Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[NErider]

2 hours ago, Eucner said:

This is good. It might not fit into all tight places. https://www.nord-lock.com/nord-lock/products/washers/

These are great. I was about to drop the same comment. Possibly overkill for an euc when you could use the purple low strength loc tite 222 and be fine.

I use Nord Locks on my Ultralight. It seems like all the weird personal transport vehicles merge together in communities. One wheels, EUC, and Ultralight aircrafts work really well together. 

[fbhb]

6 hours ago, litewave said:

Use a heat gun as demonstrated in several videos.

 

6 hours ago, Rawnei said:

They are near the batteries, not a fun place to use a heat gun, one option is to take the motor out but that's a lot of work if you just want to move those links.

Another method for removing screws where Loctite has been used, without risk to surrounding components, is to use a soldering iron held directly onto the screw itself.

Granted, it may take a little while longer, but it does actually work even if you have to set up a clamp to hold it to the screw head for a period of time based on the temperature your soldering iron is capable of achieving!

This is the method I used during the S18 Full strip down/suspension overhaul to loosen the abundant amount of Loctite King Song notoriously used with the suspension linkages of the S18.

Looks like in some cases, they have been just as careless with the amount of Loctite used on some of the S22's out there too (Will these EUC manufacturers ever learn )! 

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, fbhb said:

This is the method I used during the S18 Full strip down/suspension overhaul to loosen the abundant amount of Loctite King Song notoriously used with the suspension linkages of the S18.

Wow, you spent serious effort in your S18. Nice work.

Interesting that Kingsong had fabricated an enclosed fender for the S18, but not for the S22, even though the former has a closed slider system, the the latter has a open slider system. 

[supercurio]

I found this video which explains really well how the oil dampening of a shock can be designed.
Brilliant how it can handle low and high velocities differently.

Now I understand why some shocks are more expensive than others 

 

[supercurio]

Just checking: the front rubber thingies on the S22 suspension are not doing anything, correct? Since both front suspension channels are simply open at the top, with only the trolley handle above.

The rear however seem like it would hit this arch that looks pretty strong, I guess for this purpose.

 

Then why are the rubber thingies on the front rails as well? Is it in an attempt to clean up dirt before the slider blocks would grind on it?
Is it to avoid an imbalance by having as much friction on the front and rear sliders?

Or can these simply be removed to reduce by half the friction these rubber thingies introduce in the system?

[Rawnei]

23 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Just checking: the front rubber thingies on the S22 suspension are not doing anything, correct? Since both front suspension channels are simply open at the top, with only the trolley handle above.

The rear however seem like it would hit this arch that looks pretty strong, I guess for this purpose.

 

Then why are the rubber thingies on the front rails as well? Is it in an attempt to clean up dirt before the slider blocks would grind on it?
Is it to avoid an imbalance by having as much friction on the front and rear sliders?

Or can these simply be removed to reduce by half the friction these rubber thingies introduce in the system?

They are there to clean dirt nothing else.

But if removing them should replace with dirt ingress protectors.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Rawnei

[fbhb]

10 hours ago, Rawnei said:

They are there to clean dirt nothing else.

@Rawnei is correct, as they are King Song's poor attempt to act as scrapers for ejecting dirt, but ONLY add stiction.

You will achieve a much smoother suspension action after removing and discarding the 4 rubbers, using a good dry lubricant and some form of slider protection method.

You will have seen multiple options coming out of the Russian S22 community, that can easily be 3D printed.

I recently saw a different approach by Pasha Yun from Ecodrift, which is currently in testing phase that uses grease trapped around each slider by 3D printed seals/scrapers fitted to the top and bottom of each slider rail.

Will edit this post with a photo, if I can get a clear enough image of how it All works!

Edited to include photos & a video:

The mid section of the "T" bar is fitted with a filler to accommodate a small pocket of grease, once assembled with the seals and scrapers attached via screws to each end of the the "T" bar.

These photos show All the component parts involved, but were taken from a screenshot of the Russian S22 Telegram group, so not as clear as I would like.

