Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[oolong]

23 minutes ago, techyiam said:

But in the case of the S22, you have neither. 

 

Hence the sentences before that wishing that they can get back to their old standards of quality.

 

23 minutes ago, techyiam said:

And in the meantime, Begode continued to improve quality and performance quietly. 

The improvements by Begode have been hit or miss.    Several Masters are just trashed beyond recognition after a crash and high speed cut outs have been uncomfortably common.   Many are "user error", but the voltage sag is unreal on that wheel making it more dangerous than most.

The fact that S20s/22s have held up in crash after crash with minimal damage other than things like the kickstand or an easily replaceable piece of the front handle does speak to it's quality despite the other QC issues. 

23 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I think only the V13 can challenge them. I hope Inmotion can pull it off.

There are couple of cgi concept images of the Sherman-S floating around, but there isn't enough of anything to garner interest. 

Maybe, but I'm not sure if V13 really knows what it is yet.  Seems more like the same category as the Monster/Master Pro.  Just a big cruiser.

Sherman-S might be more interesting.  Seems more like a solid straightforward build.

Edited August 26, 2022 by oolong

[supercurio]

So today there was the mention on Telegram that, quoting:

Quote

KS is working on a new slider now, which means there gonna be a S22 V2

It's from someone in China with a lot of connections in the industry and a high accuracy track record, often telling us months in advance what will happen next.

And that's all we know for now, this person will try to get more info on that.

Questions immediately following are:

• What about compatibility with S22 V1? (current)
• Would that be a drop-in replacement for the underperforming slider blocks?
• Would it be a complete redesign, requiring new suspension frame, battery boxes, battery packs? Or even more.
• How much would an upgrade cost?
• How well would a V2 suspension perform compared to an improved V1?

For now it's far too early to tell. Who knows, the initiative mentioned might even be scraped after testing underwhelming  prototypes.

I'm aware that this news will not comfort those still waiting for their S22, or people like me stuck with a dead wheel waiting for replacement parts for as long as they had it.

 

At the same time and regardless of this V2 rumor, I can mention that there's a very promising suspension roller solution currently in testing. Made from 3D printed parts and bearings and designed by a someone who's very creative, experienced with machining and wants to release that for free - but with precise instructions so the result performs, is robust and safe.

Alright, that's enough teasing for today 😇

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by supercurio

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, oolong said:

Hence the sentences before that wishing that they can get back to their old standards of quality.

You mean before the S18 and 16X, perhaps all the way back to the 18XL? The 18XL may be reliable but the build quality is significantly inferior to the V12. Yes, the V12 at launch was lacking a more robust driver board. But they did successfully remedy that. Other than that, I only wish their FW update is more user friendly, and reliable. Having worked on both, the V12 has a western design quality to it. The material used is better, as is the actual design.

22 minutes ago, oolong said:

The improvements by Begode have been hit or miss.    Several Masters are just trashed beyond recognition after a crash and high speed cut outs have been uncomfortably common.  Many are "user error", but the voltage sag is unreal on that wheel making it more dangerous than most.

You mean not as crash worthy as some have hoped. Can you name recent newly released wheels that you think have done better. Can you also provide links to the high speed cutouts and the dangerous voltage sag incidents.

29 minutes ago, oolong said:

Maybe, but I'm not sure if V13 really knows what it is yet.  Seems more like the same category as the Monster/Master Pro.  Just a big cruiser.

The V13 is a heavy cruiser. However, it and the Master Pro are in the same exact situation as when the Sherman was released. 

30 minutes ago, oolong said:

Sherman-S might be more interesting.  Seems more like a solid straightforward build.

It certainly could be. But it hard to know what Leap Kim is thinking based on what has been leaked. They are not in a easy position. Lest not forget the Sherman Max is selling well. There is no guarantee that a suspended version is going to better. They got burned their own by 22" Abrams, sales wise. They tried do another Sherman, but this time around, it backfired. If they continue on the Sherman legacy path, and if the 22" heavy cruiser market segment takes off, they will be burned again. Pitting the Abrams against the V13, and the Master Pro is a non starter. EEVEES will putting on their remaining Abrams stock on a fire sale since they are not selling. And eWheels, the exclusive Veteran brand distributor in the US, don't list the Abrams on their website.

