Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Tawpie]

6 hours ago, Guilherme said:

Hi 

I just unboxed my S22 ... and when I turned on: EEROR 27 !!!

AND in the app:BMS get no data....

Argggggg... obviously, call your reseller first.

If they'll allow it, I would open it up and unplug, inspect and replug all of the connectors just in case one got loose? IIRC, @Brendan "nog3" Halliday might know what that error means, he would surely have better advice than I can offer.

[Rawnei]

6 hours ago, Guilherme said:

Hi 

I just unboxed my S22 ... and when I turned on: EEROR 27 !!!

AND in the app:BMS get no data....

Consult with your reseller but if you are lucky it's just one of the bms cables that's not connected properly which is easy to check.

[supercurio]

I ran the V12-style stress test multiple times on my S22 unit (still unridden).

It passed!
I recommend this test on any new wheel - any model. Here's how to do it on an S22.

 

[Tawpie]

3 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I ran the V12-style stress test multiple times on my S22 unit (still unridden).

It passed!
I recommend this test on any new wheel - any model. Here's how to do it on an S22.

 

That would have wrecked my back. Great demo. And you are a much wiser person than I, no way I'm eager to risk a toy I've been waiting a solid year to play with!

What's the 'banging' noise—sounds like a pneumatic roofing nailer? An electronic backfire? (I know, somebody's going to say 'skipped magnet', but is it really a skipped magnet?)

[5Cauac]

@supercurio Jeezus!! That felt like watching a new born teeter on the edge of a cliff!!  Excuse me while I wipe the sweat off my hands. 

The S22 may have passed the stress test but I sure as hell didn't. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by 5Cauac

[supercurio]

15 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

That would have wrecked my back. Great demo. And you are a much wiser person than I, no way I'm eager to risk a toy I've been waiting a solid year to play with!

Thanks, it's pretty easy to do with the S22 because it has two great handles well spaced, so it doesn't take much effort to yank the wheel. Much easier than the V12 IMO.

Best to risk failing this test and asking for a replacement board that being stuck with a motor that resists turning in the middle of the forest!

15 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

What's the 'banging' noise—sounds like a pneumatic roofing nailer? An electronic backfire? (I know, somebody's going to say 'skipped magnet', but is it really a skipped magnet?)

The banging noise is 100% the motor. It feels like when the controller gets a grip back on the magnets, that's kind of brutal but if that can prevent an overlean... I'm not against it! It could be uncomfortable tho depending on your power pads configuration. Nothing that can't be controlled with my puny arms so it's not really alarming.

Adam / Wrong way had the same sound when going up stairs. 

 

@5Cauac the sound makes it a bit scary, but nothing crazy in real life to execute. Actually I'm used to doing almost the same to get rid of snow and dirt on my Sherman during winter before going indoors.

Edited August 2, 2022 by supercurio

[5Cauac]

6 minutes ago, supercurio said:

the sound makes it a bit scary, but nothing crazy in real life to execute. Actually I'm used to doing almost the same to get rid of snow and dirt on my Sherman during winter before going indoors.

It was most definitely the sounds that make watching the procedure cringe worthy. I've done the same with me wheels for mud and such but never as aggressively. I usually let it slow down a bit before going the other direction. 

11 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Best to risk failing this test and asking for a replacement board that being stuck with a motor that resists turning in the middle of the forest!

Agree whole heartedly, It's not fun having to drag a wheel back or hoping it survived the night in the place you stashed it so you can retrieve it the next day. 

[EMA]

43 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

That would have wrecked my back. Great demo. And you are a much wiser person than I, no way I'm eager to risk a toy I've been waiting a solid year to play with!

What's the 'banging' noise—sounds like a pneumatic roofing nailer? An electronic backfire? (I know, somebody's going to say 'skipped magnet', but is it really a skipped magnet?)

seems like that, it's the same sound you hear when people climbing stairs

[nitecrawlr]

Ewheels Update:
"""
Hi,

We have a couple S22 containers that have landed at the LA port, just waiting to clear Customs, it might be another week or two...
Reviewing the current backorder list, there's still several hundred deposits on the S22, which will be processed on a first-placed-first-shipped basis. Your August deposit should be included in these first rounds.