The video gives a brief glimpse into how the grease is trapped between each end of each slider, with the wiper cleaning away any dust above or below the rails!

If one of the other methods, i.e. the Flexible dust protectors were to be combined with this design by Pasha Yun, IMO I believe this to be close to as good as King Song's sliders can be made to function currently (ONLY needing 3D printed parts without the need for CNC machining etc.) with minimal stiction and protection from dirt/dust ingress!

Edited August 6, 2022 by fbhb

[Rawnei]

I'm working on something as well, stay tuned. 😉

[Elliott Reitz]

On 8/5/2022 at 2:29 PM, supercurio said:

Just checking: the front rubber thingies on the S22 suspension are not doing anything, correct? Since both front suspension channels are simply open at the top, with only the trolley handle above.

The rear however seem like it would hit this arch that looks pretty strong, I guess for this purpose.

 

Then why are the rubber thingies on the front rails as well? Is it in an attempt to clean up dirt before the slider blocks would grind on it?
Is it to avoid an imbalance by having as much friction on the front and rear sliders?

Or can these simply be removed to reduce by half the friction these rubber thingies introduce in the system?

I managed to remove 3 our of 4 on my working S22 from Alien Rides.  The dead S22 from eWheels has them gone and slides easiest because it was never greased (just 3 in 1 oiled).  eWheels said they have a couple containers going through customs with 40T cells to trade for the dead one.  

Anyway, I don't see a need for them at all.  The only add friction and the shock itself has a bottom-out grommet on it.  The one time I did bottom out the fender got stuck on the right side high up in the channel... snapped back when I stopped and wiggled it.  

 

On 8/5/2022 at 2:52 PM, Rawnei said:

They are there to clean dirt nothing else.

But if removing them should replace with dirt ingress protectors.

When I rode through sand with those things in place they filled the grease with sand and became very high friction.  I used half a can of WD40 with paper-towels and a rod to clean out the channels (high and low with one end of the shock removed).  Finally they move freely now (and no I'm not using those POS things.

The solution will be a better fender (wire guide) design - because the only good the fender actually does is protect the wire from getting caught in the wheel-knobs.  I've also proven to self that both S20/S22 and S18 rear shock blocks all of the water I get from riding through long-deep puddles or in the rain.  And I'm not worried about wearing out the shock-seals because I find the damping (compression and return valves) to be unnecessary.  All I need is the spring and my legs naturally dampen the spring action anyway.  Even with the 350 lbs spring, the slider friction interferes with the small-bump action and I've yet to see it "bounce" from anything.  

[dycus]

I have nothing to back this up, but I think having rebound damping would help reduce/prevent death wobbles. Or rather, that they might be exacerbated if there is no rebound damping on a suspension wheel.

[Elliott Reitz]

2 minutes ago, dycus said:

I have nothing to back this up, but I think having rebound damping would help reduce/prevent death wobbles. Or rather, that they might be exacerbated if there is no rebound damping on a suspension wheel.

I managed to stay on during the most violent wobble I've yet seen on my MSX-100V.  I was going 30 mph seated and stood into a crouch when the wobble began.  I instinctive slowed to about 20 mph but it was still hitting my theighs with the seat (6" bruises).  At that point I knew that I could stand into it with right leg plant and left leg out while going left away from the curb. 
 

The big ah-ha I got from it was a speed vs stance issue.  Like a stance with both feet away from the wheel is great for tight maneuvering at slow speed.  But going fast its important to have a leg-side damper to wobbles at all times.  That makes the tilt-hip steering not work so well over 30mph.  That's where the "ass" steering really becomes important.  Funny after figuring that out I used it this weekend on the A1 riding at Spiedie Fest.    Here's that vid (add something coloful to the thread.

 

[Forwardnbak]

Man i hope this all pans out well.

Off to collect mine today, Pirelli fitted and charged up thanks to dealer. I’ll attempt to roll home from the dealer a good 20km and film. 

