INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[Seba]

 

19 minutes ago, Planemo said:

As soon as you go parallel you are going to have the cathodes and anodes of those cells joined together. So chucking a multimeter on them won't show the individual cell voltages, only the string voltage.

Cells connected in paralell will always have the same voltage, so in fact you're getting individual cell voltage readings from a Z10 smart BMS.

[Planemo]

20 minutes ago, Seba said:

 

Cells connected in paralell will always have the same voltage, so in fact you're getting individual cell voltage readings from a Z10 smart BMS.

You're not getting an accurate reading of the individual cell health though. What a cell can sustain on it's own and what it can do when paralleled up are two different things. Tested individually, one cell might be unhealthy enough to not make more than 2.5v, the other two cells might make 4.21v. So you read 10.92v and it's assumed all cells are 3.64v (77% charged). I know you know this though.

Yes we could say that as the string would never reach full voltage, we would know that at least one of the 3 cells was duff (which is better than not knowing anything) but it's certainly not ideal in terms of battery management. It's just the way it is I guess.

[Seba]

6 minutes ago, Planemo said:

You're not getting an accurate reading of the individual cell health though. What a cell can sustain on it's own and what it can do when paralleled up are two different things. Tested individually, one cell might be unhealthy enough to not make more than 2.5v, the other two cells might make 4.21v. So you read 10.92v and it's assumed all cells are 3.64v (77% charged). I know you know this though.

You're mixing paralell and serial connections  In your example 10.92V is a total voltage measured across a string of three cells connected in series. But if you have cells connected in paralell, voltage on every cell in a group will be the same regardless of cell count and their individual condition. Ninebot Z10 BMS reads voltage of every paralell group of cells, so effectively you'll get single cell voltage reading. In short, paralell connection means the same voltage while serial connection means the same current.

[mhpr262]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The late Ninebot Z10 does show individual cell voltages.

Why the late? Have they stopped production of the Z10?

[mrelwood]

16 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

Why the late? Have they stopped production of the Z10?

Not really sure, but in my understanding official support no longer exists and spare parts are no longer manufactured. At least most distributors signed out. Combined with it’s chronic BMS issues, I consider the Z10 dead.

[mhpr262]

5 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Not really sure, but in my understanding official support no longer exists and spare parts are no longer manufactured. At least most distributors signed out. Combined with it’s chronic BMS issues, I consider the Z10 dead.

Are they still making the S2? I remember reading something to the effect that Ninebot is looking to ditch EUCs completey. That would be a serious blow to the community, to lose a whole manufacturer of that caliber, for good.

[Planemo]

2 hours ago, Seba said:

You're mixing paralell and serial connections  In your example 10.92V

Yep got mixed up there but the point I was trying to make still stands - measuring the voltage of 3 cells in parallel in no way tells you which cell is duff nor how healthy each cells is. Is it one? All three? Or one is worse but the other two are middling? Its all guesswork. That was the point I was trying to make

The fact that the Z10 does actually monitor strings and NineBatt allows us to view them is a damn sight better than most wheel manufacturers can manage though

 

[AtlasP]

On 2/6/2021 at 7:42 AM, mhpr262 said:

Why the late? Have they stopped production of the Z10?

 

On 2/6/2021 at 8:09 AM, mhpr262 said:

Are they still making the S2? I remember reading something to the effect that Ninebot is looking to ditch EUCs completey. That would be a serious blow to the community, to lose a whole manufacturer of that caliber, for good.

Ninebot has abandoned not only EUCs but the entire self-balancing space--they even stopped producing all Segways last summer.

• First they stopped selling and supporting EUCs in North America several years ago. There was lots of speculation why (some legal reasons, some business reasons) but which was never definitively confirmed and Ninebot never officially said anything. (eWheels commented about this on the forums when they dropped the Z10 due to inability to get parts/support, and Hsiang has at least one or multiple YouTube videos about this.)
• Then they stopped supporting third-party EUC distributors even outside NA/in Europe/etc. Still no official word/explanation. (Speedyfeet commented on this briefly when they dropped the Z10, can't remember where, likely in his streams and/or on YouTube.)
• Finally this past summer Ninebot very officially/formally announced ending production on all Segways. (This was all over the news/a pretty big deal, especially them not just quietly doing so but rather very-much announcing it.)

