Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Elliott Reitz]

On 8/18/2021 at 10:21 PM, Paul A said:

@AtlasP

This is Google's cache of https://www.ewheels.com/product/king-song-s20-placeholder/. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 7 Aug 2021 23:16:27 GMT. ...

Contact Info: Email: sales@eWheels.com We Ship within the US & Canada, Sorry NO International Shipping Available

King Song S20 Placeholder

$3,400

Me?

Well I got the "King Song S22 Shipping Update. 24th Aug" email from ewheels too.   

And for my story on it, THIS:  

Order #39612 was placed on August 27, 2021

I can't fault eWheels.  They did send me one of the V1 wheels back in April after my Alien Rides S20 firmware-upgrade-bricked itself and I begged eWheels to send it.  The eWheels V1 S22 had battery problems from its box opening and only rode 20 miles before bricking itself too.  There were serious (20V) ground issues between the charger, battery, and the motherboard.  There were also communication faults and hall sensor seeming issues.  I measured voltages for KS China, but they couldn't ship anything since most of their region was still locked-down.  Anyway, I'm looking forward to an S22 V2 40T.  

As for my Alien Rides (AR) Ukrain-auctioned S20, AR sent a working motherboard-battery set from a 20 miles working wheel.  That got me riding again and now I have 400 miles total on the wheel (200 original bats/mb, now 200 this bat/mb set).  The only issue I have with it is the flimsy front fender mount being busted on the right side and I already cut its ass off and that kick-stand thing too.  Using pucks on the suspension for kickstand.  

Edited August 24, 2022 by Elliott Reitz
unbold

[enaon]

1 hour ago, Yamanator said:

In one of the emails I received they had said this:

Q: Has there been an independent QC inspection for these machines?
A: Yes, we sent in an inspection team to validate the core functions, check that the battery packs were able to attain ~1V of the 126V max voltage spec, test the suspensions & oversee the in-house test/assembly processes.

Nice that customs is allowing ewheels to open the containers and unbox the s22's before releasing them.

[Tawpie]

3 minutes ago, enaon said:

Nice that customs is allowing ewheels to open the containers and unbox the s22's before releasing them.

I'm led to believe that the inspection team was sent to the KS factory prior to acceptance of the wheels for shipment. Customs won't let anyone that's not "customs" into the bonded area for obvious reasons. At least not US Customs. They're not supposed to anyway.

[Yamanator]

4 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I'm led to believe that the inspection team was sent to the KS factory prior to acceptance of the wheels for shipment. Customs won't let anyone that's not "customs" into the bonded area for obvious reasons. At least not US Customs. They're not supposed to anyway.

That was my interpretation as well.

[enaon]

10 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I'm led to believe that the inspection team was sent to the KS factory prior to acceptance of the wheels for shipment. Customs won't let anyone that's not "customs" into the bonded area for obvious reasons. At least not US Customs. They're not supposed to 

black humor, sorry 

[Marek Mazur]

Hi, i just got my s22 and i think its damaged out of the box:(
After unpacking I tried to turn it on but nothing happend- screen was black, so I connected wheel to the charger then to kingsong application and immediately recevied notification about low battery. I checked battery voltage and was deeply discharged around 90v:( lol . Screen is turned on but wheel is not balancing, I charged it to 30% then updated vehicle software (bms updating failed)nbut it didnt help so i  disconneted battery twice and it didnt help either. I cannot turn it off using power button or through ks application so at the end I had to disconnect batteries.

What i think is:

- they dont have any quality control

- they put wheel into the box with screen turned on (until discharded completely inside) 

 

I have waited for this wheel almost a year and i didnt even have chance to ride it. I feel disappointed with what the KS has done with this wheel

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Marek Mazur

[Tawpie]

Oh man, that is so disappointing. Nothing for you to do but call your reseller.

Since you can't turn it off using the power button, I suspect the button itself may be bad.

