Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[UniVehje]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

From rest, which of the two wheels can you accelerate quicker to 30 km/h, V11 or S22?

The one you lean more. If one wheel would accelerate more with similar lean, it would run from under you and drop you on your ass. 

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

but it's not all S22 as some proponents make it out to be

Don't you ride with @supercurio? Is he still riding and enjoying his recently received brand new S22, the wheel he waited almost a year to get? Did he make up the narratives regarding serious motor issues, and controller board failures, so serious there was a recall in Kingsong's domestic market?

Edited August 27, 2022 by techyiam

[Rawnei]

3 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Don't you ride with @supercurio? Is he still riding and enjoying his recently received brand new S22, the wheel he waited almost a year for? Did he make up the narratives regarding serious motor issues, and controller board failures, so serious there was a recall in Kingsong's domestic market?

Again trying way too hard, are you on someones payroll or just have too much spare time?

[jrhz06]

6 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Don't you ride with @supercurio? Is he still riding and enjoying his recently received brand new S22, the wheel he waited almost a year for? Did he make up the narratives regarding serious motor issues, and controller board failures, so serious there was a recall in Kingsong's domestic market?

Enjoying your v12? Good thing it’s been perfect without any issues.

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Again trying way too hard, are you on someones payroll or just have too much spare time?

Ad Hominem Fallacy. 

It is great that you are and can enjoy the S22.

 

[Rawnei]

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Ad Hominem Fallacy. 

It is great that you are and can enjoy the S22.

 

Here's an idea, go out an ride your wheels a bit, enjoy life, stop pestering the good folks on this forum with your constant negativity, I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of it.

[supercurio]

Since I'm mentioned, first I'm very much on the same page as @fbhb here, and could copy paste his message.

Each OEM launches their EUC too early in this competitive environment, and all of them have to make changes after a few months of production, either to correct a design error or to fix recurring QC failures.

We can see it happening in realtime every time (like with the V13 ATM)

What I find too bad is OEMs trying to save money unwisely, at the expense of customer satisfaction and their own reputation as a result.

Right now for instance, Kingsong covers air shipping costs only for mainboards. Motors which we know have defects, expected to be fixed now are deemed too heavy/too costly to send by air.

It results in putting dealers in trouble because air shipping one motor to fix one wheel timely, for them is impractically expensive. Then sea shipping is very slow, resulting in customers likely to be waiting months with broken wheels they barely rode. Unless the dealer decides to eat all its margin and splurge. Some I know did, some don't feel like they can.

So that's my main complaint here (and I'm biased since I'm affected): Kingsong making poor, short terms choices, instead of supporting their dealers and customers through the typical difficulties experienced during EUC launches.

Then although the S22 is an awesome wheel to ride, not perfect but a fantastic overall package, the consensus shifts to the S22 being unreliable and Kingsong not standing by their product as we would like to trust them to.

 

@techyiam I think your commentary/criticism comes from good intentions to warn others of potential issues. I read everything and sometimes it feels like you're stuck in a loop, obsessing a little bit about it. I probably did the same at some point tho and can relate. Now I see that's it helps to get more first hand info and experience, although it also means risking failure.

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by supercurio

[Mayhem]

19 hours ago, oolong said:

 

Well the catch S22 is that people doing IRL testing are giving up the money to do so... 

lol catch s22 good one……

customers shouldn’t be the ones doing the irl testing that’s the issue. If your gonna volunteer to be a preorder Guinea pig the wheel should be at a significant discount. 
 

For example; A better system would be sell around 100 units at a substantial discount as the “beta tester version” get feedback from said testers and customer exchange beta wheel for final version of issues arise or keep beta version if they are happy with it. Company gets wheel tested, customer get wheel at a substantial discount and if it’s a lemon they will get it replaced with a proper version. 
 

but a last, most people are fine with current pay and risk it all philosophy. So nothing will ever properly change.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Mayhem

[supercurio]

7 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

For example; A better system would be sell around 100 units at a substantial discount as the “beta tester version” get feedback from said testers and customer exchange beta wheel for final version of issues arise or keep beta version if they are happy with it. Company gets wheel tested, customer get wheel at a substantial discount and if it’s a lemon they will get it replaced with a proper version. 

