Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, That Guy said:

the disaster in progress.

Be merciful, don't add to my anxiety! 

It's not a smooth initial rollout, that's certain. I hope against hope it's not a disaster in progress.

It is funny that you can actually fix a clicking noise in the motor by loosening the motor cover screws, bang it firmly with a rubber hammer, and retighten. What ever in the world is that actually supposed to do? Cathartic I get, it has worked for at least one rider, and KS even sent a video of the process. But really? There's more magic in this thing than I thought.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Tawpie

[That Guy]

Yeah, my bad, there's no need to add dramatic words here, sorry.

[Rollin-on-1]

2 hours ago, That Guy said:

If I were in KS strategy department I would drive an urgent R&D turn towards reinvention of KS16x. Don't even try to change the interior like adding suspension or screen or even changing the voltage (no, 84V is not embarrassing, it works for 16") - just weather proofing, better brighter front and back lights and matt-black plastic finishing with sharper edges...

The longer they have no alternative for people to talk about they are keep on being associated with the disaster in progress.

I love my 16x.  It is a very special wheel.  However, it needs a higher top speed.  If it gets a refresh, It has to compete the V12, Nik +, and now the T4 in terms of performance and reliability.  Suspension is the future, and I think it would be a mistake to refresh the 16x without it.  KS can iterate the 16s to keep a non-suspension 16" wheel in the lineup.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

I hope against hope it's not a disaster in progress.

If I were you, I would not perform the V12 stress test for kicks. 

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

it has worked for at least one rider, and KS even sent a video of the process.

This reminds me of the CRT TV days, when the scrambled picture in a TV can be improved by a swift thump on the top of the TV.

 

[wstuart]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Be merciful, don't add to my anxiety! 

It's not a smooth initial rollout, that's certain. I hope against hope it's not a disaster in progress.

It is funny that you can actually fix a clicking noise in the motor by loosening the motor cover screws, bang it firmly with a rubber hammer, and retighten. What ever in the world is that actually supposed to do? Cathartic I get, it has worked for at least one rider, and KS even sent a video of the process. But really? There's more magic in this thing than I thought.

So I ride a begode EX that had motor bearing issues - as many did.  Every 6th ride or so I get a knocking sound kind of like the ones in these s22 videos (not as bad though).  EX owners have come up with a myriad of ways to make the knocking go away.  Some guys pull over and yank on the tire to make the bearing re-seat in the cover, other carve rapidly at low speed.  I've found if I ride around in circles going to the left, the sound goes away.  Apparently the bearing is just a tiny bit loose in the cover which causes something in the motor to click (I was told a magnet hitting the motor cover).  Even more interesting we - we can make the clicking sound come and go....

So the idea that a clicking sound would go away with banging on a motor cover does not seem strange to me at all.  

Edited August 16, 2022 by wstuart

[Forwardnbak]

i guess i kind of don’t see s22 as a first release, to me the s20 was the first release. They got feedback, they went silent, sent them out with a statement “all was fixed”

I trusted the “all is fixed” because I’d heard of great service of KS brand. 

Then i watched as they landed the production models and sure a few died, I thought was QC, then i kept seeing many, nearly every time i logged into any group someone had errors.

To me i’m not sure if i trust the wheel now. 

I had mine 4 days after a long wait. I’m seeing if my dealer will return and shift to v13. Happy to wait again, and try a first batch again if i can. 

I feel i gave KS a long time and a good chance but I might try and swing back to Inmotion while i may have a shot. 

I did really start to like the wheel. Still have 2 videos to upload that i shot and both were fun. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Forwardnbak

[That Guy]

22 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

i guess i kind of don’t see s22 as a first release, to me the s20 was the first release. They got feedback, they went silent, sent them out with a statement “all was fixed”

I trusted the “all is fixed” because I’d heard of great service of KS brand. 

Then i watched as they landed the production models and sure a few died, I thought was QC, then i kept seeing many, nearly every time i logged into any group someone had errors.

To me i’m not sure if i trust the wheel now. 

I had mine 4 days after a long wait. I’m seeing if my dealer will return and shift to v13. Happy to wait again, and try a first batch again if i can. 

I feel i gave KS a long time and a good chance but I might try and swing back to Inmotion while i may have a shot. 

I did really start to like the wheel. Still have 2 videos to upload that i shot and both were fun. 