I feel bad for you that you drew a short straw… it must feel a bit like getting underwear for Christmas.

[SanDiegoGuy]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

 

I feel bad for you that you drew a short straw… it must feel a bit like getting underwear for Christmas.

At least you can use the underwear.

I was among the first batch to get the S22 from ewheels because I put down the deposit the first day that ewheels had the deposit page up.  However, I told ewheels last week to put me back to the second batch after I hear so many stories of all the QC problems.  I am so glad that I postpone my shipment.  I may even postpone it until the 3rd batch if necessary.

In the mean time, I will just enjoy my Sherman Max.

I actually put down a deposit for the Begode T4 and probably get it before the S22.  How ironic.

Edited August 25, 2022 by SanDiegoGuy

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, SanDiegoGuy said:

I actually put down a deposit for the Begode T4 and probably get it before the S22.  How ironic.

Perhaps euc addicts are unknowingly too sympathetic towards the manufacturers.

After waiting for about a year, the wheel you preordered turned out go be too buggy and partially poorly designed. Instead of canceling, like you would do for any other consumer product, you doubled down. You will either accept the wheel or wait for a latter batch, and at the same time preorders another newly released wheel, all the while you are riding on a third newly released wheel that happens to be more or less OK.

It defies all logic, and happily there are no known cure. 🙂

Edited August 25, 2022 by techyiam

[Mayhem]

“No known cure” I disagree. The solution is quite an easy one. Simply stop volunteering to be a guinea pig by preordering these machines. Time after time people wanna cream their pants over a rendering & a spec sheet only to be disappointed by it. All your doing is showing that your more then willing to fork over top dollar for a half a$$ed product. 

[oolong]

14 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

“No known cure” I disagree. The solution is quite an easy one. Simply stop volunteering to be a guinea pig by preordering these machines. Time after time people wanna cream their pants over a rendering & a spec sheet only to be disappointed by it. All your doing is showing that your more then willing to fork over top dollar for a half a$$ed product. 

Or you're just willing to fork over top dollar to bring some enjoyment to your life sooner rather than later and you're willing/able to take the risks.  Nothing wrong with being excited over something new.   The fact that this thread was created nearly a year and half ago and has 160 pages shows that.  1st batch problem are real, but I've gotten at least 3 wheels that were first batches, two of which were air shipped by the manufacturer.  They've been running for years and I haven't had a problem with any of them.  Most people don't post about the problems they're not having.

As long as you except the risk it's fine.  Just keep in mind that being in a 3rd 4th or 10th batch doesn't completely eliminate your risk either.  That's why vendors and having people who can work with you to resolve problems is just as important as the wheel itself. 

 

[Tawpie]

43 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

Simply stop volunteering to be a guinea pig by preordering these machines.

If you do volunteer to be a guinea pig, expect a number of problems (some severe) because if history is any indicator, it won't be a polished product. I can guarantee you that it will not live up to the hype on more than one front. Revel in the victory when you or somebody else comes up with a workaround. Share your experience. Return or sell it if that feels right.

If you don't choose to volunteer, try to go easy on those that did. It's difficult enough wondering if you made the right decision when folks that have no skin in the game keep pointing out what a complete POS it is. Besides, batch1 and POS are kind of department of redundancy department—get over it.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Tawpie

[UniVehje]

4 hours ago, Marek Mazur said:

I feel disappointed with what the KS has done with this wheel

 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Perhaps euc addicts are unknowingly too sympathetic towards the manufacturers.

There are different levels of first batch problems. Somehow the combination of bad design decisions, very bad quality control and taking almost a full year to iron them out and still fail makes this wheel feel worse than other first batch issues before. The percentage of failures is just too high for even a first batch product. Basically even those whose wheel still works need to clean the suspension sliders very soon or just ride with a bad suspension. 