[Cerbera]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

You mean not as crash worthy as some have hoped. Can you name recent newly released wheels that you think have done better. Can you also provide links to the high speed cutouts and the dangerous voltage sag incidents.

The Master crash damage results seem to be 'variable'. I've seen some videos where it gets virtually destroyed, and others where they throw them down cliffs for 10 minutes and they survive mainly unscathed. I haven't seen any videos that cite voltage sag as being particularly bad on that wheel - pls could we have links to those @oolong ?

[Tawpie]

Watch the battery percentage. It could be using that much battery, but…

Edited August 27, 2022 by Tawpie

[NErider]

Is ewheels the exclusive dealer for 40T units? 

[Curt8892]

On 8/8/2022 at 2:10 AM, mrelwood said:

I only accelerated as fast as I usually do, which is not much by today’s standards. Accelerating fast is a lighter riders’ hobby. For regular semi-cool accelerations the power delivery was fine.

This is only my suspicion, but I don’t think there is as much of a tilt element (roll left-right) to a wobble as there is a vibration through the yaw axis. Nearing the end of a death wobble the pedals do seem to go up and down some, but if suspension played a role here, I think we should see a difference in wobbles between suspension and non-suspension wheels. I have wobbled on both.

I’m probably thinking even lower speed and even more technical aspects than you. The kinds that even the V11 is a bit big for. Sub walking speed, trials style.

The test ride was short, so absolutely I was out of my comfort zone. Every aspect of the test was done in reference to my V11 and to how I see the V11 compared to all the other wheels I’ve tried. You can get used to every single aspect of any EUC, but that doesn’t make it a good or a suitable feature. You know, people get used to even an abusing partner.

None of that diminishes the unique S22 features though. No matter how well you get used to the S22, it’s still much wider than any other wheel I’ve ridden, and it’s still much slower and lazier to react to tiny steering and acceleration/braking commands compared to the RS/V11 size class of wheels. Or even the Sherman. Yes you can use it for sub-walking speed technical trials-style riding, but it definitely does not excel. For cruising at more uniform speeds though, it does excel as long as you do get used to the unique width.

No doubt. One can have very different reference points.

The wider stance for me works very well. Most athlete find balance in a wide stance while it looks like balancing activities keep their base small.  For me riding a heavy skinny wheel is a lot harder than a fat heavy wheel

[oolong]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

You mean not as crash worthy as some have hoped. Can you name recent newly released wheels that you think have done better. Can you also provide links to the high speed cutouts and the dangerous voltage sag incidents.

Obviously the S22 and pretty much any Sherman does does a lot better in a crash.    As far as voltage sag there have been numerous reports of speed being greatly reduced at even 70% charge.    I imagine this has improved somewhat with 40T versions and the newer parallel packs, but the first batches seem to be a death trap below 50%.  Whereas the S22 seems to be much more consistent with it's speed and I haven't heard of any highspeed cut outs, only low speed/high torque issues based on a defect in the main board.  

You've probably already seen this video of a master dropping this guy quickly.  No warnings, no tilt-back, but likely voltage sag due to a lower charge.  Not sure if you can view it without a fb account.

https://www.facebook.com/100006686104436/videos/1417589338669540/

 

36 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

The Master crash damage results seem to be 'variable'. I've seen some videos where it gets virtually destroyed, and others where they throw them down cliffs for 10 minutes and they survive mainly unscathed. I haven't seen any videos that cite voltage sag as being particularly bad on that wheel - pls could we have links to those @oolong ?

In either case I really haven't heard of S20s getting easily destroyed other than that fire issue.  QC issues aside, clearly they are built tougher....

[Curt8892]

Oops. I wrote that a long time. 
 

I am charging my wheel and noticed that on  my battery one the MOS temp went up to 50c and on battery two it stayed at the 25c like all the other temps. 
 

an someone explain?

 

thanks. 

[Tawpie]

46 minutes ago, NErider said:

Is ewheels the exclusive dealer for 40T units?