Hmm... I am not sure I would trust InMotion that easily just in the light of the V12 failures. Neither I would trust Leaperkim with their own V13 (I mean the Abrams). I would not trust Begode, too, just based on how many corners they have been normally cutting and where things will go wrong (although they are suddenly good guys now on the background of the mess with everybody's else first batches). Ah, and I wouldn't trust Extreme Bull designers either because they don't know "cooling"... The only mob that is left is... Oh, there is no one left to trust... Sucks...

Maybe "stick around" and with a little bit extra patience it will be a great long-term reliable wheel when they finally fix it all?

[Tawpie]

It's a really tough call. In this niche, users get to discover all that isn't quite right.

Sure, I wish it was different. Yes, by all rights the manufacturers should be better than this. 100% I'm very nervous and somewhat concerned about my as-yet-undelivered batch1 wheel. No, I won't trust it out of the box, it (like all my wheels) will have to earn trust over time. Yes, I'll absolutely gear up, and try to have fun. And have alternate plans for if/when the wheel decides it's time for me to walk. (how can I put that thing on the better half's e-bike… would a travois work to drag it back to the car? Be sure to pack tools to allow me to disconnect the motor wires)

41 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

I’m seeing if my dealer will return and shift to v13

You have to do what feels right to you. But the way things seem to be, it's just another turn at the craps table with 3 or 4 thousand on orange 13 instead of red 22. Think about all of the new releases—16X water issues, V11 bearings, GW 900 wH batteries, V12 MOSFETs, MSuper water issues, Sherman rims, S18 suspension assembly, RS bearings, EX.N cooling, Abrams mystery cutouts, Hero runs away from under you, Commander cooling, Sherman Bt Lou, Master battery configuration, XMen frame welding, GW/BG general fragility… as a player, the odds with batch1 are not in your favor.

That list is really bumming me out. And it's not even complete.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Tawpie

[Forwardnbak]

15 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

It's a really tough call. In this niche, users get to discover all that isn't quite right.

Sure, I wish it was different. Yes, by all rights the manufacturers should be better than this. 100% I'm very nervous and somewhat concerned about my as-yet-undelivered batch1 wheel. No, I won't trust it out of the box, it (like all my wheels) will have to earn trust over time. Yes, I'll absolutely gear up, and try to have fun. And have alternate plans for if/when the wheel decides it's time for me to walk. (how can I put that thing on the better half's e-bike… would a travois work to drag it back to the car? Be sure to pack tools to allow me to disconnect the motor wires)

You have to do what feels right to you. But the way things seem to be, it's just another turn at the craps table with 3 or 4 thousand on orange 13 instead of red 22. Think about all of the new releases—16X water issues, V11 bearings, GW 900 wH batteries, V12 MOSFETs, MSuper water issues, Sherman rims, S18 suspension assembly, RS bearings, EX.N cooling, Abrams mystery cutouts, Hero runs away from under you, Commander cooling, Sherman Bt Lou, Master battery configuration, XMen frame welding, GW/BG general fragility… as a player, the odds with batch1 are not in your favor.

That list is really bumming me out. And it's not even complete.

I totally understand.

My wife kinda looked at me bummed and said this wheel seems to have messed you round more than it’s worth which made me think about it. It has, not many positives after a long time. i just don’t see a good solution for now and feel KS had time to offer one. It does suck and that list is a horrible one. 

I totally didn’t want to be here :/

So i guess trying the dice again may roll better? 

maybe not. 

s22 is still in my room for now 

i am having a frumpy day. i’ll go have a sandwich  

 

 

[That Guy]

5 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

My wife kinda looked at me bummed and said this wheel seems to have messed you round more than it’s worth

After almost two years my wife still thinks I am a clown. :-) Wives are like that, man... This hobby wouldn't exist if we listened to our wives! ;-)

If you like how it rides - stick with it. (I am not sure the V13 will suit your kind of riding in Brissie anyway.)

[onkeldanuel]

3 hours ago, wstuart said:

So I ride a begode EX that had motor bearing issues - as many did.  Every 6th ride or so I get a knocking sound kind of like the ones in these s22 videos (not as bad though).  EX owners have come up with a myriad of ways to make the knocking go away.  Some guys pull over and yank on the tire to make the bearing re-seat in the cover, other carve rapidly at low speed.  I've found if I ride around in circles going to the left, the sound goes away.  Apparently the bearing is just a tiny bit loose in the cover which causes something in the motor to click (I was told a magnet hitting the motor cover).  Even more interesting we - we can make the clicking sound come and go....

