Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

Liking this wheel more and more and can't really relate to all the negative critique that I've heard, this is a great wheel.

I wonder if the batches are getting better?

[enaon]

can you all new s22 owner please concentrate on flaws and reasons you dislike the wheel?

show some sportsmanship, feel for all of us reading how amazing the wheel is, with no hope of getting one before this summer ends.

Edited July 29, 2022 by enaon

[Tawpie]

I noticed the stock tire doesn't have raised white lettering. That's really disappointing, especially on a wheel as expensive as this.

[UniVehje]

8 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Did a bunch of jumps in the skatepark and I think the 750lb spring is suitable for my weight

Have you measured sag already?

[Rawnei]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

I wonder if the batches are getting better?

Maybe, no clonking sounds or such from the suspension that we've seen on early videos, motor also sounds pleasant, overall it's a quiet and pleasant sounding wheel.

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

Have you measured sag already?

Nope not yet, just played around with dampening and rebound settings so far, also need to take it apart at some point to apply PTFE and some slider protectors (also working on a design for that).

  

8 hours ago, Julian-NZ said:

How much do you weigh?
I'm still waiting for mine to arrive.

As I wrote above a few kgs below 100kg geared up.

  

7 hours ago, enaon said:

can you all new s22 owner please concentrate on flaws and reasons you dislike the wheel?

show some sportsmanship, feel for all of us reading how amazing the wheel is, with no hope of getting one before this summer ends.

I don't like the stock seat you can focus on that and not read the rest.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Rawnei

[supercurio]

I've been riding with @Rawnei and his S22 a couple times now, and he encouraged me to try it as well, appreciated 

Indeed the suspension sounds much better than what I expected from all the the video, and the motor is quiet (no whistle like the Sherman Max) at low speed and starts to sound a little mean when pushed, in a cool futuristic way. When he was jumping and landing in the skate park, it made a sound like shutting the door on an high end car. Solid, very well damped.

I'm lighter (72kg naked) and for me, the stock suspension with @Rawnei settings doesn't seem to do much if anything when riding on street. It only takes the edge off or unexpected roots or potholes stuff like that, but you're still connected to the road like on a non-suspension wheel.
However in the skate park, going up or down small stairs it's pretty impressive, it's not that soft and cushy but the dampening is very effective.

I'm very much looking to try technical off-roading - when I get mine. However I'm concerned that there might be too much friction or dampening, including on compression for the suspension to be as quick as I'd like.

Regarding pedal height, with the new stock middle setting It was a non-issue for me from the first try. I found easier to handle the height than when trying a V11 which felt very awkward. I didn't like the V11 height, suspension overall and I find the stock V11 tire awful in its turning behavior as well, combined with the height. None of that with the S22.
I can't tell much about the S22 tire yet, aside from it being quieter than you'd expect.

Edited July 29, 2022 by supercurio

[Miko.cz]

10 hours ago, enaon said:

can you all new s22 owner please concentrate on flaws and reasons you dislike the wheel?

show some sportsmanship, feel for all of us reading how amazing the wheel is, with no hope of getting one before this summer ends.

owned from yesterday, because of my ankle running on 85%, able to ride only 3km on flat surface. I have only very little experience with big EUC before.
85kg with gear.

Tons of positive things, but lets be it and here are negatives:

1. *censored* original KS app - it hates Android 9 and freezes (no wheel unlock, no fw update). Solved by phone with Android 11. grrr
2. EUC World - probably limited support (no new fw available here. Some settings shared, such as side leds, BT speakers etc thats are not used there, missing log download support from EUC and probably some other things. I will play with it)
3. front lights vaporize everything (max tilt to ground), it cannot be used in winter morning/evening on cyclopaths.
   I was unable to find any settings that can reduce light intensity (but FW do it, because when speed is changing 3->0->3km/h, light is changing intensity automaticaly)
4. distributor checked screws and tighten some
5. My city car trunk is full of S22
6. EUC is really rolling backward a bit if just rest standing at smooth wall
7. weight 16S x 2: walk speed is harder for balance, start/stops needs recalibration of my legs, turn radius needs practise
8. missing velcro on stock pads. Its possible to reposition them (very slow detach force)
9. top seat is... i dont know, just for temporary foot resting. Its more bumper. But I need more experience.
10. New EUC smells terrible (new tyre probably )
11. squeeky handle (will be solved easily)
12. pedestrians shows more respect/fear
13. connector of charger cable is a bit lax (connector in socket is moving), not a catastrophe, but I just dont like too much freedom of connectors (same with connector to EUC, cannot be locked when charging)
14. LEDs on power supply looks cheap (scratched and looks like a big hammer was used on putting them in)
15. Maybe spring is too hard, not sure yet

