Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[wstuart]

28 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Can this break KingSong? :-( They haven’t announced a new wheel for almost a year now… 

I wondered that too

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, daniel1234 said:

We have one s22 with same problem in Brno czech republic from first batch -> it went to reseller for repair. It sucks that is so hard to take motor apart - there will be just some mess around magnets. Clinging noise slowly getting worse - rider rather stopped riding wheel. 

Thanks for the details. I wonder if there was also metallic dirt it my motor as shown in the Kingsong video, or if the issue was different.

Could the debris cause small vibrations at low/no speed self balancing, or is it something else? I wonder if @Forwardnbak you have these vibrations too.

Maybe there are multiple separate issues at play.

Then about the noise, they can be hard to diagnose since they're intermittent and can go away. For very first symptoms I naively thought it was the tire (kind of wobbly, oscillating at speed, needed to be reseated) and fender, the sound coming from inside the motor didn't cross my mind.

So it's good that we talk about this clearly common issue here so owners can easily identify it instead of dismissing it as something else.

In my case, even if the motor would have been fixable by basic cleaning (not convinced atm), I was only trying to capture a better video to send to support without risking crashing - anticipating the whole thing could fail, thinking my first videos were not very good and the sound could be mistaken for something else (rock, fender).

So yeah what can happen is kind of scary. I can totally imagine someone riding instead of walking back from far away after noticing that bad sound, and eating it.

Edited August 15, 2022 by supercurio

[daniel1234]

57 minutes ago, supercurio said:

So yeah what can happen is kind of scary. I can totally imagine someone riding instead of walking back from far away after noticing that bad sound, and eating it.

Exactly - Guys be careful. You can ride with busted bearing several hundred kilometers. But if you hear repeating clinging I recommend walking wheel home!

Wheel need to spin without any sound and any resistance when turned NOT on. I would not even attempt that free spin test (I understand what you tired - good you have it on video !)  - if there is something wrong with motor it will  jam burn at max RPM.

 

[supercurio]

6 minutes ago, daniel1234 said:

I would not even attempt that free spin test (I understand what you tired - good you have it on video !)  - if there is something wrong with motor it will  jam burn at max RPM.

Agree not worth it, there's no need to risk burning the mainboard as well.
BTW high RPM in the video I shared was not intentional, it just happened when I lifted the wheel before I had a chance to balance it well.

Talking in the EN telegram group now, there's @Forwardnbak having the issue, another rider Keith S just the same.
Following the reports here, this is a widespread issue, for sure.

[Miko.cz]

 

I have extracted noise from my motor on ride. Especially at the end of this record it could be heard. Its from cam attached to the side of EUC, so everything related is very noisy and not very high sound quality.

[supercurio]

35 minutes ago, Miko.cz said:

I have extracted noise from my motor on ride. Especially at the end of this record it could be heard. Its from cam attached to the side of EUC, so everything related is very noisy and not very high sound quality.

The audio quality is limited due to resampling aliasing in this example which makes hearing for issues difficult, maybe you can try recording with another device?

Still it reminded me of what I captured during my first ride: that was a lot of noises and vibrations.
To be confirmed with another recording but yes it seems like your motor has the knocking sound as well.

During acceleration, it hits various resonant frequencies.

 

On that one, the coil noise of this (now burned) controller is clearly audible on top of the vibrations when braking especially.

 

On hard braking, the resonances would be amplified in the whole thing which didn't feel good at all.

 

I was able to reduce some of the resonances by securing the beeper with some silicon. That's how attach mine was out of the box

 

 

I don't know if the vibrations were precursors for the motor issues, but it's possible. I recall that e-Rides's S22 had that too, then the knocking sound and they had to replace the motor.
Before that e-rides had vibrating motor as seen here:

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by supercurio

[NErider]

4 hours ago, That Guy said:

Can this break KingSong? :-( They haven’t announced a new wheel for almost a year now… 

They probably can't "release" a new wheel seeing how they can barely deliver one they released over a year ago. 

Imagine having a 14 month pre-order, then paying in full, and still waiting weeks for delivery. Then a few days later the NEW IMPROVED revamped model is leaked in a video before you ever received the original at all. 

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, NErider said:

They probably can't "release" a new wheel seeing how they can barely deliver one they released over a year ago.

Perhaps you are giving Kingsong too much credit. You are basically implying that Kingsong may have a new wheel in the wings to release.

Given Kingsong seemed to have learnt nothing from their experience with the S18 product release, their abilities to innovate and execute are in serios doubt.

[Rollin-on-1]

38 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Perhaps you are giving Kingsong too much credit. You are basically implying that Kingsong may have a new wheel in the wings to release.

WW talked about the S20 and S16 at the same time in the spring 2021.  I think the S16 is probably quite far along in development. But I don't expect KS to announce it until they have the S22 issues better under control.  I wish KS would tell us the specs on the S16 though.  I am am looking for a 16x upgrade with good suspension and higher speed.  Maybe it will be the T4, but I'd like to see what KS and possibly Leaperkim have to offer. 