So the idea that a clicking sound would go away with banging on a motor cover does not seem strange to me at all.  

Yeah the Bearings on EX needed a 1mm shim + retaining compound because the Motorcovers with the Bearingseats hat a little play/tolerances , and therefore the knockingsound (slightly movement of the bearings in the seats)

So the alignments / retightening of the motorcovers make lot of sense to me too (slightly missaligned bearings perhaps while initial wrong tightening of the motorcovers)

Edited August 16, 2022 by onkeldanuel

[Freeforester]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

You have to do what feels right to you. But the way things seem to be, it's just another turn at the craps table with 3 or 4 thousand on orange 13 instead of red 22. Think about all of the new releases—16X water issues, V11 bearings, GW 900 wH batteries, V12 MOSFETs, MSuper water issues, Sherman rims, S18 suspension assembly, RS bearings, EX.N cooling, Abrams mystery cutouts, Hero runs away from under you, Commander cooling, Sherman Bt Lou, Master battery configuration, XMen frame welding, GW/BG general fragility… as a player, the odds with batch1 are not in your favor.

 

‘Twas ever thus; however there are degrees of ‘teething problems’ here, some of which are or have proved to be terminal, others not so much, and can be fixed readily enough (I know this shouldn’t be necessary, but we are parking this absolutist notion for the purpose of getting us on the wheel and along). A cooling mod for EB has been developed and proven to be very successful; Begode wheels are no less fragile today than earlier models, but there are aftermarket solutions, and it’s been a while since any new wheel of theirs caught fire - they aren’t prone to cutout without some extreme provocation/maxing out of speed by the rider. Water ingress can be prevented, and as we all recognise, prevention is better than cure (few if any set out to ride in the rain, but if we get caught out, then it’s good to know this aspect has been mitigated). 
 

I feel it’s fair to say that we are all looking for that perfect wheel for our own particular application, and are charmed by the notion of a problem-free suspension system but which seems to be proving rather more elusive to ‘master’ 🤔😀 than we had anticipated, and so we have to content ourselves with perhaps older but proven-designed runners until the shiny new toys offer the basic reliability of the wheels of yore.    Throwing good money at/on fatally flawed designs is to my mind a luxury few can afford these days, but where there are reasonable workarounds available in order to improve the less-flawed product/s then it is worth weighing up the cost:benefit of doing so, but - on a poorly executed design? Not so much.    As a community we need to look rather more objectively at each individual offering - irrespective of brand - and decide which wheel/s represent solid investment in our preferred ‘fun-factor’ (few fit that bill), and leave the development and evaluation of the new stuff to be ironed out between the dealers, the serious and objective influencers (some are clearly not), and the individual manufacturing companies.
 

No matter how shiny and new the wheel, if it doesn’t ‘work’ - avoid - at least until it has been shown to be something that will run as reliably as the proven wheels - to be ‘first’ (like the YouTube video commenters) does little to help inform the subject matter; influencers like Denis, Ronin, Mickey, Adam and Jediah have the power to make or break the product, and the sooner both the consumer and the manufacturers realise this, the more progress we should see toward basic functionality of new designs.    Right now, Begode/EB’s evolutionary progression is making more sense than the revolutionary advances attempted by others. This fact may be unpalatable fare for many, but we need to see matters as they really are, rather than how we may wish them to be. Sure, the former stables’ designs are shown to be made of poorer quality materials and they have problems that need to be addressed, and we should demand better of them in this respect, but the basic functionality is undeniably there, something of a fundamental aspect that is proving rather more elusive to some other latter competitor brands.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Freeforester

[daniel1234]

I am curious how many rides are completely satified / or what is actual failure rate.  

I really like motor rim design and overall form factor. But I ridden two S22 and both feels kind of disappointing, even through one had Pirelli tyre and fox shock. Main reason is waiting and big expectation from promos. 

[Rawnei]

Oh damn, Begode defense force is here, how about we keep brand warring out of this thread and focus on the wheel in the topic.

On telegram there is now blueprints floating around for a new updated slider design with POM rollers that won't require modification to the battery boxes, it looks promising can't wait to see someone manufacture and test it, if it works as well as Alexanders previous design it will be a great upgrade.

[Robse]

16 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Oh damn, Begode defense force is here, how about we keep brand warring out of this thread and focus on the wheel in the topic.

On telegram there is now blueprints floating around for a new updated slider design with POM rollers that won't require modification to the battery boxes, it looks promising can't wait to see someone manufacture and test it, if it works as well as Alexanders previous design it will be a great upgrade.

