Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Rawnei]

15 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Have you measured sag already?

Have you seen best methodology to adjust sag on the S22?

[dycus]

26 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Have you seen best methodology to adjust sag on the S22?

You can't adjust sag on a coil shock, you need to change the coil. Tightening the preload doesn't change the spring rate, just makes it harder to initially compress the spring. This can cause a harsher ride feel as well.

[Rawnei]

59 minutes ago, dycus said:

You can't adjust sag on a coil shock, you need to change the coil. Tightening the preload doesn't change the spring rate, just makes it harder to initially compress the spring. This can cause a harsher ride feel as well.

Ah, so is there any reason to tighten it? Should it just be at max setting?

[dycus]

28 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Ah, so is there any reason to tighten it? Should it just be at max setting?

Tighten the preload nut just enough to keep the coil from moving or rattling, then add 1-2 more full turns. Make sure the suspension is fully uncompressed (wheel on its side) when doing this. If it's hard to turn the nut, try spinning the whole coil along with it.

I believe it only needs to be tight enough to keep the nut from loosening. Just check it every once in a while.

Edited July 30, 2022 by dycus

[supercurio]

@Rawnei this video explains fairly well preload and sag. By the way the whole channel has very good videos for rebound dampening and spring rate vs adjusting compression damping. Highly recommended watch!

 

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

Let's say that depending on riding conditions, I'll typically lean as hard as the wheel is capable of in any given direction, and come back with an empty battery if possible.

Sweden is pretty good in terms of riding opportunities. Bike lanes (highway-like), roads, forest, single tracks, skate parks, hills and overall not a lot of people for the given infrastructure. 

Thank you for your detailed reply.

Your comment above summed it up quite well for me. I can see why you got yourself a Sherman (Max) now.

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

So it's not really that I needed more torque but I wanted to be able to climb all the hills without worrying about the mainboard failing, something always on the back of my head and making lovely hills forbidden.

I see. You basically were after headroom, but instead of top speed, you wanted for torque. 

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

I expected the S22 to have about the same or less torque than the OG Sherman based on various reports (like Adam/Wrong Way 40° climb,

If I remember correctly, Wrongway said on slopes with poor traction is where the S20/22 seem to struggle. I think Ginger on Wheels had issues climbing on loose dirt up a slope too.

[Freeforester]

I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall some mention of adjusting the spring tension ‘after bedding-in period’: are some spring steels less springy than others?      I do recall from my youth that air rifle springs could wear out after so many compression-release cycles, and was just wondering whether the spring on these coil shock absorbers may need replacement after some years?

Asking for “a non-metallurgist, fuller-figured friend”, of 100kg lol!

[Rawnei]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

If I remember correctly, Wrongway said on slopes with poor traction is where the S20/22 seem to struggle. I think Ginger on Wheels had issues climbing on loose dirt up a slope too.

Climbing on steep loose dirt can be difficult for any wheel but not because of lack of torque because if the tire starts slipping it's a slippery slope (pun intended), it leads to the tire bouncing, motor gaining speed, pedals tilting, you tilting with the pedals so on, in those scenarios you try to power through and hope for the best but if the wheel can not regain traction nothing will save the situation, in this scenario perhaps the S22 will have a smaller margin before cutting the motor compared to say a Begode C38 wheel but I don't think it matters because if you already lost so much traction for that to happen you wouldn't regain it anyway. Tire is more important in this scenario, for instance the knobby Kenda 262 is very poor for this kind of scenarios because it digs in and spits out the dirt and loses traction instead, a street tire is probably better.

So if we discount this situation the question is how steep and how long can we climb? So far S22 seems strong enough to climb so it becomes a question of heat, will it overheat on long climbs or not?

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

will it overheat on long climbs or not?

EEVEES did go with Marty to Overheat Hill to test the S20/22. And it did not run hot. I don't remember reading anyone complaining about overheating with the S20/22. I guess you will find out first hand eventually. 

[Rawnei]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

EEVEES did go with Marty to Overheat Hill to test the S20/22. And it did not run hot. I don't remember reading anyone complaining about overheating with the S20/22. I guess you will find out first hand eventually. 

Yeah but that hill is just very long but not very steep, it's good to test prolonged power draw but will not stress the wheel that much in the moment, we have some very steep and technical hills around here in Stockholm that we use for stress testing eventually I will go up those and check but I have to get comfortable with pad placement, design and print the extra bumpers I have planned for the wheel in case of dropping it and all such things first.

[Tasku]

12 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

, will it overheat on long climbs or not?

 

1 minute ago, techyiam said:

EEVEES did go with Marty to Overheat Hill to test the S20/22. And it did not run hot. I don't remember reading anyone complaining about overheating with the S20/22. I guess you will find out first hand eventually. 

Try repeating what "some invidual" did in murica, torque torture it during hill climb. Repeat often during the skislope and don't forget the camera! Maybe take some firefighting gear just in case?


(or don't but waiting for more DjRonnie videos! I can see the s22 testing already happening with numbers flying around in wickedly cool videoedit and killer track shaking my "ögönen" with bass massage. Giev.avi!)

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Yeah but that hill is just very long but not very steep, it's good to test prolonged power draw but will not stress the wheel that much in the moment, we have some very steep and technical hills around here in Stockholm that we use for stress testing eventually I will go up those and check but I have to get comfortable with pad placement,

Holy moly, a more stressful test. Until recently, many euc's had overheating issues on Marty's Overheat Hill stress test. 