Edited July 29, 2022 by Miko.cz

[supercurio]

14 minutes ago, Miko.cz said:

front lights vaporize everything (max tilt to ground), it cannot be used in winter morning/evening on cyclopaths.
I was unable to find any settings that can reduce light intensity (but FW do it, because when speed is changing 3->0->3km/h, light is changing intensity automaticaly)

Thanks for the report @Miko.cz!

Yes when facing the S22, even at rider height (so above pedestrian height) the headlight is awfully blinding.

• Positive: everybody will see you which is good for your safety
• Negative: they won't see anything else, which is bad for safety in general

Adam/Wrong Way didn't exaggerate. Be prepared to find another headlight.
It should be fine as flood-light for off-road tho - but that's it.

Edited July 29, 2022 by supercurio

[techyiam]

20 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I've been riding with @Rawnei and his S22 a couple times now, and he encouraged me to try it as well, appreciated 

Did you have a chance to ride at higher speeds? Even if not, how was your feeling regarding stability, when compared to the Sherman Max?

[supercurio]

9 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Did you have a chance to ride at higher speeds? Even if not, how was your feeling regarding stability, when compared to the Sherman Max?

No high speed for me (only when I get my own wheel with well adjusted setup 😄) , but @Rawnei tried yesterday evening. Fundamentally tho the tire will define 95% of the feeling of stability at speed.
I can already tell that S22 with 75% battery is a significantly faster than Sherman Max at 35% battery (and Max is slower than OG).

Oh and on the first day we tried the S22 titlback at low speed, it deployed super slow, and also took forever to disengage even once stopped. Unless it's different at higher speed I'd say it's ineffective, broken and buggy. Make sure you hear the beeps on the S22.

Edited July 29, 2022 by supercurio

[Rawnei]

33 minutes ago, Miko.cz said:

1. EUC is really rolling backward a bit if just rest standing at smooth wall
2. top seat is... i dont know, just for temporary foot resting. Its more bumper. But I need more experience.
3. squeeky handle (will be solved easily)
4. connector of charger cable is a bit lax (connector in socket is moving), not a catastrophe, but I just dont like too much freedom of connectors (same with connector to EUC, cannot be locked when charging)

1. Setting 1 degree forward angle solves that

2. Agree, I'm working on improvements though it could turn out much better in the end.

3. Mine is nto squeaky!

4. Ah right, the charging, it's a fiddle to get started, getting the charge cover off takes a lot of fiddling as it sits very tight.

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, supercurio said:

tho the tire will define 95% of the feeling of stability at speed.

Even so, given that both were on stock tires, how would you compare the two for stability, and planted-ness feeling? 

[supercurio]

@techyiam I'm supposed to get mine on August 3 and should be able to answer that after learning the wheel, riding it some.. then contradicting half of what I said at the end of the honeymoon period 😅

Edited July 29, 2022 by supercurio

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, supercurio said:

techyiam I'm supposed to get mine on August 3 and should be able to answer that after learning the wheel, riding it some.. then contradicting half of what I said at the end of the honeymoon period 😅

Fair enough. Thanks.

[UniVehje]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

I'm lighter (72kg naked) and for me, the stock suspension with @Rawnei settings doesn't seem to do much if anything when riding on street. It only takes the edge off or unexpected roots or potholes stuff like that, but you're still connected to the road like on a non-suspension wheel.