It's a good idea, and it's pretty much how it happened already 😉 it's the "demo" units bought by dealers who use them for demo days or send them to reviewers.

[Tawpie]

Just to jump in...

It's difficult to understand just how difficult new product development is. From the consumer perspective, we assume that the things we buy will include fail safe design, 100% out of the box delight, 100% reliability forever, ethically produced, planet friendly, fantastic looking, impossible to break, color never fades, everything exceeding the marketing hype.

And we insist on paying as little as we can for this. Less if we can. Plus I at least, want all that NOW.

NASA employs some of the most rigorous design check/test/validate processes in the world, this level of attention to detail slowed them down so much that they got eclipsed as the premier supplier of space flight by SpaceX—in only a decade. And yet they still experienced Columbia, Challenger, Apollo 13, Apollo 1. Fingers crossed for Monday and SLS.

Tesla's brand loyalty is Apple level, yet their build quality (and some design quality) consistently ranks among the worst in automobiles.

New product development is simply not as easy as it seems. Missteps are a certainty, hopefully they don't sink your company. I personally don't think the Engineers that develop our wheels are incompetent. I don't think that as a whole the assembly workers are flippant about QC issues. I don't think that the bean counters are inherently evil when they say "that's too expensive" (well, maybe a little).

I think we're looking at new products. With warts.

In 2025 the S22 will be boring, pretty much fine out of the box, and a very safe bet for a just-get-on-and-ride customer. We'll (hopefully) be bemoaning the tendency for the newly introduced BG Maglev to slip sideways when you fly over a rabbit that darted into your path.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Tawpie

[Mayhem]

5 minutes ago, supercurio said:

It's a good idea, and it's pretty much how it happened already 😉 it's the "demo" units bought by dealers who use them for demo days or send them to reviewers.

Thanks…. No one really rides the demo for more then a few minutes though and the demo wheel is long gone before serious mileage is placed on it to get a full understanding of the wheels longevity. 

[mhpr262]

I recently watched some S22 reviews by speedy feet on youtube, and the range still seems to be just as bad as mentioned in the first reviews, even accounting for the fact he is a tall guy, rides pretty fast and often on dirt roads. Have we found out what the reason for the poor range is? Where does all the battery energy go? Is the motor so bad? The control board? Is it the tire?

[Rawnei]

17 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

I recently watched some S22 reviews by speedy feet on youtube, and the range still seems to be just as bad as mentioned in the first reviews, even accounting for the fact he is a tall guy, rides pretty fast and often on dirt roads. Have we found out what the reason for the poor range is? Where does all the battery energy go? Is the motor so bad? The control board? Is it the tire?

I don't agree that it has poor range, it has the range expected from 2200Wh battery, more range than I had on my 1800Wh MSP and less range than my 3200Wh Sherman had or my friends 2664Wh Nikola, so in reality nothing really different from other wheels just the rated capacity. I don't know what people expect here honestly.

[Flying W]

From what I've seem reported range wise I'd have to agree with @Rawnei. I don't have one to see how my range would stack up but keep in mind that on a mnt bike with rear suspension it takes more of you energy  to pedal. Less of your output goes into forward movement.  I suspect suspension on an euc also takes something extra off tye total range. 

Add in speedy feets wind resistance being tall and going at pace on dirt which causes lots of small power spikes to stay level over uneven ground and the range will suffer, a bunch.

I have no doubt that flat paved cruising (18 to 20mph) will result in decent range, somewhere around 50 miles. This would be on par with my RS, the other 400 odd wh being taken by having suspension.  

I'm still waiting to see what Kingsong comes up with slider wise in the next iteration,  but I can't stop thinking of how awesome this wheel is at being a one wheeled dirt bike and I still want one. 

I'm also very happy that people that are having a good time with it continue to post so that it's not all doom n gloom. It gives me hope that I will pull the trigger on one.

At least with kingsong this wheel will be around a while, gotway releases multiple wheels a year so replacement parts disappear by the time the bigs are ironed out. I keep buying gotways because they perform well and ride great (and have yet to fry my house) but having a great performing alternative would be really cool if kingsong can fix some of the issues, like Cell balancing and firmware/board architecture that let's you get all tye grunt 126v should allow.