 

Thanks,

Ewheels

"""

 

my pre order date was 8/23/21

[meepmeepmayer]

Does anybody know what KS is doing all the time? People pre-ordered a year ago, that's insane!

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Does anybody know what KS is doing all the time? People pre-ordered a year ago, that's insane!

And during this time there have been individuals who have developed and fabricated dust guards, fender wells to protect the sliders, and rolling element sliders, and yet Kingsong continues to use the same sliders with heavy grease as befoe. Go figure.

[Tawpie]

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Does anybody know what KS is doing all the time? People pre-ordered a year ago, that's insane!

To us members of the peanut gallery, it should all be very simple—print a solution and voilá, it's in production. The production rate off the Ender 3 pro is 1 unit a day and looks like a 3D print, but whatever... right?

In the trenches it's altogether not that simple, and a stop ship is never the time to be making design changes. The supply chain is in motion, the line is wet. You have to use the inventory you paid for before you can roll changes in, unless you've built sufficient profit into your wholesale pricing.

Batch 1 will be batch 1, even when it's late to deliver.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Tawpie

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

In the trenches it's altogether not that simple, and a stop ship is never the time to be making design changes. The supply chain is in motion, the line is wet. You have to use the inventory you paid for before you can roll changes in, unless you've built sufficient profit into your wholesale pricing.

Me thinks that is probably what second and third tier engineering management types tell themselves so they can sleep at night. The first tier team engineers would never have sign off that so called slider design in the first place, for example. You got to catch it in the design stage. If you don't start fires  you won't have to fight fires.

[Tawpie]

Yeah. You really do want to catch it in design and if people weren't involved it might be just that simple. I'm pretty certain nobody wanted a design output that would get gummed up, and equally certain they believed they had a workable compromise. And the first tier Engineering team's signatures are on the drawings. Guaranteed. The close tolerances of the S18 proved to be somewhat of a disaster, so I'm pretty sure they went Volkswagen (pre-1960 VW!). Different, should be better for most, will certainly not be great for some. But it's cheap and for the most part functional. Now that we are starting to see some time accrued by real people, KS Engineering can make decisions about changes they want to make. Maybe even incorporate some of the makers' ideas (not holding my breath though). Might do nothing at all. Might start S16's slider design from scratch again. If it were me, I'd advocate for waiting and collecting data. Then see what if anything needs to be addressed and make a targeted change. 

You might sense that I tend to give product designers a fair bit of slack. What they're doing is really difficult, and by the time the actual thing gets into our hands it's far too late. So you iterate into the next design and gradually things get better and better.

[techyiam]

25 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I'm pretty certain nobody wanted a design output that would get gummed up, and equally certain they believed they had a workable compromise. And the first tier Engineering team's signatures are on the drawings. Guaranteed. The close tolerances of the S18 proved to be somewhat of a disaster, so I'm pretty sure they went Volkswagen (pre-1960 VW!).

I remember reading your post early on regarding the sliders. You were concerned about the open nature of the slider design. You easily spotted that flaw. I think most people who have maintain their own bicycle or motorcycle chains would know better. On top of that, the high stiction. What a disaster. Basically Kingsong doesn't have somebody with the right credentials. So what we are seeing are blind attempts. 

 

42 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Different, should be better for most, will certainly not be great for some. But it's cheap and for the most part functional. Now that we are starting to see some time accrued by real people, KS Engineering can make decisions about changes they want to make. Maybe even incorporate some of the makers' ideas (not holding my breath though).

@supercurio said that the S22 rides like it does not have a suspension until he hit the big stuff. 

Yes, it is a cheaply made contraption that barely functions as its intended purpose as a slider. The real solution is to hire someone with the right credentials. Full stop. It is that bad. Conceptually, a slider is just tube something sliding inside another. That is why anybody can come up with something. 

53 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

You might sense that I tend to give product designers a fair bit of slack. What they're doing is really difficult, and by the time the actual thing gets into our hands it's far too late. So you iterate into the next design and gradually things get better and better. 

I don't see it that way. The crux of the problem was either in the hiring, or in the task assignment process. It really isn't a management style related issue. If you don't fix it at the source, it will continue to hobble your product line for many years to come.

