INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[mike_bike_kite]

I prefer the idea of producing an alternative to the 18XL. The V10F is great for a lighter weight full size wheel but has limited range and speed. Inmotion has never had a longer range wheel and they can just use everything from the V11 to make one but just swap the suspension parts for a little extra battery. It would be nice to go back to more ordinary wheel bearings though.

[Jonny727272]

I don't like the idea of just a slightly better V10f. I'm hoping IM can make a competitor to the 16X or Nikola. One that has the same range, but with the fit and finish on an InMotion wheel. Would be especially cool to see the newer things the V11 brought come into it, such as the headlight and kickstand.

[Simply_Striking]

5 minutes ago, Jonny727272 said:

I don't like the idea of just a slightly better V10f. I'm hoping IM can make a competitor to the 16X or Nikola. One that has the same range, but with the fit and finish on an InMotion wheel. Would be especially cool to see the newer things the V11 brought come into it, such as the headlight and kickstand.

From their post in the official, it does have a kick stand. 

[AtlasP]

17 hours ago, Jonny727272 said:

I don't like the idea of just a slightly better V10f. I'm hoping IM can make a competitor to the 16X or Nikola. One that has the same range, but with the fit and finish on an InMotion wheel. Would be especially cool to see the newer things the V11 brought come into it, such as the headlight and kickstand.

I don't understand where comments like this ("slightly better V10F"?) come from. V12 is confirmed at 100v which must mean at least 35-40 mph (if the V11's hidden setting enables 35 mph on their last 84v wheel), a 16x3 tire (a la Nikola+ or KS-16X), a kickstand like the V11, will obviously have at least V11-class lights, and based on deduction from comments likely 1800-2700 Wh.

It sounds exactly like 100v Nik+ specs with V11 niceties (kickstand/lights/etc minus suspension)--which is absolutely nothing like the V10F.

Edited February 17, 2021 by AtlasP

[Jonny727272]

@AtlasPI was referring to this comment by @Bomfy M

 

Quote

Hi there!
My first post  
@Inmotion Global this is my perfect wheel:
1. 16*3" tire
2. No suspension, because of weight savings
3. No speakers. More simple electronics, lighter wheel. If you need music just buy JBL speaker
4. Weight around 20kg, lighter is better
5. 1000wh battary. 
6. 2000w motor, and powerfull controller
7. I am not a speed deamon, so 40km/h is ok fo me. I prefer torque over speed
8. Round shape shell, for more shell protection if wheel overlean. Not like msx square shape or 16x. No sharp edges like tesla, more comfort wheel.
9. Power pads must come with the wheel. Almost evereyone buy aftermarket pads, so why not complete the product with what the buyer wants?
10. Battary indicator from v8/v10 and speed indicator on top of the wheel (Not like nikola voltmeter on the side)
11. Abjustable pedal angle.
12. Water resistance, smart BMS, and overall higher quality product. Enough gotway fires, we want safer wheels
13. LED lights like on nikola 

 

I'm confident we will not get a V10f with the wheel being 100v and all the other rumors. I was just commenting on this guy's post.

[Finn Bjerke]

I totally agree with  mike_bike_kite 
The competition have problems, and a V12 could be a V11 with no suspension and some more battery would be a very good mid sized wheel. The modern overall Inmotion build qaulity is superior to the other wheels on the marked and the tires are not flying off. (huge advantage..)   But the Hollow motor problem with vulnurable oversized bearings needs to be adressed ...   18" tire is better than 16" Methinks.

I hope suspension wheels will stay on the marked. But that is not a V12 issue. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Finn Bjerke

[gon2fast]

1 hour ago, Finn Bjerke said:

and the tires are not flying off. (huge advantage.

My goodness, which one of your wheels did this happen to?

[Chronic]

Hello, I am sharing the new features for theInmotion V12.
Disclaimer: This content may be changed by the manufacturer at any time.

The Inmotion V12 EUC is basically 18x3.0 inches and is a non-suspension product with a hollow motor applied.