[Tawpie]

Has anyone gotten an S22 tracking number from eWheels yet? 

[Miko.cz]

2 hours ago, supercurio said:

The audio quality is limited due to resampling aliasing in this example which makes hearing for issues difficult, maybe you can try recording with another device?

Not possible, its already at reseller.
But it differs from your videos - mine sound was like a hitting rail with some iron, no vibrations or quick sounds.
As I promised, I will report later.

[wstuart]

14 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Has anyone gotten an S22 tracking number from eWheels yet? 

Last night Jason replied to my email saying they will be shipping out by the end of the week.

[wstuart]

I'm trying to talk myself into sticking with my pre-order but it's getting harder and harder as these posts come in.  Here is my current story I use to try to fool myself into buying one of these.

 

So far, most of the failures have not been like the abrahms or v12, where you get dumped on your face out of the blue.  It seems like there is something mechanical going on that we can that is then causing mosfets to blow.  This seems like sort of a safer first batch issue, then having a firmware or electronic issue that will cutout with no warning.

My remaining concerns are that the numbers appear to be high, even if I don't know how many total are working fine.  Is this a 20% failure rate?? 30%?? Does Kingsong have the resources to fix this, or am I just gonna be S.O.L like the poor Abrahms owners.

 

[Tawpie]

22 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Is this a 20% failure rate?? 30%??

We'll never really know. We don't know the denominator, and I'd bet most people do NOT report failures in the public spaces… enthusiasts yes, regular folk probably not. Besides, self reported data is fundamentally tainted.

Distributors could help but obviously they're slammed, plus they may not be able to (or want to) share their delivery and repair histories.

My sense is that motherboard failures are in the 1-in-10 range, motor noises are less common but "they're at the first turn and Motors is making a move".

Edited August 15, 2022 by Tawpie

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

WW talked about the S20 and S16 at the same time in the spring 2021.  I think the S16 is probably quite far along in development. But I don't expect KS to announce it until they have the S22 issues better under control.  I wish KS would tell us the specs on the S16 though.  I am am looking for a 16x upgrade with good suspension and higher speed.  Maybe it will be the T4, but I'd like to see what KS and possibly Leaperkim have to offer. 

You are quite right about the rumor about a S16 that was mentioned in Wrongway's looking ahead 2021 video. The S20 was really the main rumor in that video.. The only tidbit that was shared was that the S16 was to have an exciting Star War themed exterior styling. Unfortunately, it has been radio silence since. Not even a word from @Jack ex-KS .  On hindsight, we see that even for the S22, it was primarily a rendering exercise at that point. When pressed, they used smoke and mirrors to mislead us into thinking that they were further along in development. So good luck to those who are still waiting for the S16. And even if the S16 do come out one day, I don't anticipate that it will be competitive in technological advancement nor in QC. I am having a hard time believing that Kingsong are capable of simultaneous multi-models development. The S18, and the S20/22 are proof that Kingsong can hardly manage one. Now, if we are talking about Begode, that is a whole different story.

Edited August 15, 2022 by techyiam

[chanman]

27 minutes ago, techyiam said:

 Now, if we are talking about Begode, that is a whole different story.

Let's not give Begode more credit than they're due. They developed exactly one model, and then decided they could also put it on a 12" and 17" rim, adjusting the battery configuration some.

Edited August 15, 2022 by chanman

[kolmastoista]

Hi,

Just to contribute to this thread. I got my S22 demo wheel on june and it has been functioning just perfectly, no hiccups of any kind. I have driven it for around 750km. I haven't crashed or done the V12 stress test to it (and not planning to do it either). I'll continue to drive it pretty confidently since it has been good to me so far :)

[techyiam]

39 minutes ago, chanman said:

Let's not give Begode more credit than they're due. They developed exactly one model, and then decided they could also put it on a 12" and 17" rim, adjusting the battery configuration some.

True, but they intelligently mixed and matched their metal suspension chassis with existing parts to actually come out with the Master, T4, and Master Pro in a timely manner to cover three classes. This is just brilliant, and showed what they are capable of.. The customer gets more choices, and they get to amortized their investment over more units. If they were willing to come out with one more model below the T4, it would have quiet down the complaints even more. But it probably won't make good business sense, otherwise they would have done it.

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by techyiam

[wstuart]

35 minutes ago, techyiam said:

True, but they intelligently mixed and matched their metal suspension chassis with existing parts to actually come out with the Master, T4, and Master Pro in a timely manner to cover three classes. This is just brilliant, and showed what they are capable of.. The customer gets more choices, and they get to amortized their investment over more units. If they were willing to come out with one more model below the T4, it would have quiet down the complaints even more. But it probably won't make good business sense, otherwise they would have done it.

 

 

 

I agree.  I give Begode lots of credit here.  Just look at their 100v board and c30/c38 motor.  They perfected that hardware and now any new wheel that uses it is instantaneously a known reliable quantity (Hero, T4, Ex20, Exn).  You now worry way less about Begode 100v wheels even if they aren't out yet.