I know they can make something last, I have a 16s that was my first wheel with thousands of miles on it and it had to go through the learning curve of a new rider. It's 5yrs old and still  Hargis to 100 percent, still have original bearings and aside from some broken clips from crashes and tire changes rides just as it always has.

My mcm5 version one has over 5k miles on it and works as it did when I bought it. Way less scuffs since I already had 2k miles under me when I bought it as a second wheel. My RSt has 2400 miles and it's also a batch one. The RS had faulty bearing holder spacing causing the dreded knocking sound at 8 miles, Jason swapped the entire wheel for a new one it's been great. Also still on original bearings. I keep a bead of marine great on the outside, it attracts dust until nothing can stick but so far has kept the bearings from getting debris in them.

I want the S22 to be in the same boat. Minor idiosyncrasies are fine with me. I just want it to work well for thousands of miles like the wheels of yesterday.

It will be the off reader, the RSt I'll keep for general fun everywhere and then I'll just need two more.  A long distance cruiser and an mten4 for shits and giggles 😃 

[onkeldanuel]

Havent done a rangetest yet, but i looked at the avg Energy consumed at eucworld like all my last wheels - with my ridingstyle at my fav tour i can compare S22: 29wh/km , V11: 32wh/km, EX: 34 wh/km (all gps corrected)

Edited August 27, 2022 by onkeldanuel

[onkeldanuel]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Just curious about this. Due to the large diameter wheel, people has said that the torque is difficult to access. 

Under what riding situations have you found the EX an infinite torque machine.

With my kinetic pads (have them on the S22 now) you can create unreal torque and i think i lean pretty hard in at steep forest/gravel roads uphill....thats how i can compare the power the wheels deliver best (till they beep for example)

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, mhpr262 said:

I recently watched some S22 reviews by speedy feet on youtube, and the range still seems to be just as bad as mentioned in the first reviews, even accounting for the fact he is a tall guy, rides pretty fast and often on dirt roads. Have we found out what the reason for the poor range is? Where does all the battery energy go? Is the motor so bad? The control board? Is it the tire?

Ian from Speedy Feet always gets atrocious range in all his tests. I don't know how he does it, but somehow he does. Do not take Speedy Feet range numbers as absolute. You can compare Speedy Feet range numbers only among themselves, so check his other range results if you want to contextualize his S22 range result.

[oolong]

2 hours ago, Mayhem said:

lol catch s22 good one……

customers shouldn’t be the ones doing the irl testing that’s the issue. If your gonna volunteer to be a preorder Guinea pig the wheel should be at a significant discount. 
 

For example; A better system would be sell around 100 units at a substantial discount as the “beta tester version” get feedback from said testers and customer exchange beta wheel for final version of issues arise or keep beta version if they are happy with it. Company gets wheel tested, customer get wheel at a substantial discount and if it’s a lemon they will get it replaced with a proper version. 
 

but a last, most people are fine with current pay and risk it all philosophy. So nothing will ever properly change.

Well that's the reality...    There are tons of "customers" who are willing to pay full price to get their hands on the wheel first.  In fact there are many who would actually pay more to get the wheel first...  So from a business standpoint, it doesn't make sense to give people a discount and then delay the roll out of your new product.

Also social media has created a large pool of people who test new wheels and get the word out.  Unfortunately creating a quick video is not the same as using something day to day.

But there's no substitute for good QC, engineers, and designers who can go through all of these issues early on in the process.  The slider issue is something that definitely should have been caught internally, but it's almost like they created something temporary that worked with the battery packs and forgot to revisit it.

[Mayhem]

3 hours ago, oolong said:

Well that's the reality...    There are tons of "customers" who are willing to pay full price to get their hands on the wheel first.  In fact there are many who would actually pay more to get the wheel first... 

Pay more for less 😂. Truly sad

[conecones]

13 hours ago, Rawnei said:

The more I ride the S22 the more I'm loving it, no torque issues whatsoever which is the no.1 complaint from people who don't own one or even ridden it, it's ridiculous.