[UniVehje]

13 minutes ago, techyiam said:

@supercurio said that the S22 rides like it does not have a suspension until he hit the big stuff. 

Yes, it is a cheaply made contraption that barely functions as its intended purpose as a slider. The real solution is to hire someone with the right credentials. Full stop. It is that bad. Conceptually, a slider is just tube something sliding inside another. That is why anybody can come up with something. 

You’re not wrong when saying there are problems with the slider design. But it’s not that bad when new and clean. The biggest reason for it feeling like nit doing anything is too stiff coil. People who have changed that report a well working suspension. I know it could be better still, but you make it sound far worse than it really is. 

[fbhb]

33 minutes ago, techyiam said:

@supercurio said that the S22 rides like it does not have a suspension until he hit the big stuff. 

@supercurio made that comment after riding his friend @Rawnei's S22, which was set up with the stock 750lbs spring for a rider some 30lbs heavier than @supercurio.

He has ONLY just got his own S22 and plans on changing the spring to 550lbs, after his initial checks and set up procedures, so your quote is taken completely out of context!

Keeping the sliders clean is very easy and cheaply achieved with the various solutions being made available from owners around the globe, with @Rawnei himself 3D printing mods too!

Edited August 3, 2022 by fbhb

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

You’re not wrong when saying there are problems with the slider design. But it’s not that bad when new and clean. The biggest reason for it feeling like nit doing anything is too stiff coil. People who have changed that report a well working suspension. I know it could be better still, but you make it sound far worse than it really is. 

Exactly. You are looking from a "glass is half full" POV. With some work, yes, you can indeed make it function better. You can say that with any slider design. From a design and assembly POV, it is a bad design. There shouldn't be a need for such high maintenance too.

Would you have bought your car if you had to rebuild your suspension every month?

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, fbhb said:

@supercurio made that comment after riding his friend @Rawnei's S22, which was set up with the stock 750lbs spring for a rider some 30kgs heavier than @supercurio.

He has ONLY just got his own S22 and plans on changing the spring to 550lbs, after his initial checks and set up procedures, so your quote is taken completely out of context!

I have also watched echo-drift life's video on the subject of how to reduce stiction in the S22's sliders. There is even an individual who even made a slider for the S22 with rolling elements. It is widely know that the S22 has serious stiction problems. Wrong spring sizing can just compound the problem.

It is a bad design. But that is not to say no owners will be OK with it. Even you have said you would work on your S22's sliders to improve on it, in an earlier post.

[UniVehje]

16 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Exactly. You are looking from a "glass is half full" POV. With some work, yes, you can indeed make it function better. You can say that with any slider design. From a design and assembly POV, it is a bad design. There shouldn't be a need for such high maintenance too.

Would you have bought your car if you had to rebuild your suspension every month?

I was talking about changing the coil. I don't consider that work, rather basic setup. Just like pumping up air shock. Didn't say anything about sliders. 

You're really on a mission here!

[techyiam]

8 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I was talking about changing the coil. I don't consider that work, rather basic setup.

 

38 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

But it’s not that bad when new and clean.

How long does it stay clean and new?

[techyiam]

43 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

You're really on a mission here!

No mission. Simply rehashing in a post on this forum what "echo-drift life" have pointed out in their videos. It is a bad design. But some owners may not mind it. You may be one of those. 

 

Ecodrift-life video on S22 slider. Time-stamped. 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by techyiam

[Rawnei]

29 minutes ago, techyiam said:

No mission. Simply rehashing in a post on this forum what "echo-drift life" have pointed out in their videos. It is a bad design. But some owners may not mind it. You may be one of those.

Yes you been saying the same thing for months now, what's your endgame? Just keep repeating it ad infinitum?

[enaon]

I actually like the design of s22's suspension system, time will tell if indeed it is easy to get worn out if maintained.  

 

[Paul g]

14 hours ago, supercurio said:

I ran the V12-style stress test multiple times on my S22 unit (still unridden).

It passed!
I recommend this test on any new wheel - any model. Here's how to do it on an S22.

 

Some better news! Enjoy riding it! Sweden is so beautiful, so many bicycle paths! I can only wish London was the same!