The nominal voltage will be 87.6V, which is the same as the 100V lineup as BEGODE

The battery capacity is 24S4P 20Ah(1750Wh). This is a pack of LG M50T or SAMSUNG 50E cells.

The basic motor power is 2500W.

The product weighs about 64 pounds.

An LCD display similar to that of Sherman will be installed.

Quad headlights will be used as well.

You'll soon have information about the official V12.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Chronic

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 hour ago, Chronic said:

Hello, I am sharing the new features for theInmotion V12.
Disclaimer: This content may be changed by the manufacturer at any time.

The Inmotion V12 EUC is basically 18 inches and is a non-suspension product with a hollow motor applied.

The nominal voltage will be 87.6V, which is the same as the 100V lineup as BEGODE

The battery capacity is 24S4P 20Ah(1750Wh). This is a pack of LG M50T or SAMSUNG 50E cells.

The basic motor power is 2500W.

The product weighs about 64 pounds.

An LCD display similar to that of Sherman will be installed.

Quad headlights will be used as well.

You'll soon have information about the official V12.

Oof , honestly i hope this info is wrong. A 1750wh battery is barely an upgrade over the v11. And its only 5 pounds lighter even without suspension? Hardly call that a Sherman competitor, sounds more like an MSP. 

Im sure it will be Inmotions fastest wheel but ill be shocked if it touches 50 mph like the Sherman and Monster Pro. And with half the range? 

Im having a hard time imagining the price that this wheel will sell at. For 2k you might as well get the suspension system benefits. Or if you need the extra speed, the Sherman is only 2850$. The RS is only 2200$ so i guess that has to be the target pricing. 

I was really expecting a 2700wh battery, im glad it is a 100v wheel, but very suprised its such a mild improvement performance wise. 

Im sure it will be a beautiful wheel but my initial reaction to those specs is extremely underwhelming

[.....]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:18 AM, Finn Bjerke said:

I totally agree with  mike_bike_kite 
The competition have problems, and a V12 could be a V11 with no suspension and some more battery would be a very good mid sized wheel. The modern overall Inmotion build qaulity is superior to the other wheels on the marked and the tires are not flying off. (huge advantage..)   But the Hollow motor problem with vulnurable oversized bearings needs to be adressed ...   18" tire is better than 16" Methinks.

I hope suspension wheels will stay on the marked. But that is not a V12 issue. 

Modern overall build quality is superior, but the MAIN BEARING that supports load and rotation, is fail? Cmon now, lets not overlook the obvious just so we can claim its superior. Maybe on par, but I dont find ANY of these recent wheels to be 'superior' in enough fashion we can even make such claims. Tires flying off? I KNOW what you are referring to, but it seems a fixation and slight exaggeration.

From what I can gather, theres nothing much new to see here. Wheels are adding complexities and suspensions but still failing in the bigger picture. BUILD QUALITY is the bigger picture, and one could flip a coin to decide who's actualy winning in that race. Hell, is it even something to celebrate, when a race is won by a turtle that isnt quite as slow as the rest on a particular day?

The newest v12 specs I'm seeing, arent anything to get excited about. Just more of the same we already have. Im a pessimist, but i DOUBT they will bother making the newest v12 a VAST jump in quality. I hope they prove me wrong, as the specs indicate they are building something we've seen before and the competition has already made as well. If they are remaking the same basic design, MAYBE they'll decide to make it to high standards? Yeah, unlikely. Best we can hope for is a minor improvement over whats already been proven. I'd be more excited if they WERENT releasing another wheel and I could assume they were devoting more resources to convince me that a v11 version 2, NEEDS be in my storage next spring.

I wonder if the reason we are paying thru the nose for mediocre toys, is because of an insane markup? I'm REALLY curious how much these things REALLY cost to manufacture. Adding a few dollars to increase quality, doenst mean its an exponential increase in price. Is there any REAL competition between these companies? I dont understand the Chinese company structure at all.