 

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

However I'm concerned that there might be too much friction or dampening, including on compression for the suspension to be as quick as I'd like.

I'm the same weight and got a 300 lbs coil for it (haven't tried yet). That spring is way too heavy for you. It's all about having a correct sag. So far I have collected two data points. One 85 kg rider with 4mm sag and another 100 kg rider with 10-12 mm sag on the original 750 lbs coil. There might be too much stiction also but the bigger issue is too stiff spring for most riders. Of course it's possible that the correct sag cannot be measured reliably if stiction affects it. 

[Rawnei]

I think it would have made more sense to ship it with a 500-650 spring for majority of riders even if I'm personally happy with the 750.

[techyiam]

@supercurio

If you don't mind my asking, according to your profile, your V12 is on the chopping block. I am somewhat curious, especially when other riders from European countries have been insisting that the uses cases in Europe don't need high speed wheels. And here you are with the Sherman Max (high speed stability king), and disposing the V12, a very capable agile wheel. I am simply perplexed. 🙂

[techyiam]

31 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I think it would have made more sense to ship it with a 500-650 spring for majority of riders even if I'm personally happy with the 750.

What is ironic is that Jack ex-Kingsong complained in his review video that he could not persuade Kingsong to put in a 1000 lbs spring for production.

[UniVehje]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

What is ironic is that Jack ex-Kingsong complained in his review video that he could not persuade Kingsong to put in a 1000 lbs spring for production.

Yeah, KS knew better and wanted to go lower but they compromised and now it’s not really good for anyone. Maybe heavier jumpers are fine with it. Everyone else either have bad experience or must buy a new spring that are not easy to figure out. 

[techyiam]

27 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Yeah, KS knew better and wanted to go lower but they compromised and now it’s not really good for anyone. Maybe heavier jumpers are fine with it. Everyone else either have bad experience or must buy a new spring that are not easy to figure out. 

My other thought was maybe because of the high stiction (quasi damping, since it is not speed sensitive), they had to use a high spring rate to mask the flaw.

[supercurio]

3 hours ago, UniVehje said:

I'm the same weight and got a 300 lbs coil for it (haven't tried yet). That spring is way too heavy for you. It's all about having a correct sag. So far I have collected two data points. One 85 kg rider with 4mm sag and another 100 kg rider with 10-12 mm sag on the original 750 lbs coil. There might be too much stiction also but the bigger issue is too stiff spring for most riders. Of course it's possible that the correct sag cannot be measured reliably if stiction affects it. 

It felt pretty good for high jumps, and skate park stuff as it is!
But good point, the sag might not be enough to really provide the traction desired off-road, as without sufficient sag the suspension can't push the tire down into holes.

I guess a lighter spring will improve things in terms of sag - and everything else for street and off-road. Then when playing in skate parks, increasing the compression dampening should be sufficient to avoid bottoming out.

 

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

@supercurio

If you don't mind my asking, according to your profile, your V12 is on the chopping block. I am somewhat curious, especially when other riders from European countries have been insisting that the uses cases in Europe don't need high speed wheels. And here you are with the Sherman Max (high speed stability king), and disposing the V12, a very capable agile wheel. I am simply perplexed. 🙂

Yes I'll sell the V12 after completing a pull force test! I should have the whole setup now, so I just need some time to complete it.
Really curious how it'll turn out!

I just upgraded from the OG Sherman to the Max to address the issue of burning the mainboards on heavy stress or climbs (it took me 11 days to burn the first one, oops). The Max offers more torque but loses top speed as you'd expect from a higher torque motor. Surprised nobody seemed to notice before.
I initially got the V12 as winter wheel but then, you know 😄. Overall I find the tire options available on a 14" rim a massive deciding factor compared to a 12" one.

The pull force test will hopefully also tell us if the Sherman Max or S22 has more torque, or about the same.

Edited July 29, 2022 by supercurio

[techyiam]

28 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Yes I'll sell the V12 after completing a pull force test!

Very nice of you to share your V12 pull test results, along with the Sherman Max's and S22's as well.