Taking the last bullet point in context with the prior non-announcements, it's pretty clear it's dead. (And the few EUCs still on some of Ninebot's international sites are likely just old stock.) We also know there is money being made hand-over-fist in scooters which have exploded, so it's no leap to conclude they're basically just doubling-down on scooters and the like.

Edited February 8, 2021 by AtlasP

[null]

Yes, sadly the rumours regarding Ninebot @Hsiang had from Taiwan two years ago seem to have been right.

[AtlasP]

On 1/29/2021 at 4:44 PM, AtlasP said:

Battery is an interesting ground to speculate over.

Knowing it will be 100.8v (24s), assuming 21700, and knowing it has to be bigger than the 1500 Wh in the V11, there's a rather finite set of options:

• 24s4p/~1800 Wh - the lowest possible answer and would still be a welcome upgrade over the 1500Wh in the V11, but is certainly pretty 'standard'/in no way evokes the Sherman (not sure how much weight to put in claims that the V12 will approach the Sherman in any meaningful way).
• 24s5p/~2250 Wh or 24s7p/~3150 Wh - Odd number of packs (5p/7p) is weird, but maybe they would do even sets on the sides and put an extra one on top with the controller (IM is no stranger to putting packs on top of the wheel and overall tall, skinny wheels). Still pretty unlikely/too arbitrary to guess/expect such a thing with any confidence. Technically 24s7p/~3150 Wh would be more exactly similar to Sherman, though (which is 3200 Wh but using 18650's).
• 24s6p/~2700 Wh - shy of the Sherman but still a massive battery, matching the forthcoming EX.N which is Begode's equivalent "Sherman competitor", and only exceeded by the Sherman and Monster Pro. If I had to guess and if the V12 is indeed supposed to be a Sherman competitor, this would be my vote for most likely answer.
• 24s8p/~3600 Wh - just absolutely massive and seems unlikely to me coming from IM. This is the only option that would technically truly exceed the Sherman however.

My guess/prediction is either 24s4p if not a Sherman competitor or 24s6p if it is aiming to be a Sherman competitor. Either way, 100.8v speeds and either 1800Wh or 2700Wh from IM would be a major development.

The plot thickens! 'InMotion Global' has liked my comment (quoted here) in which I speculated on battery size. Does that corroborate my 24s6p hypothesis? ;-p

[Simply_Striking]

I'm just here for the v12 rumors, hoping it turns out to be something that can replace my RS..

[Unventor]

3 hours ago, Simply_Striking said:

I'm just here for the v12 rumors, hoping it turns out to be something that can replace my RS..

Just out of curiosity what is it you like to change to your current wheel? 

[RagingGrandpa]

On 2/5/2021 at 2:04 PM, mhpr262 said:

A real, external backup battery would be nice. A 20s2p pack, all ready wrapped in a protected, hard shell backpack

We can do that in the aftermarket too...
It sounds like you prefer parallel connection. I like charge-and-ride. Both work.

But Inmotion does not allow charge-and-ride with today's firmware

@Inmotion Global please let us ride while charging the V12!

[Unventor]

26 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

We can do that in the aftermarket too...
It sounds like you prefer parallel connection. I like charge-and-ride. Both work.

But Inmotion does not allow charge-and-ride with today's firmware

@Inmotion Global please let us ride while charging the V12!

Well Inmotion has hinted to look into swappable batteries. If that is ready for V12 remains to be seen. 

It was hinted in this Q&A video when talking about bms. 

 

[Simply_Striking]

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

Just out of curiosity what is it you like to change to your current wheel? 

I don't like how loud the fan is. I know 😼 not hear it while riding but when trolling it it sounds like draws a lot of attention. I am also scared to let it get wet, to many ways for water to get inside. Gotway does not put a lot of thought into their design either.

[Kekafuch]

7 hours ago, Unventor said:

Well Inmotion has hinted to look into swappable batteries. If that is ready for V12 remains to be seen. 

It was hinted in this Q&A video when talking about bms. 