Edited February 23, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Wheels are adding complexities and suspensions but still failing in the bigger picture. BUILD QUALITY is the bigger picture

The hollow bore bearing issue doesn’t seem to be related to build quality, or even component quality. An experienced EUC repairman put quality SKF bearings on a V11, just to have them fail after a few hundred km as well.

It does seem like this suggested reason might have merit: When installed in a hollow bore motor, the outer race of the bearing is rotating instead of the inner one, which guides the grease away from where it should be. Normal orientation would instead push it back where it belongs.

[.....]

20 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The hollow bore bearing issue doesn’t seem to be related to build quality, or even component quality. An experienced EUC repairman put quality SKF bearings on a V11, just to have them fail after a few hundred km as well.

It does seem like this suggested reason might have merit: When installed in a hollow bore motor, the outer race of the bearing is rotating instead of the inner one, which guides the grease away from where it should be. Normal orientation would instead push it back where it belongs.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Not designing a bearing that can handle the enviroment, speeds and loads is what i would consider a component quality issue. Its almost as if NOONE on earth has figured out a way to keep a bearing properly sealed and greased with the miniscule loading that an euc will encounter? 50mph in the world of bearings is pathetic. If it aint the bearing, its the build quality of the seat that holds the race. Or its the lack of specs during pressing. No matter how you slice it, failing to incorporate a suitable bearing for the ONLY rotating axle IS a quality issue. If you cant make ANY bearing work, then obviously your design is flawed beyond the bearing itself. Caged roller and ball bearings and have been working for decades on much larger vehicles. Testing bearings is also an old technology. "Here maam, your new car is all ready to buy. Nah, dont worry that the wheel bearing won't survive, the REST of your car is great. You've got AAA right? Sure we offer a warranty, youll just have to ship it back to China and we'll reinstall the same exact sh**."

Edited February 23, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Rawnei]

Quality of bearing wont matter because it's protected by a small rubber seal which is not enough at all, need better sealing on the outside of the bearing like the 3D printed seals with waterproof grease.

[Tasku]

Can't wait to see what the wheel is like. Anyone else waiting to see the visual look of the wheel? Let's see what inmotion can produce.

V12 might hit a good spot. The weight of the wheel is lil high but if the build quality is better than RS, MSP, KS16.. well this might turn out to be the goto wheel, we end up recommending for new drivers. After they learn the basics that is.

Looking the specs given and knowing inmotion has best software and hopefully soon the best smart BMS, this could be the new goto wheel. I hope this is with smart BMS.. please?

Looking at numbers alone and analysing can be misleading . I wonder how far we are from first reviews and the teardown videos?

There could be benefit of less maintenance needs for a wheel that does not have suspension.

Inmotion has some proofing to do to convince they perfecting the hollow motor and bearing related problems. I think all those problems gonna be matter of trial and error. I wonder if this is the wheel to show these things are past problems nothing to worry anymore.

I am not a first batch buyer but wanna keep eye on this wheel fo sure.

[mike_bike_kite]

18 minutes ago, Tasku said:

knowing inmotion has best software

Why do you think their software is better than KS, Gotway/Begode or Veteran?

[Jonny727272]

5 hours ago, Tasku said:

I hope this is with smart BMS.. please?

What is this smart BMS you're talking about?

I only know about the esk8 company, Exway, that have a smart BMS where it'll drain the battery down to 80% if not used in a week. And that is quite the niche use IMO.

[Zopper]

59 minutes ago, Jonny727272 said:

What is this smart BMS you're talking about?

I only know about the esk8 company, Exway, that have a smart BMS where it'll drain the battery down to 80% if not used in a week. And that is quite the niche use IMO.

What I expect from a smart BMS is:

• Better health info and monitoring, ideally per cell (right now, I think that only Ninebot gives better information than "whole pack voltage")
• Smart cell balancing that's happening all the time and not only at 100% charge.
• Performance limitation based on battery health (alarm levels gradually shifting down as the battery gets older)

Draining it to 80% after a week if not used is something that would be nice, but it's far, far less important than those points, IMO.