28 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I just upgraded from the OG Sherman to the Max to address the issue of burning the mainboards on heavy stress or climbs (it took me 11 days to burn the first one, oops). The Max offers more torque but loses top speed as you'd expect from a higher torque motor.

You basically need a wheel with more torque, but you went with the Sherman Max instead of a torque wheel. Also, you pointed out the lost of top speed. I am getting mixed messages from European riders. Do riders in Europe have opportunities to travel at high speeds? Interestingly enough, you bought the S22 instead of the Master, but you seemed to have a need for torque. I hope the S22 have the torque you seek.

28 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Overall I find the tire options available on a 14" rim a massive deciding factor compared to a 12" one.

Nope, you ain't wrong. But you just need one good tire.

28 minutes ago, supercurio said:

The pull force test will hopefully also tell us if the Sherman Max or S22 has more torque, or about the same.

It is great that you are helping to produce actual quantitative results for the wheels.

[Forwardnbak]

Mine was delayed after being on the wrong boat. Due at the store last week but i’ve heard nothing yet.

Re looking at this photo of the s22’s i can figure out which one is mine

THE VERY LAST ONE. 

I think it’s just scared to get to know me and stayed on the boat. My wife was the same

 

[supercurio]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

You basically need a wheel with more torque, but you went with the Sherman Max instead of a torque wheel.

I've been enjoying thoroughly the OG Sherman for a year, and it had enough torque for for 99.5% of my riding including off-road. I overleaned it like twice when climbing steep rocks bonking it wrong. So it's not really that I needed more torque but I wanted to be able to climb all the hills without worrying about the mainboard failing, something always on the back of my head and making lovely hills forbidden.

The Sherman Max is an interesting compromise. It lost some top end (typical beeps at 63 kph instead of 67), and gained a lot of torque. But data shows that it gained more torque than it lost top speed so 👍
When riding aggressively or steep inclines, the additional torque before its overpowered is surprisingly more than expected. Besides the top speed and headroom before overpowering the motor, the ride is almost indistinguishable tho, the programming of the hard mode is a tiny bit refined but that's it, you can't tell unless you try to overpower it. So I got what I needed, long range, no climbing limit and more torque than I can lean (for now)

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Also, you pointed out the lost of top speed. I am getting mixed messages from European riders. Do riders in Europe have opportunities to travel at high speeds?

Ah yes, most countries have fairly different regulations (or lack thereof) in Europe and then every rider their own limits and riding style. Let's say that depending on riding conditions, I'll typically lean as hard as the wheel is capable of in any given direction, and come back with an empty battery if possible.

Sweden is pretty good in terms of riding opportunities. Bike lanes (highway-like), roads, forest, single tracks, skate parks, hills and overall not a lot of people for the given infrastructure. 

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Interestingly enough, you bought the S22 instead of the Master, but you seemed to have a need for torque. I hope the S22 have the torque you seek.

About that I expected the S22 to have about the same or less torque than the OG Sherman based on various reports (like Adam/Wrong Way 40° climb, Ginger on Wheel overpowering on the hill to his home)

But when @Rawnei tried a 35° climb on a local skate park where he had the OG Sherman pedals dipping, the S22 went up without any beep, or sign of struggle. The app indicated the minimum safety margin was above 30%. Not bad! 
We know KS didn't change the motor hardware; did they increase the maximum phase current limits in the latest firmware?

That's why it'll be very interesting to get the pull force data! soon 😁
Although the controller protection might get in the way of measuring it, we'll see.
 

Edited July 29, 2022 by supercurio

[Rawnei]

Did more skatepark jumping today, it's really fun, overshooting a tabletop by far and landing on flat surface and it's like nothing, suspension just soaks it up, also gives you more courage knowing that you will get a soft landing regardless.

All the discussion about torque I think is a bit misguided, the real question is what can the wheel not do? What challenges can't it overcome and what limitations will that mean for me? So far I'm not finding a lot of limitations for myself, I haven't gone super technical off-road yet so will see how that turns out but going up long-stepped stairs, really steep slopes and such it handles it really good and the wheel feels strong.