In contrast, if you buy a v13 or an s22 you've gotta cross your fingers and hope that their all new board and motor work.

 

This is why I'm so tempted to get a T4.  I already know that it's gonna feel just like my amazing MSP HT, just with suspension.  It takes alot of mystery and chance out of the purchase........ unfortunately they make their battery case out of PEZ dispensers, so some of the mystery comes back in....

Edited August 15, 2022 by wstuart

[Tawpie]

48 minutes ago, techyiam said:

mixed and matched their metal suspension chassis with existing parts to actually come out with the Master, T4, and Master Pro in a timely manner to cover three classes. This is just brilliant.

And it comes with what I call the "platform tax". Meaning: a multi-purpose design means you are forced to compromise to maintain compatibility. One size has a difficult time really fitting all... at least fitting "well".

"Purpose built" or optimized designs are much more expensive in both time and R&D because you're tailoring each product for its own intended use case. S22 wanted a less expensive and easier-to-assemble slider system with much longer throw. And a new motor, higher voltage everything, sensorless, cell monitoring BMS, more battery etc. etc. so they had little choice but to do a clean sheet of paper design. If they can figure out the el-cheapo suspension sliders (which is starting to look like it might be easier to fix than we thought), I expect a scaled version to show up with a 16" tire sooner than later.

You can make a pretty nice cube out of legos if you don't mind the holes in the bottom, the things sticking out the top, and quantum options for its dimensions. Provided you don't mind jaggedy edges, legos can also be used to build a reasonably functional ball… not so good for hitting or kicking or bouncing but it should throw ok and it (might) roll!

I do wonder if the platform tax is why Master has the small suspension travel it has… perhaps it is sharing its sliders with T4 and the Master's larger tire meant Master has to accept less travel because T4 can't get any taller due to weight/balance/size considerations. Having a chassis and suspension in T4 that is shared with Master Pro sounds sweet, but the weight penalty is real.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Tawpie

[techyiam]

12 minutes ago, wstuart said:

I already know that it's gonna feel just like my amazing MSP HT

That is the one thing I don't believe to be the case. The culprit is the motor. I don't think it is the 14" rim motor. I think it the 12" rim motor from the T3. But if I am wrong, then the T4 would be an incredible value.

[techyiam]

15 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

And it comes with what I call the "platform tax". Meaning: a multi-purpose design means you are forced to compromise to maintain compatibility. One size has a difficult time really fitting all... at least fitting "well".

Perhaps. But it goes both ways. Sometimes the lower model can get a more premium feature or specs than it would otherwise. But for these wheels, we have to wait and see how they ride. It is really too early to tell.

21 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I do wonder if the platform tax is why Master has the small suspension travel it has… perhaps it is sharing its sliders with T4 and the Master's larger tire meant Master has to accept less travel because T4 can't get any taller due to weight/balance/size considerations.

Before we worry about that, I think the bigger issue is that their suspension guy needs to figure out how to design links that can use the full stroke of the shock first.

[wstuart]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

That is the one thing I don't believe to be the case. The culprit is the motor. I don't think it is the 14" rim motor. I think it the 12" rim motor from the T3. But if I am wrong, then the T4 would be an incredible value.

Oh I didnt know that - thanks!

[That Guy]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

You are quite right about the rumor about a S16 that was mentioned in Wrongway's looking ahead 2021 video. The S20 was really the main rumor in that video.. The only tidbit that was shared was that the S16 was to have an exciting Star War themed exterior styling. Unfortunately, it has been radio silence since. Not even a word from @Jack ex-KS .  On hindsight, we see that even for the S22, it was primarily a rendering exercise at that point. When pressed, they used smoke and mirrors to mislead us into thinking that they were further along in development. So good luck to those who are still waiting for the S16. And even if the S16 do come out one day, I don't anticipate that it will be competitive in technological advancement nor in QC. I am having a hard time believing that Kingsong are capable of simultaneous multi-models development. The S18, and the S20/22 are proof that Kingsong can hardly manage one. Now, if we are talking about Begode, that is a whole different story.

If I were in KS strategy department I would drive an urgent R&D turn towards reinvention of KS16x. Don't even try to change the interior like adding suspension or screen or even changing the voltage (no, 84V is not embarrassing, it works for 16") - just weather proofing, better brighter front and back lights and matt-black plastic finishing with sharper edges...

The longer they have no alternative for people to talk about they are keep on being associated with the disaster in progress.

[techyiam]

38 minutes ago, That Guy said:

If I were in KS strategy department I would drive an urgent R&D turn towards reinvention of KS16x. Don't even try to change the interior like adding suspension or screen or even changing the voltage (no, 84V is not embarrassing, it works for 16") - just weather proofing, better brighter front and back lights and matt-black plastic finishing with sharper edges...

The longer they have no alternative for people to talk about they are keep on being associated with the disaster in progress.

That makes sense. They need to refresh their bread and butter wheel. A small investment that may create some electricity for the Kingsong brand.

Edited August 15, 2022 by techyiam