I had a well functioning S22 (after loosening the suspension) until 1050 km mark. Probably most units out there are still ridden less than that. The failure percentage just keeps rising still. I don't know what the number is at the moment but it must be well above 20%. Could be even higher. Of the units that I know in Finland more than half have failed. I would accept 5 % failure rate for first batch wheels. And that's very generous from an EUC addict. For S22 I don't feel like I took a risk and got burned. I would accept it if the rate would be reasonable. This release is a huge blunder from KS and I think the whole first batch should be recalled and replaced with reliable and properly built units.

[techyiam]

58 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

“No known cure” I disagree. The solution is quite an easy one.. 

Here is a counter example.

23 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

it won't be a polished product. I can guarantee you that it will not live up to the hype on more than one front. Revel in the victory when you or somebody else comes up with a workaround.

...

It's difficult enough wondering if you made the right decision when folks that have no skin in the game keep pointing out what a complete POS it is. Besides, batch1 and POS are kind of department of redundancy department—get over it.

No manufacturer needs to worry about quality control and proper engineering. The addicts will adapt to new lows (ie. S22).  

Motor vehicles are federally regulated. So consumers are for the most part protected. However, for PEV'S, they are not. So, the consumers need to use their wallets to "regulate" the manufacturers. 

[techyiam]

36 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

 

There are different levels of first batch problems. Somehow the combination of bad design decisions, very bad quality control and taking almost a full year to iron them out and still fail makes this wheel feel worse than other first batch issues before. The percentage of failures is just too high for even a first batch product. Basically even those whose wheel still works need to clean the suspension sliders very soon or just ride with a bad suspension. 

...

The failure percentage just keeps rising still. I don't know what the number is at the moment but it must be well above 20%. Could be even higher. Of the units that I know in Finland more than half have failed. I would accept 5 % failure rate for first batch wheels. And that's very generous from an EUC addict. For S22 I don't feel like I took a risk and got burned. I would accept it if the rate would be reasonable. This release is a huge blunder from KS and I think the whole first batch should be recalled and replaced with reliable and properly built units.

Exactly. Finally, someone with "skin in the game" is speaking out.

S22 is a prime example of an incompetently designed, tested, and produced euc. It is not like they didn't have enough time; they need to go back to human resources and ripped up their hiring policy and draft up a new one that will hire competent engineers.

Edited August 25, 2022 by techyiam

[LightWave]

I have a different opinion on the S22 if I may interject with love. XD I see the s22 as DIY dream machine and I feel like the intention was to design something for the pro enthusiast that really likes to fully customize their own machine. With a little patience and quite a few adjustments including a new street tire I have to say it can be made to feel like a 16x + s18 blended together with a side steroids. IDK but now I really can't wait to get a 3D printer and pimp it out. It's sad that we don't think about designing our own wheels here in Canada and US that run nice in the rain and snow... I never was really into consumerism that much but of course I sometimes like things to plug and play right out of the box as well. If you know me then you know I had a lot of issues with King Song wheels but I'm still a big fan

[UniVehje]

2 minutes ago, ElectronxCycles said:

With a little patience and quite a few adjustments including a new street tire I have to say it can be made to feel like a 16x + s18 blended together with a side steroids.

I totally agree with this. I actually found a very nice setup that felt fantastic. Lowered the height by one step, changed the tire, loosened the sliders and cushioned the seat better. I already have plans for suitable coil, dust covers, seat and getting rid of the sharp corner on the battery box. It has great potential but today my wheel was shipped for service. Sucks to wait a couple of weeks to get back to tinkering and riding. 

[Mayhem]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

However, for PEV'S, they are not. So, the consumers need to use their wallets to "regulate" the manufacturers. 

Agreed…. But why would an euc company make a better product for the masses when people shell out top dollar for a lack luster wheel. If people stopped preordering and let the wheel sit until euc companies had to prove they had a winner With proper testing of at least a few thousand miles of real world conditions before they put the uni on sale then we wouldn’t be plagued with the dilemma we currently have.  

