that Z takes longer to stop than S2/V8/Tesla/ACM etc.

[mrelwood]

On 6/1/2018 at 12:47 PM, Turbocharged said:

I can only be sure that Z takes longer to stop than S2/V8/Tesla/ACM etc.

So, people used to braking fast with those wheels are going to fall on their backs on Z10?

[Turbocharged]

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

So, people used to braking fast with those wheels are going to fall on their backs on Z10?

No, you adjust your braking posture accordingly. Taking longer to stop, that's on the wheel, falling on your back, that's on you

[Scatcat]

I feel more and more disenchanted with the 9B-offering.

When I first saw it, it looked like the future:

• Wide tyre that could swallow bad terrain, curbs and pot-holes. That would be stable on slicker ground and provide stability at higher speeds.
• In-hub batteries, giving a reasonable amount of Watt-hours without making the thing even fatter.
• Superb design, with new large pedals, and tear-drop/batmobile shapes.
• Strong lights and in-case LEDs
• Reasonable speed and a strong motor.

It looked like 9B woke up from hibernation, looked around and said: "There's stuff to do! Let's show everybody who's your daddy!"

Since then we've come to know:

• The tyre is overly stiff, meaning we get no more cushion, but we do get directional instability in side-slopes.
• The voltage is ridiculously low, to appease some certification or the other.
• There are heat problems.
• The torque is nowhere near where it should be.
• The whole thing behaves like a slug compared to other contemporary wheels.

Still looks good though...

Edited June 3, 2018 by Scatcat

[mrelwood]

43 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

Still looks good though...

Well, the pedals were downgraded to basic ones...

1 hour ago, Turbocharged said:

No, you adjust your braking posture accordingly. Taking longer to stop, that's on the wheel, falling on your back, that's on you

I don't think you have thought very much about the physics of braking and accelerating on an EUC.

[Scatcat]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Well, the pedals were downgraded to basic ones...

I don't think you have thought very much about the physics of braking and accelerating on an EUC.

Yeah the new/old pedals are comparatively nothing but sh*t. Shorter, wider, squarish, giving room where none is needed, and none where it really counts.

I most certainly would be sitting on my fat arse the first time I REALLY needed to stop fast. Having come from a GT16 that may beep at you for using 80%+ percent of the power, but will still brake until you almost skid if you push it - I would probably overlean on a NBZ10 trying to stop fast enough.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Scatcat