[Tawpie]

7 minutes ago, Zopper said:

Smart cell balancing that's happening all the time and not only at 100% charge.

This would be very nice, not sure how the cost/benefit would work out but on paper it's an excellent thought that should spark internal discussion (still might be a moot point though given the current lifespan of a properly maintained pack)

 

8 minutes ago, Zopper said:

Performance limitation based on battery health (alarm levels gradually shifting down as the battery gets older)

I suspect that my KS does this already based on the voltage-triggered max speed reduction. A tired battery will reach that threshold sooner, but the threshold is constant.

 

10 minutes ago, Zopper said:

Better health info and monitoring, ideally per cell (right now, I think that only Ninebot gives better information than "whole pack voltage")

Given that changing out a single cell from a pack is, well, not for the faint of heart I'm not sure this does much other than warn us that the pack as a whole is in trouble. Perhaps it could help for warranty claims because you might be able to catch a bad pack before the 6 months went by.

[FullTilt]

On 2/1/2021 at 6:33 AM, FullTilt said:

If you had to buy a mid-sized non-suspension wheel today, what would be the top choice given a decent sample size of enthusiasts, and what might that imply?

Setting aside the oft-mentioned Veteran (which might be disqualified due to weight and size for the category), I'd say the true comp is the MS(X,P)/RS, with speed being the main reason for its popularity, so much so people are willing to sacrifice build-quality and integrity of electronics/battery.

I think Inmotion build quality and safety will be a given, and if indeed no suspension, the thing they must maximize to the best of their ability is speed, really.

If it were up to me, I'd make it an 18" wheel. With even the suspension wheels being >18", riding fast on a 16" wheel today might prove a squirrel-ly experience. And being without suspension, weight savings can be spent on the slight size increase wisely.

 

Surprised at this given the 16" rumors. But smart choice from a company perspective to go 18" where the market opportunity is (if they indeed dethrone the MS(X,P)/RS) IMHO as the other performance alternatives are going bigger, wider and heavier. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by FullTilt

[Zopper]

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

This would be very nice, not sure how the cost/benefit would work out but on paper it's an excellent thought that should spark internal discussion (still might be a moot point though given the current lifespan of a properly maintained pack)

“Properly” is the keyword. It would certainly keep the batteries alive longer for the 80%-people.   

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I suspect that my KS does this already based on the voltage-triggered max speed reduction. A tired battery will reach that threshold sooner, but the threshold is constant.

True, I didn’t realize that.

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Given that changing out a single cell from a pack is, well, not for the faint of heart I'm not sure this does much other than warn us that the pack as a whole is in trouble. Perhaps it could help for warranty claims because you might be able to catch a bad pack before the 6 months went by.

Yes, this is purely for detecting problems before they kill the whole pack and take you down with them.

[AtlasP]

The mental gymnastics/shifting goalposts here are so blatant and regularly occurring they have become cliche.

For years all everyone talked about here was "yay 100v MSX/MSP/100v Nikola+ speeds & ~1800Wh batteries" and "boo 84v InMotion & King Song speeds & smaller batteries". And "sure InMotion has nice construction/polish/safety... for girls/kids, but just doesn't hit <aforementioned specs that are supposedly where the baseline should be>".

Well the V12 is essentially 100v MSX/MSP/RS/Nik+ speeds & battery size--which everyone said was the standard we should measure by--coupled with InMotion fit & finish.

Yes, I understand the Sherman came out and supposedly "changed everything". Except the majority of even enthusiasts (let alone 'average' riders) don't necessarily want or need Sherman speeds or range, and/or they don't want something that is *so heavy*, and/or they don't or can't spend close to $3k.