Just curious. If you happened to have tested the V12 on your Overheat Hill stress test, how did it do?

[Rawnei]

5 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Holy moly, a more stressful test. Until recently, many euc's had overheating issues on Marty's Overheat Hill stress test. 

Just curious. If you happened to have tested the V12 on your Overheat Hill stress test, how did it do?

I don't do that sort of things on the V12 as it's my girlfriends wheel, I barely ride it at all, @supercurio gone up all sorts of steep hills with the Max though.

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

@supercurio gone up all sorts of steep hills with the Max though

That is why he needs torque. Good to know that the Sherman Max got that part right.

[supercurio]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Yeah but that hill is just very long but not very steep, it's good to test prolonged power draw but will not stress the wheel that much in the moment, we have some very steep and technical hills around here in Stockholm that we use for stress testing eventually I will go up those and check but I have to get comfortable with pad placement, design and print the extra bumpers I have planned for the wheel in case of dropping it and all such things first.

Gotta climb Flottsbro soon again! 😁 Next time I'll try with my 16X which also runs pretty cool.
I expect the S22 to remain really chill thanks to its unprecedented thermal inertia. An actual mountain, 300+ meters of elevation is probably required to get it warm.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

That is why he needs torque. Good to know that the Sherman Max got that part right.

Yes some torque (I'm not that heavy and know how to feather the throttle) but above all, the ability to use that torque without the board self-destructing due to poor dimensioning of some PCB traces or something like that - if using only some of the available torque for more than a few seconds.

Kingsong wheels seem pretty good on that. Boards don't cook themselves to death and plenty of temperature sensors!

Edited July 30, 2022 by supercurio

[enaon]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

EEVEES did go with Marty to Overheat Hill to test the S20/22. And it did not run hot. I don't remember reading anyone complaining about overheating with the S20/22. I guess you will find out first hand eventually. 

Temperatures on Kingsongs are unbelievable low. They are so unbelievable, that the wheel is actually 6-8 celcius bellow room temperature when first turned on, and keeps just under ambient temp while on. I have seen it both on 16s and s18.

Yet, I believed them. I cannot understand why, but I did.

In any case, I used a infrared probe to measure the heatsink, 8 Celsius difference at rest on the s18.
it is still very good, but it is not magic after all, just misreporting. 

[techyiam]

56 minutes ago, enaon said:

I used a infrared probe to measure the heatsink, 8 Celsius difference at rest on the s18.

How do you know your probe is more accurate? 🙂

Also it could be worse. Were you probing the same location?

[enaon]

9 minutes ago, techyiam said:

How do you know your probe is more accurate? 🙂

Also it could be worse. Were you probing the same location?

perfect question.

The probe is accurate, but I don't want to get burned alive for bringing disturbing news, so I it may not be. 

also, the motor temperature reading is fake am afraid, I did a bearings swap and added the motor temp on the watch to have a look, well, the same as heatsink temp. i will need a bit more time to verify this.

 

ps: this is s18 related, sorry for posting here, it is just that I know more ks guys will see it here and confirm.

Edited July 30, 2022 by enaon

[Paul g]

Noticed the same misreporting on my V12. Anyway, thanks for the info. 

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Paul g said:

Noticed the same misreporting on my V12. Anyway, thanks for the info. 

How is it misreported? And which temperatures? 

[Paul g]

I don’t remember exactly, so I won’t try to give wrong info, but was lower several degrees C, and was different for motor and battery I think. If you have a V12 you can turn on in the morning  (after having it inside the house at constant temp all night) and check all temps. Then you will noticed they are not the same- though it should be obviously.

Edit: some of the temps were close to reality, some less.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Paul g

[techyiam]

10 minutes ago, Paul g said:

I don’t remember exactly, so I won’t try to give wrong info, but was lower several degrees C, and was different for motor and battery I think. If you have a V12 you can turn on in the morning  (after having it inside the house at constant temp all night) and check all temps. Then you will noticed they are not the same- though it should be obviously.

Edit: some of the temps were close to reality, some less.

I see. For me, when I monitor the various temperatures, I find that the relative differences are logical for now I rode it. The mosfet temperatures are always the highest. The board temperatures are somewhat less. And the motor temperatures depends how it was used.

[techyiam]

I just turned on my V12. All the temperatures were essentially the same at startup. The motor temperature was 1C lower than the board. The CPU temperature was climbing. The motor temperature was lowest and steady. Makes sense since the wheel was stationary not being ridden. The mosfet temperature was gradually going up. I didn't have a thermometer with me at the time, but I would say the initial, just turned-on temperatures were in the right ballpark. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by techyiam

[enaon]

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I just turned on my V12. All the temperatures were essentially the same at startup. The motor temperature was 1C lower than the board. The CPU temperature was climbing. The motor temperature was lowest and steady. Makes sense since the wheel was stationary not being ridden. The mosfet temperature was gradually going up. I didn't have a thermometer with me at the time, but I would say the initial just turned-on temperatured were in the right ballpark. 

just curiosity, were they close to ambient on start? how many degrees over ambient will the mosfet temp settle at when left on, but standing on the wall for say 5min?

Edited July 30, 2022 by enaon

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, enaon said:

just curiosity, were they close to ambient on start? how many degrees over ambient will the mosfet temp settle at when left on, but standing on the wall for say 5min?

I don't have the ambient temp yet.

After approximately 5 minutes leaning against a wall: 

Temperatures 

Motor   22C    didn't change 

Board   27C

Mosfet 34C

CPU      37C