Edited August 25, 2022 by Mayhem

[Mayhem]

21 hours ago, oolong said:

Or you're just willing to fork over top dollar to bring some enjoyment to your life sooner rather than later and you're willing/able to take the risks.  Nothing wrong with being excited over something new.   The fact that this thread was created nearly a year and half ago and has 160 pages shows that.  1st batch problem are real, but I've gotten at least 3 wheels that were first batches, two of which were air shipped by the manufacturer.  They've been running for years and I haven't had a problem with any of them.  Most people don't post about the problems they're not having.

As long as you except the risk it's fine.  Just keep in mind that being in a 3rd 4th or 10th batch doesn't completely eliminate your risk either.  That's why vendors and having people who can work with you to resolve problems is just as important as the wheel itself. 

 

Nothing wrong with being excited for new tech. We all enjoy these machines in the same regard but you can’t complain about Q.C when people paid for an unproven product……

your right batch 3,4….10 won’t completely eliminate the risk of not getting a defective unit but the odds are much much more in your favor then early batches. If people held their money and waited for the product to be proven, tested and put through it’s paces everyone would benefit as a whole not just some people who got lucky and got a good one. The track record for early batches isn’t a good one, Regardless of what company. Kingsong took a lot of risks with this wheel and many who jumped on the hype train paying the price for it. 
 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Mayhem

[That Guy]

24 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

Agreed…. But why would an euc company make a better product for the masses when people shell out top dollar for a lack luster wheel. If people stopped preordering and let the wheel sit until euc companies had to prove they had a winner With proper testing of at least a few thousand miles of real world conditions before they put the uni on sale then we wouldn’t be plagued with the dilemma we currently have.  

This is quite a paradox... This hobby is so addictive that the members of a relatively small world-wide community are ready to consume almost anything! We are excited even about unverified rumours before rendering. But when rendering comes out - then we loose our mind and pay for pre-orders!...

Sorry for being irrelevantly philosophical in this forum, but there are two long-term problems that I am not sure will be overcome in the foreseen future with this hobby: Chinese design/manufacture culture flaw (when they have to do it from scratch and not as a part of the Western framework - "we can cut any corners if it saves us something when they can't see how we are doing that") and Western obsession with safety/liability (humans can kill themselves if having too much freedom - "we should restrict as much as we can to save every one of them"). The first problem will keep on creating new idiotic errors in design and manufacture and the second will not allow design or manufacture of "apparently dangerous" thing in places with higher quality of research and development. 

On the topic, today is one year since S20 was announced. As an observer, I am shocked by the degree of S22 launch has been failing. It was very ambitious and I was cheering KingSong's bravery. I feel for them. I love my KS16X, which is approaching 7,000km without any problem despite of all of the harsh use by the new rider over the last year and a half. I was sure I was going to buy the S20 back then but the first schedule slippages made me feel uneasy early enough. Well, on a positive note, the S20 announcement opened the new era of "what's possible" and we will now have all these new Masters, V13's and even LeaperKim are about to show their "answer to S20"...

I also wonder why Jack left KingSong...

[Julian-NZ]

3 hours ago, That Guy said:

I also wonder why Jack left KingSong...

A very good point...... Why did he leave?
QC or design issues???

Hmmmmmm. As a person who is STILL waiting for his S22, I'm a bit worried that I'll be sold a lemon!

[Forwardnbak]

14 hours ago, That Guy said:

I also wonder why Jack left KingSong...

moved on to focus on his new wheel?? 

EJACK MAX 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Forwardnbak

[Tawpie]

Well, he did move to Canada…

[Hellkitten]

22 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Well, he did move to Canada…

Yup, we’re doing the sunset cruise with him tomorrow night. 🌞😎

[That Guy]

57 minutes ago, Hellkitten said:

Yup, we’re doing the sunset cruise with him tomorrow night. 🌞😎

Tell us later what he thinks of S22... ;-)