It wont be long before someone has ripped of a S22, Master, Master pro, and a little rest of pieces from different other wheels, and used these building bricks to build their very own and unique Wheel named "Disaster 2023" 

[wstuart]

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Oh damn, Begode defense force is here, how about we keep brand warring out of this thread and focus on the wheel in the topic.

On telegram there is now blueprints floating around for a new updated slider design with POM rollers that won't require modification to the battery boxes, it looks promising can't wait to see someone manufacture and test it, if it works as well as Alexanders previous design it will be a great upgrade.

Can someone post that picture here?  Is that a KS blueprint?

This is ultimately why I'm not getting this wheel yet.  I want them to hammer out their motor issue (literally apparently)  and I want v2 of these suspension sliders.  Then I will buy this in a heartbeat. 

"Isthereanyfood" had a video of people riding that Russian guys frictionless roller sliders design s22.  It appeared to substantially change the performance of the suspension.  There is massive room for improvement. 

[Rawnei]

1 minute ago, wstuart said:

"Isthereanyfood" had a video of people riding that Russian guys frictionless roller sliders design s22.  It appeared to substantially change the performance of the suspension.  There is massive room for improvement. 

The "russian guy" is Alexander, the designer of the modified slider mechanism.

[daniel1234]

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Oh damn, Begode defense force is here, how about we keep brand warring out of this thread and focus on the wheel in the topic.

On telegram there is now blueprints floating around for a new updated slider design with POM rollers that won't require modification to the battery boxes, it looks promising can't wait to see someone manufacture and test it, if it works as well as Alexanders previous design it will be a great upgrade.

Not really I ride all brands wheels ... I hope I can get hand on used S22 for rework. I would rather see linear rails or rods than rollers on S22.  You can mount 4 linear rails to aluminum battery box and laser-cut new motor mount. I cannot imagine than miniature Delrin rollers can hold load on offroad EUC. 

[EUCzero]

First... I would change those 4 short slider blocks with 2 long ones if possible. 

Some might argue that a bigger contact surface would give higher friction. Sure. But on the S22 the weight on the sliders are not centered, making short blocks "lock" into place more. PS... this is just my theory.
Also long ones would keep dirt out of the slider canal better as there would be less open space for the dirt to enter.

Sure wheels/rollers would be able to take the load, as the sideways forces ar very low. Only during hard pedal clips or crashes the rollers would encounter high force impact sideways to the walls of the slider canals. If a skateboard can survive, why should not these rollers do?

[Forwardnbak]

i have a new motor being air freighted and due Thursday. Here’s hoping all is well. 

[daniel1234]

11 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

i have a new motor being air freighted and due Thursday. Here’s hoping all is well. 

Good luck - Don't strip motor screws and make some pics

[Rollin-on-1]

1 hour ago, Forwardnbak said:

i have a new motor being air freighted and due Thursday. Here’s hoping all is well. 

I hope you stick with the S22.  I enjoy watching your channel and look forward to more content on your S22 journey!  Best of luck with the new motor!

[Driftcycle]

It was said that Jason had a team travel to Kingsong to oversee the QA on the ewheels 40T S22, hopefully they did a comprehensive look at the wheel as a whole and not just the batteries ensuring the the QA to be a little better than the regular stock. 

To date we haven't heard of any problems with the 40T S22, of course this is probably because no one have received it yet, so there's hope that the ewheels editions are built to a better standard, given ewheels reps were on on site. 👀

Maybe the QA team actually showed up for work given they had guests. Really hope these are fixable problems, given this is still the best looking wheel on the market. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Driftcycle

[Rollin-on-1]

The discussion on charging and balancing has been quiet for a few days.  Did adjusting the charger output voltage to 126.7v allow the cells to properly balance?  Is the charge amperage ramping down properly towards the end of the charge?  

It seems like the shortcomings with the suspension sliders and the motor clunking are easily managed, but the charging/balancing issue still concerns me.

[Chriull]

44 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Did adjusting the charger output voltage to 126.7v allow the cells to properly balance?

Overly increasing the max charge voltage just leads to single cell group overvoltage and premature bms cut off.

44 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

  Is the charge amperage ramping down properly towards the end of the charge?  

If charge cut off happens around the manufacturer specified roughly 50-60mA per patalleled cell there is no problem with balancing.

In contraty, risk of fire should be drasticly decreased.