 

Cool 

[mrelwood]

I got to try two S22 units today, one with stock suspension, one with the roller sliders. I never considered the S22 for myself, but I do like to know how each wheel rides and feels.

 First of all, this thing is wide like riding a full-sized hog. It’s mental how wide it is. If you like narrow wheels such as Inmotions, steer far away. The top end of the shell is indeed sharp, and equally as wide. Not at all great for comfort.

I hated the stock tire. I’ve had my share of knobbies along the way, and this had the worst turning feel of them all. It just turns so slowly, and slightly unpredictably. The other unit had a more common style mixed purpose tire, and it behaved so much better. Like night & day better.

 The suspension wasn’t a disappointment, since I knew what to expect. It doesn’t do much at all on small bumps, and only seems to activate on larger bumps like curbs etc. This made the behavior jarring and a bit erratic. I weigh 108kg, so I know the spring wasn’t too tight for me. We also adjusted the shock to the softest with fastest rebound, but just like with the S18, the shock action is hindered by external friction so the shock adjustments don’t do much.

 The second unit had the slider blocks replaced with rollers. Not a night and day difference mind you, but still an absolute must if you want the suspension to actually work as designed. A great upgrade. It wasn’t at all floaty, but riding the same route showed clear differences, especially on bumpy grass. Although, I rode an overhauled S18 last year, and I think it worked much better than the S22 with the roller rails.

I didn’t accelerate hard since I was so uncomfortable on the S22, but overall the acceleration response felt like a Sherman. This is a very big wheel that can be modified to be a very comfy cruiser. It’s size and sense of weight makes me think that it wouldn’t work well on technical off-road.

 

1 hour ago, dycus said:

I have nothing to back this up, but I think having rebound damping would help reduce/prevent death wobbles.

I can’t see how. I don’t think there’s any up-down movement worth mentioning during wobbles.

 

[supercurio]

3 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I managed to remove 3 our of 4 on my working S22 from Alien Rides.  The dead S22 from eWheels has them gone and slides easiest because it was never greased (just 3 in 1 oiled).  eWheels said they have a couple containers going through customs with 40T cells to trade for the dead one.  

Anyway, I don't see a need for them at all.  The only add friction and the shock itself has a bottom-out grommet on it.  The one time I did bottom out the fender got stuck on the right side high up in the channel... snapped back when I stopped and wiggled it.

You're right, I misunderstood earlier.
I removed the shock just earlier to replace the spring tomorrow (750 lbs down to 550 lbs) and when the suspension is fully compressed, these rubber thingies are still in the rails and don't do anything else than blocking & collecting some of the dirt while adding tons of friction.

Mine will be gone too for sure!

[techyiam]

17 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

First of all, this thing is wide like riding a full-sized hog. It’s mental how wide it is.

When I first got on it, I thought it was crazy wide. I know some peopie won't mind, but there will be many complaints to be sure. 

21 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

It doesn’t do much at all on small bumps, and only seems to activate on larger bumps like curbs etc. This made the behavior jarring and a bit erratic. I weigh 108kg, so I know the spring wasn’t too tight for me. We also adjusted the shock to the softest with fastest rebound, but just like with the S18, the shock action is hindered by external friction so the shock adjustments don’t do much.

Thank you for the confirmation that stiction in the sliders is high. There are those that claim the sliders are fine, but goes to great lengths to reduce stiction and foreign debris ingress. Action speaks louder than words.

 

Too bad you were not able to test low speed  acceleration. 

[dycus]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I can’t see how. I don’t think there’s any up-down movement worth mentioning during wobbles.

My thinking is that the wheel quickly wobbles side-to-side while the rider's mass stays relatively centered and unmoving. So the suspension compresses when the wheel goes under the rider, and decompresses as it goes left or right. This seems like it would contribute to instability. With rebound damping, the spring wouldn't decompress quickly enough to put more energy into the wobbling.

Like I said, just speculating, no evidence to back it up.