Yes. Reportedly, KS wouldn't even quote a minimum order quantity to other distributors.

[Tawpie]

34 minutes ago, oolong said:

I haven't heard of any highspeed cut outs

There was a very early overlean at speed, rider was confused by what the beeps meant and got dropped. S20 vintage though, so a few firmware revisions in the past.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Tawpie

[oolong]

Just now, Tawpie said:

There was a very early overlean at speed, rider was confused by what the beeps meant and got dropped. S20 vintage though.

 

lol... Well at least he was getting the warnings.

[MexicanBatman]

Why is there no mode on this wheel to have a fluid pedal feel

 

nothing is going to match an Inmotion for pedal customisation in the ride settings

 

but all 3 ride modes on the S22 are just stiff

 

what am I missing here?

 

atleast a “medium” mode aka Gotway would be very welcome

 

also how is it a 126v wheel that’s essentially the same KV motor as a RS HT

 

has no damn torque, I can over torque the S22 as easily as a V11

 

surely it’s all firmware limited

[onkeldanuel]

10 minutes ago, Trevor Phillips said:

has no damn torque, I can over torque the S22 as easily as a V11

Hmm, i overtorqued the v11 at first try but cant on the S22...pushed it somewhat hard uphill yesterday and beeped then at 50kph (same hill rs beeped at 40kph like v11....and Begode EX at about 50kph too)

Edited August 27, 2022 by onkeldanuel

[MexicanBatman]

9 minutes ago, onkeldanuel said:

Hmm, i overtorqued the v11 at first try but cant on the S22...pushed it somewhat hard uphill yesterday and beeped then at 50kph (same hill rs beeped at 40kph like v11....and Begode EX at about 50kph too)

Well I can flex my toes an overpower a S22 at 20km/h on flat ground

 

much harder than on a S18 but about the same as a monster pro

 

except the Mp24 can stop the S22 is terrible in comparison worse than a V12

 

actually only other wheel that was worse was the S18

[techyiam]

26 minutes ago, onkeldanuel said:

Hmm, i overtorqued the v11 at first try but cant on the S22...pushed it somewhat hard uphill yesterday and beeped then at 50kph (same hill rs beeped at 40kph like v11....and Begode EX at about 50kph too)

Aren't you mixing apples with oranges. You changed the topic to overleaning at higher speeds. Since the V11 has the lowest top speed among those wheels, it only make sense that it would give out earlier as speed climbs. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by techyiam

[techyiam]

22 minutes ago, Trevor Phillips said:

except the Mp24 can stop the S22 is terrible in comparison worse than a V12

Assuming you are using power pads on all the wheels, how would you rate the wheels for ease of over-torquing at roughly 5 km/h among Monster Pro, V12, S22, and V11?

[onkeldanuel]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Aren't you mixing apples with oranges. You changed the topic to overleaning at higher speeds. Since the V11 has the lowest top speed among those wheels, it only make sense that it would give out earlier as speed climbs. 

I speak of pushing steep uphill with hard leaning into torque pads which causes voltage sag / Power demand a lot....

 

And from a standstill with pendulums i cant overtorque (pedals dipping forward ) the s22 which i can easy at a v11 and (not so easy) on a EX

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by onkeldanuel

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, onkeldanuel said:

And from a standstill with pendulums i cant overtorque (pedals dipping forward ) the s22 which i can easy at a v11 and (not so easy) on a EX

From rest, which of the two wheels can you accelerate quicker to 30 km/h, V11 or S22?

[MexicanBatman]

21 minutes ago, onkeldanuel said:

I speak of pushing steep uphill with hard leaning into torque pads which causes voltage sag / Power demand a lot....

 

And from a standstill with pendulums i cant overtorque (pedals dipping forward ) the s22 which i can easy at a v11 and (not so easy) on a EX

 

They you aren’t trying 

 

as I can over torque the S22 from a dead stop quite easily

 

 

[plentora]

9 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Watch the battery percentage. It could be using that much battery, but…

That is just the voltage sag.