 

It is just a design thing. Can and should be done. At least for extended range capability. The V8F battery is incased in plastic like a brick. The shell comes off with 2 screws to expose the battery. If someone had multiple batterie, it is a 5-10 minute change out.

[Jon Stern]

2 hours ago, Simply_Striking said:

I don't like how loud the fan is. I know 😼 not hear it while riding but when trolling it it sounds like draws a lot of attention.

I thought trolls craved attention?

[AtlasP]

9 hours ago, Unventor said:

Well Inmotion has hinted to look into swappable batteries. If that is ready for V12 remains to be seen. 

It was hinted in this Q&A video when talking about bms. 

While I'm looking forward to this functionality in a wheel, I doubt we'll see it on something like the V12. I think it makes more sense to start with swappable batteries on smaller wheels as a possible solution to traveling with them.

Edited February 12, 2021 by AtlasP

[Bomfy M]

Hi there!
My first post  
@Inmotion Global this is my perfect wheel:
1. 16*3" tire
2. No suspension, because of weight savings
3. No speakers. More simple electronics, lighter wheel. If you need music just buy JBL speaker
4. Weight around 20kg, lighter is better
5. 1000wh battary. 
6. 2000w motor, and powerfull controller
7. I am not a speed deamon, so 40km/h is ok fo me. I prefer torque over speed
8. Round shape shell, for more shell protection if wheel overlean. Not like msx square shape or 16x. No sharp edges like tesla, more comfort wheel.
9. Power pads must come with the wheel. Almost evereyone buy aftermarket pads, so why not complete the product with what the buyer wants?
10. Battary indicator from v8/v10 and speed indicator on top of the wheel (Not like nikola voltmeter on the side)
11. Abjustable pedal angle.
12. Water resistance, smart BMS, and overall higher quality product. Enough gotway fires, we want safer wheels
13. LED lights like on nikola
 

[Rawnei]

3 minutes ago, Bomfy M said:

Hi there!
My first post  
@Inmotion Global this is my perfect wheel:
1. 16*3" tire
2. No suspension, because of weight savings
3. No speakers. More simple electronics, lighter wheel. If you need music just buy JBL speaker
4. Weight around 20kg, lighter is better
5. 1000wh battary. 
6. 2000w motor, and powerfull controller
7. I am not a speed deamon, so 40km/h is ok fo me. I prefer torque over speed
8. Round shape shell, for more shell protection if wheel overlean. Not like msx square shape or 16x. No sharp edges like tesla, more comfort wheel.
9. Power pads must come with the wheel. Almost evereyone buy aftermarket pads, so why not complete the product with what the buyer wants?
10. Battary indicator from v8/v10 and speed indicator on top of the wheel (Not like nikola voltmeter on the side)
11. Abjustable pedal angle.
12. Water resistance, smart BMS, and overall higher quality product. Enough gotway fires, we want safer wheels
13. LED lights like on nikola
 

So basically a V10F with minor changes 😂

[Kekafuch]

21 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

So basically a V10F with minor changes 😂

Which is about perfect for 85% of riders out there!  
 

[GoGeorgeGo]

2 hours ago, Kekafuch said:

Which is about perfect for 85% of riders out there!  
 

While i agree thats good for a large portion or riders, it would be silly to cannibalize your own sales by competing with one of your own models. They need to release a wheel in the upward performance category to compete with other companies. if they go lower performance, they need to develop something like an mten3 or an 18xl that isn't really competing with their previous models. 

[chroma]

I only want a new V12 that will work great like a v8f. I am so stressed out thinking that one day my bearing will start giving me problems after certain mileage. I do my best to not ride in the rain but it is stressful. I also would like to see more range than speed, and an easier way to swap out or change a flat tire. The v11 is not friendly that way.

[Tawpie]

47 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

cannibalize your own sales by competing with one of your own models

If you don’t do it, somebody else will. That’s a law near as I can tell.

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

If you don’t do it, somebody else will. That’s a law near as I can tell.

Others have , theres a ton of wheels already in the v10f class. Thats a market full of competition including their own product. They currently are not competing in the high end sales category is the point. 0% market share is easy to upgrade, is a new v10f going to increase your market share in that category? Or is it just going to transfer your v10f sales over to the new model and make the v10f obsolete?