 

[Rawnei]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I didn’t accelerate hard since I was so uncomfortable on the S22, but overall the acceleration response felt like a Sherman. This is a very big wheel that can be modified to be a very comfy cruiser. It’s size and sense of weight makes me think that it wouldn’t work well on technical off-road.

Just like Sherman or Sherman Max this wheel works just fine on technical off-road, weight is something you get used to after a while and it feels like any other wheel in that regard, I think you were just out of your comfort zone that's all.

To me coming from Sherman Max S22 feels like a very playful wheel I can do lots of fun technical things on it.

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Too bad you were not able to test low speed  acceleration. 

I only accelerated as fast as I usually do, which is not much by today’s standards. Accelerating fast is a lighter riders’ hobby. For regular semi-cool accelerations the power delivery was fine.

1 hour ago, dycus said:

My thinking is that the wheel quickly wobbles side-to-side

This is only my suspicion, but I don’t think there is as much of a tilt element (roll left-right) to a wobble as there is a vibration through the yaw axis. Nearing the end of a death wobble the pedals do seem to go up and down some, but if suspension played a role here, I think we should see a difference in wobbles between suspension and non-suspension wheels. I have wobbled on both.

19 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Just like Sherman or Sherman Max this wheel works just fine on technical off-road

I’m probably thinking even lower speed and even more technical aspects than you. The kinds that even the V11 is a bit big for. Sub walking speed, trials style.

19 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

weight is something you get used to after a while and it feels like any other wheel in that regard, I think you were just out of your comfort zone that's all.

The test ride was short, so absolutely I was out of my comfort zone. Every aspect of the test was done in reference to my V11 and to how I see the V11 compared to all the other wheels I’ve tried. You can get used to every single aspect of any EUC, but that doesn’t make it a good or a suitable feature. You know, people get used to even an abusing partner.

None of that diminishes the unique S22 features though. No matter how well you get used to the S22, it’s still much wider than any other wheel I’ve ridden, and it’s still much slower and lazier to react to tiny steering and acceleration/braking commands compared to the RS/V11 size class of wheels. Or even the Sherman. Yes you can use it for sub-walking speed technical trials-style riding, but it definitely does not excel. For cruising at more uniform speeds though, it does excel as long as you do get used to the unique width.

19 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

To me coming from Sherman Max S22 feels like a very playful wheel I can do lots of fun technical things on it.

No doubt. One can have very different reference points.

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I’m probably thinking even lower speed and even more technical aspects than you. The kinds that even the V11 is a bit big for. Sub walking speed, trials style.

That's what we do around here in Stockholm, perhaps you have seen videos from @Mike Sacristan (isthereanyfood) when he/we play around in the forests on rocks and roots.

The other day 3 of us was out in pitch black forest at night on that kind of terrain, S22, 16x and Sherman Max and had a hell of a fun time.

I'm not saying heavy wheel is as nimble as light wheel but it's not impossible or even bad to do those things on a heavy wheel, (enough) torque is more important.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Rawnei

[Forwardnbak]

feels good! 38km and just starting to flow with it. 

Made me smile 

[Forwardnbak]

[litewave]

On 8/8/2022 at 8:05 AM, Forwardnbak said:

Do you have the Grizzla "BIG" or regular size pads? 

Looking forward to your first impressions!

Update: @NErider pointed out that the "BIG" pads have the quick release button to remove/replace the toe.

Edited August 9, 2022 by litewave

[Rehab1]

On 8/5/2022 at 1:12 AM, fbhb said:

Another method for removing screws where Loctite has been used, without risk to surrounding components, is to use a soldering iron held directly onto the screw itself.

I agree. Worked for me on my S18 rebuild. I  made a stand to hold the iron in place as the Loctite softening process takes some time. 

 

[techyiam]

19 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

I agree. Worked for me on my S18 rebuild. I  made a stand to hold the iron in place as the Loctite softening process takes some time. 

I would call that a soldering pencil. But it is good to know that is all it took. People usually use a much more powerful soldering iron.

[Tawpie]

There's always a bigger hammer!