The battery percentage in these devices is just derived from the battery voltage. On lithium-ions that is very rough (and bad) indicator. Hope they someday start to produce bikes with actual real BMS that also calculates used energy..

[Rawnei]

The more I ride the S22 the more I'm loving it, no torque issues whatsoever which is the no.1 complaint from people who don't own one or even ridden it, it's ridiculous.

Improved slider design with minimal friction coming from several directions in the community and rumor is even KS is working on something. So the way I see it stock sliders can be fixed to be very good as is with small effort (remove rubber cleaners, apply PTFE spray, align slider rails and optional install dirt protectors) and will only improve even more over time, this is not me as a S22 owner coping, these are facts.

My three biggest personal complaints would be:

1. BMS FW needs further tuning to improve cell balancing (it needs to happen earlier in charge cycle).

2. Board FW needs to be tuned to improve tilt-back at top speed if your top speed is 70kmh (works really good at lower speeds say 30-40kmh), also it has a bug if you ride in medium mode where tilt-back doesn't go away for a while after being triggered which is a huge yikes.

3. I can't get suspension link screws out at all, they are stuck in there, tried heat and impact wrench, so I can't heighten or lower the suspension from the middle position, meanwhile other people report those screws being completely loose and too easy to remove, fml.

I feel for all the people having critical issues due to poor QC so they can't ride it but it's not all S22 as some proponents make it out to be, again it feels like people who don't even own the S22 being most vocal about this cough @techyiam cough, all new wheels have issues, all the manufactures have poor QC, all of them need to improve this aspect so we shouldn't single out any one model or manufacturer as it's really poor by all of them.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Rawnei

[onkeldanuel]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

From rest, which of the two wheels can you accelerate quicker to 30 km/h, V11 or S22?

I cant tell exactly , i have all my 4 last wheels (V11,RS,EX,S22) ridden with same tire (C186 Knobby) and from a standstill i noticed not a big difference (with the v11 stock tire its accelerating faster due to the smaller circumfence) ...Overall the S22 is by far the best i had in every aspect (and the EX has a C40-infinite torque machine), especially in fast offroad/gravel/hills up and down im used to ride.....overall V11 was good too for me

 

[fbhb]

12 hours ago, Rawnei said:

all new wheels have issues, all the manufactures have poor QC, all of them need to improve this aspect so we shouldn't single out any one model or manufacturer as it's really poor by all of them

Thank you very much for your post from an actual owner's perspective and also to mention All of the additional improvements you personally have developed for 3D printing, which you have kindly made available to other owners for FREE, which is very much appreciated!

I FULLY agree with your last statement and have echoed it many times on these forums and elsewhere, No one company can bring an EUC to market in it's first iteration without glaringly obvious flaws and the cycle unfortunately still continues year after year as the tech increases.

Poor QC is one thing, but under specced components that can and have put riders in hospital and take a huge outcry from the community and pressure applied to the company in question Only to then still have to wait months to rectify failed/faulty control boards (with some owners even now still waiting) just should not happen!

But Roll out issues Have Happened to All manufacturers, It Will continue to Happen Again and Again to All manufacturers and most models, because for as long as I have been involved in EUC's nothing in this respect has really changed with a now very long list of wheels that were flawed at release.

Wheels released from All manufacturers without issue are most definitely in the minority to my recollection if I go back to the days of the GotWay Tesla V1 and everything that has hit the market since that era.

QC is still unfortunately a low priority, getting product out of the door trumps any attempt to guarantee the product is 100% in the race to beat your competitors to the market place!

Edited August 27, 2022 by fbhb

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, onkeldanuel said:

I cant tell exactly , i have all my 4 last wheels (V11,RS,EX,S22) ridden with same tire (C186 Knobby) and from a standstill i noticed not a big difference

Thank you for your reply.

Hmmm. The RS-19 should stand out under acceleration. Perhaps you are not one who accelerates hard?

2 hours ago, onkeldanuel said:

the EX has a C40-infinite torque machine),

Just curious about this. Due to the large diameter wheel, people has said that the torque is difficult to access. 

Under what riding situations have you found the EX an infinite torque machine.