For street or casual trail riding, torque is not a problem. But in a technical climb at 30-40 degrees with roots and rocks, the S22 torque is definitely lacking. It is fine going up such inclines if it was obstruction free, but once you have to bonk a root or rock while already pushing hard into the pads to maintain the climb, it will dip the pedals and most importantly, it will not recover from the dip and if you continue to push, it will shut off. 

This is coming from first hand experience seeing this happen with very experienced riders. The S22 cannot keep up with even the RS19 in such scenarios, and I believe it is due to the tuning. Gotway tuning will allow the wheel to keep trying after the pedal dips (probably overstressing the battery/board) but the S22 will not. There is a rubber band feeling once the dip happens and its hard to recover. Gotway's will recover almost immediately after the dip if you let off. 

This is a small detail but one that can make a big difference depending on the trail. The techniques to navigate these climbs requires more finesse and guys used to hammering up on their RS may be disappointed. 

On the flip side, once pointed downhill, the S22 is unmatched.

[oolong]

3 hours ago, Mayhem said:

Pay more for less 😂. Truly sad

To be fair.  Apple started it first...    😂

 

[Elliott Reitz]

1 hour ago, conecones said:

For street or casual trail riding, torque is not a problem. But in a technical climb at 30-40 degrees with roots and rocks, the S22 torque is definitely lacking. It is fine going up such inclines if it was obstruction free, but once you have to bonk a root or rock while already pushing hard into the pads to maintain the climb, it will dip the pedals and most importantly, it will not recover from the dip and if you continue to push, it will shut off. 

This is coming from first hand experience seeing this happen with very experienced riders. The S22 cannot keep up with even the RS19 in such scenarios, and I believe it is due to the tuning. Gotway tuning will allow the wheel to keep trying after the pedal dips (probably overstressing the battery/board) but the S22 will not. There is a rubber band feeling once the dip happens and its hard to recover. Gotway's will recover almost immediately after the dip if you let off. 

This is a small detail but one that can make a big difference depending on the trail. The techniques to navigate these climbs requires more finesse and guys used to hammering up on their RS may be disappointed. 

On the flip side, once pointed downhill, the S22 is unmatched.

Its a fat sluggish pig under 5 mph.  

[Ksmack]

2 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Its a fat sluggish pig under 5 mph.  

As an average American, I feel attacked. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Ksmack

[Forwardnbak]

For me it was the way KS were as a company. The lack of improvements after NY, no 3rd party BMS report released, no updates on improvements or fixes other than a new bumper (was the reason for the whole delay?)

Not supporting dealers, poor quality checking. Not just one issue, many varying issues from FW updates, clicking, loose screws, locked screws, vibrating, dead control boards etc. If it was just one issue, and the support had have been there I would have kept it. I wanted to but it felt like a $2-3k wheel quality wise, not $4.5k

[Rawnei]

6 hours ago, conecones said:

For street or casual trail riding, torque is not a problem. But in a technical climb at 30-40 degrees with roots and rocks, the S22 torque is definitely lacking. It is fine going up such inclines if it was obstruction free, but once you have to bonk a root or rock while already pushing hard into the pads to maintain the climb, it will dip the pedals and most importantly, it will not recover from the dip and if you continue to push, it will shut off. 

This is coming from first hand experience seeing this happen with very experienced riders. The S22 cannot keep up with even the RS19 in such scenarios, and I believe it is due to the tuning. Gotway tuning will allow the wheel to keep trying after the pedal dips (probably overstressing the battery/board) but the S22 will not. There is a rubber band feeling once the dip happens and its hard to recover. Gotway's will recover almost immediately after the dip if you let off. 

This is a small detail but one that can make a big difference depending on the trail. The techniques to navigate these climbs requires more finesse and guys used to hammering up on their RS may be disappointed. 

On the flip side, once pointed downhill, the S22 is unmatched.

I've done plenty of technical riding and it hasn't once pedal dipped on me and I'm on the heavier side, me and @supercurio been out in the forest, no trails, just rocks and roots out in nowhere and it handles it beautifully, we've also done technical climbs on steep uneven off-road terrain, I can't imagine what I would have to do for the S22 to not keep up because I've really been pushing myself as a rider on this wheel. Perhaps it has to do with technique and trying to brute force things?