With the utter collapse in public perception surrounding Begode the past ~year, and Veteran failing to provide a more mainstream MSP/RS-class device (weight & price), the market is utterly perfect for a new 100v MSP/RS/Nik+ competitor with similar speeds & range and a sub-$2200 price. (There's a reason old-stock MSP's are in such demand since the RS debacle.) In fact such would immediately be poised to become the go-to baseline higher-speed enthusiast recommendation for all-but the 3% who actually want & can afford the Sherman.

Edit: this would once again be InMotion building *to the market*. After the largest segments of the market they already own, the 100v MSP/RS/Nik+ product category is the next single-largest market segment remaining. They're literally just going down the list of product categories in order by market size.

Edited February 25, 2021 by AtlasP

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

The mental gymnastics/shifting goalposts here are so blatant and regularly occurring they have become cliche.

For years all everyone talked about here was "yay 100v MSX/MSP/100v Nikola+ speeds & ~1800Wh batteries" and "boo 84v InMotion & King Song speeds & smaller batteries". And "sure InMotion has nice construction/polish/safety... for girls/kids, but just doesn't hit <aforementioned specs that are supposedly where the baseline should be>".

Well the V12 is essentially 100v MSX/MSP/RS/Nik+ speeds & battery size--which everyone said was the standard we should measure by--coupled with InMotion fit & finish.

Yes, I understand the Sherman came out and supposedly "changed everything". Except the majority of even enthusiasts don't necessarily want or need Sherman speeds or range, and/or they don't want something that is *so heavy*, and/or they don't or can't spend close to $3k.

With the utter collapse in public perception surrounding Begode the past ~year, and Veteran failing to provide a more mainstream MSP/RS-class device (weight & price), the market is utterly perfect for a new 100v MSP/RS/Nik+ competitor with similar speeds & range and a sub-$2200 price. (There's a reason old-stock MSP's are in such demand since the RS debacle.) In fact such would immediately be poised to become the go-to baseline higher-speed enthusiast recommendation for all-but the 3% who actually want & can afford the Sherman.

Edit: this would once again be InMotion building *to the market*. After the largest segments of the market they already own, the 100v MSP/RS/Nik+ product category is the next single-largest market segment remaining. They're literally just going down the list of product categories in order by market size.

I agree with everything you said, except the reason im disappointed isnt because the v12 isnt a Sherman. Its because Inmotion said it was a sherman competitor. I was expecting if nothing else a huge sherman esque battery even if the speed wasnt there. The v12 sounds like a fantastic wheel, everyone loves the 100v gotways and im sure the v12 will be super popular. But to me this release is just under whelming for where my expectations where.

In hindsight, it makes sense from a fiscal perspective as the MSX market is probably larger than the Moster pro/Sherman market. But i was looking for the most buzz more than the most profitable wheel

Will be very interesting to see what Kingsongs answer is to this release 

[Silver]

47 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I agree with everything you said, except the reason im disappointed isnt because the v12 isnt a Sherman. Its because Inmotion said it was a sherman competitor.

I don't know if Inmotion even really knows what the V12 is going to be yet. They apparently haven't even come to a conclusion on what battery size they will be using yet

 

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, AtlasP said:

The mental gymnastics/shifting goalposts here are so blatant and regularly occurring they have become cliche.

People want something new. What IM does may be perfectly fine and a great business move in terms of expected sales, but it does not look like something really new (speed, power, fancy new feature, etc. - the usual enthusiast metrics). So some people will express that.

[AtlasP]

13 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

People want something new. What IM does may be perfectly fine and a great business move in terms of expected sales, but it does not look like something really new (speed, power, fancy new feature, etc. - the usual enthusiast metrics). So some people will express that.

I think Gotway-class 100v performance in a mainstream form (55-65 lbs & low $2k's), without Gotway (not to mention with InMotion production values), is something completely new.

If you think about it, I bet only ~half of the hype with the Sherman was "holy-sh1t the top speed & range", but probably half of it or more was just "100v perf from anyone other than Gotway, thank g-d". I still think Veteran should be making their own MSP/RS competitor if they really want to build any reasonable marketshare (not instead of the Sherman line, but in addition to).